Prophecy

[Paul L]

So this way of looking at end times prophecy has nothing to do with the Jews or the country of Israel?  It is only about the church?  And the time of Jacob's trouble somehow refers to the church?  Why call it Jacob's trouble, then?

I guess this makes sense of the Left Behind Series. They make it all about the church, too.   But, I'm not sure what the point is of putting a mature church through the great tribulation.  [Left behind series doesn't, the church is gone by the time of the tribulation]. Plus,maybe this is heaven on earth to the Catholic church, but...I can't see where this is the millenium reign of Christ.  He rules in the hearts and minds of his servants, but the rest of the world bows to Satan. 

The numbers will never make sense to me under this interpretation.  They only make sense to me if you are counting real days between one event and another.

But, thanks, Doug for the lengthy explanation.

Molly, I share your sentiments. You ask yourself: Did God really intend for us to come up with such complicated explanations for something in his word that should be simply understood? You wonder who dreams this stuff up.

It is simple to understand the church age as the Apostle Paul explained it, that for a time God's promises to Israel are put on hold until the "full complement" of Christians of the Christian church age is finished, Rom 11:25-30 makes this very clear that a hardening has come in part upon Israel until the full number of Gentiles have been saved, after this unspecified period of time the church is removed & Israel comes back into His favor again & the 70th week of Daniel begins at a time we cannot calculate from any numbers found in the Bible. Christ says only His father knows the length of those days, but for some reason that doesn't stop men from trying to do it anyway.

[Molly]

When I seek the meaning of "Jacob" I understand it is what Israel was called before the transfiguration brought by God when He wrestled with him all the night through. I consider it (Jacob) to be the man of God in his incarnated human (born of Adam) nature.

Yes, exactly.  He is Jacob before he becomes Israel.  If you read Romans 9, 10, and 11, and try to get to the heart of what Paul is saying there, he is beating his breast about Jacob, his brothers the Jews, who are not yet the Israel of God because they have rejected the Messiah.



 

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

--Rom 9



But, we see by Romans 11, he is telling us, they have been blinded for a while so that the Gentiles can be brought into the family of God.  After that, they will be grafted back into their own tree.  And, so, all Israel will be saved.  This is an end time prophecy Paul is making here.  It is in the time of Jacob's trouble that they are grafted back in [in my opinion] because the Way is tribulation ['narrow']



23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

--Rom 11



Verses 26 and 27 of Rom 11 is a direct reference to the prophecy made in the Old Testament about the house of Judah in the end times and how they will be brought into the New Covenant.  Paul tells us the house of Judah will remain Jacob until they are grafted back in at the end of the age [when the fulness of the Gentiles has been achieved].



20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
-- Isa 59



5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.  Rom 9:5


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
--Rom 11



It's all about covenant, covenant, covenant.

[WhiteWings]

1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days

Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap  month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.

Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.

A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.

So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.

[Molly]

Does something like this have any interest?


The Fall Feasts of Israel
The Feast of Trumpets will mark
day one of the 70th Week of Daniel;
Seven years later the Day of Atonement
will usher in the last day of this age.

Tishrei 1 <- - - - - - - - 7 years - - - - - - - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - - - 86 moons + 10 days - - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - 7 Biblical yrs. + 30 days - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 < - - - (7 x 360) + 30 days - - - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - - - - 2520 + 30 days - - - - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - The 70th Week + 30 days - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - - 1260 + 1260 + 30 days - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - - - - 1260 + 1290 days - - - - > Tishrei 10


Tishrei 1 <- - - - - - - - 2550 days - - - - - - > Tishrei 10


http://endtimepilgrim.org/fallfeasts.htm

[Doug]

Doug,

You're a Preterist right? Maybe not a strict one, but close?

No, not even close.

The arguments I gave about the three and a half years of prophecy not being a natural three and a half years discredit the preterist approach just as much as the futurist one, as both views assume these are a literal three and a half years. some preterists claim that the 42 months when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles [Rev. 11:2] means the years 66-70 A.D. but that does not work, because it was only at the end of that time, when the siege ended and the temple was destroyed, that the Romans gained entry to the city; before that they were camped on the hills round about. Their dates would only be plausible if the city was trampled by Gentiles for the whole period 66-70 A.D. and if that ceased to be the case at the end of the period. But the city was occupied by Gentiles for much of the past 19 centuries.

The 42 months, 1,260 days, and three and a half days mentioned in Revelation 11 are all periods that fit the pattern "a time, times and a half." Similarly the numbers given by Daniel fit the same pattern.

1,290 days = 13 × 30 + 2 × 12 × 30 + ½ × 12 × 30
1,335 days = 12 × 30 + 2 × 13 × 30 + ½ × 13 × 30

Richard Bauckham wrote, referring to the time periods in Revelation:

Just as Daniel 12:7 answers the question, 'How long?' (12:6), so the angel in Revelation implicitly responds to the question 'How long?' which has been in the reader's mind since it was raised by the martyrs in 6:10. The answer is that there is now to be no more delay before the final period which will bring in the Kingdom, the Danielic 'time, times and half a time.' Probably, in chapter 10 we are at John's and his first readers' present: the final period is about to begin in the immediate future. Thus the content of the scroll is 'what must soon take place.' (1:1; 22:6). But the scroll will give no more information about the length of the final period than was already given by Daniel. John clearly uses the period of three and a half years indicated by Daniel as a symbolic, not literal, expression for the final period.

[The Climax of Prophecy: Studies on the Book of Revelation. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark. Continuum International Publishing Group, 1998. p. 262.]

Doug

Creation Concept




 

[Doug]

1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days

Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap  month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.

Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.

A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.

So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.

Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.

Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.   



Doug

Creation Concept

[Paul L]

Doug,

OK, because you have stated your position is not that of Preterism, one thing I am really curious about: What is your viewpoint about the the "message" sent to the seven ecclesias at the opening of the Day of the Lord as it is written in Rev 1:10-11?

Do you have a definition for "Day of the Lord" & when it occurs? I understand the  Preterist position on this, I just want to see if you differ from their viewpoint in any significant or meaningful way.

[WhiteWings]

1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days

Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap  month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.

Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.

A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.

So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.

Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.

Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.   



Doug

Creation Concept

If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.

[Doug]

1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days

Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap  month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.

Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.

A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.

So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.

Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.

Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.   



Doug

Creation Concept

If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.

Those who doubt whether the numbers are symbolic, are like the children who are not in the picture below. 

They have not begun to get off the ground.

The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.

All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.

Doug

Creation Concept

[Molly]

If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.

Prove it?  We have to prove our theories?   I don't know how we're ever gonna do that.


 

Official: Egypt tells Israel tanks needed in Sinai
The Associated Press

Tuesday, Aug. 28, 2012 | 12:09 a.m.

In the first direct contact with his Israeli counterpart since taking office, Egypt's new defense minister defended his country's increased military presence in the Sinai Peninsula, saying it is needed to fight terrorism and is temporary, Egyptian officials said Saturday.



Syria crisis: Fighting rages around Damascus – Tuesday 28 August 2012
• Leaflets dropped over Damascus warn of 'inevitable death'



Iran will never stop uranium enrichment: envoy
(AFP)–6 hours ago
TEHRAN — Iran "will never stop" its controversial uranium enrichment, the country's envoy to the IAEA said on Tuesday, on the sidelines of a Non-Aligned Movement ministerial meeting in Tehran.

"Our enrichment activities will never stop and we are justified in carrying them out, and we will continue to do so under IAEA supervision," Ali Asghar Soltanieh told reporters.

[Paul L]

The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.

All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.

Doug

So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of  men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity. Followers of the concept of "literalism" have been under attack by the Catholic church ever since the pope assumed its' headship & declared it to be the one true church. The tides of time are however swinging strongly in the other direction, away from the teachings that the Catholic Church inherited the promises given to Israel, even many Catholics don't believe this anymore, thankfully.

[Doug]

***MOD NOTE - APPARENT SYSTEM ERROR - THIS POST IS ACTUALLY reFORMer's, NOT DOUG'S

The claims that the prophetic 42 months of Revelation 11:2, when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles, refers to a literal three and a half years, and that the 1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 are literal days, were promoted by the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) in his commentary on Revelation, called In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij. He proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest apply to a yet future period of three and a half literal years, immediately prior to the second coming of Christ. Thus, he said, none of the book of Revelation applies to the church in the present age. He was followed by another Jesuit, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine. Some of their doctrines were picked up by J. N. Darby and Wm. Kelly and others, and incorporated into the theory known as dispensationalism. They all claimed the antichrist is a single individual human yet to appear.

About a hundred years after the Reformation the Roman Church studied, counciled, and tried to counteract the effect of the Reformation.  Ribera (or, Ribiera) was a counter-reformation propagandist writing to take incendiary nature of the reformers use of Revelation's symbology off the Papacy.  Gene Edwards has pointed out what they decided had been done wrong and must be corrected.  There were too many naked statues in Churches, so they went around attaching fig leaves to all the statuary.  The other thing was to little education for those in the orders.  So they created seminaries.  Hopefully you will remember the connection between fig leaves and Seminaries.

[Paul L]

The holy city in Revelation 11:2 is not the earthly Jerusalem, which John would not have referred to as holy; he was clearly thinking of the church, the heavenly city. The Jerusalem to which prophecy applies has rivers of living water flowing from it,

To say that the literal city is meant, and that it will be literally raised up tectonically "above the hills" leads to contradictions, and absurd conclusions.

The Jerusalem to which Isaiah's prophecies apply, after Jesus ascended to heaven, is the church, not the earthly city.

Doug

So, in Rev 11:2 is described a city whose outside perimeter is given to the Gentiles to trample under for 42 months. During this time two witnesses make their prophecies for 1260 days & then are killed inside that city (vs.8). Then after 3 1/2 days their bodies are raised up & they ascend into heaven. So, why are they being raised up inside a city that you claim is the heavenly city & upon their resurrection after laying in the streets of that city for 3 1/2 days they are transported to heaven (vs. 12). The scriptural context is clearly stating the opposite of your claims  concerning where this city is located. If this were the heavenly city how is it the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend to a place where they already are? And all this mayhem is occurring inside a heavenly place? That's Preterism I guess, nothing is real.

Doug, when did the Millenium end? When did it start?

[Doug]

***MOD NOTE - APPARENT SYSTEM ERROR - THIS POST IS ACTUALLY reFORMer's, NOT DOUG'S

Some quotes referring to the 2 witnesses. . .

The holy city in Revelation 11:2 is not the earthly Jerusalem, which John would not have referred to as holy; he was clearly thinking of the church, the heavenly city. The Jerusalem to which prophecy applies has rivers of living water flowing from it,
_________________________________________
So, in Rev 11:2 is described a city whose outside perimeter is given to the Gentiles to trample under for 42 months. During this time two witnesses make their prophecies for 1260 days & then
_________________________________________
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
_________________________________________
God is the glory of the holy city, not of Sodom, or of Egypt, or of the great city of vs. 8 where the dead bodies of the two witnesses lie unburied. I suggest that these two witnesses are symbolic of the Word of God, and the Spirit, or Comforter, which are two things Jesus said will "testify" of him.
_________________________________________
Again, the city where the witnesses lie unburied for three days and a half is not the holy city, which represents salvation, but the world, mystical Babylon. They witness, even when dead. Then they come to life. This could have something to do with a fresh, non-literal interpretation, that gives them new meaning, and inspires confidence in God's people.
_________________________________________

So often Moses and Elijah are presumed to be the 2 witnesses.  As a youngster I wondered why we weren't thought to have enough billions of people, we had to re-run a couple of old ones.  I tend to think it is some completely new men of God whose ministries have areas in accordance with others, like the two I'm about to mention.

Think though about these popular two.  Moses, for instance, had another who was raised up under him and  was his replacement.  Moses brought the people out; but, Joshua brought the people in.  Elijah had a protege that obtained a double of the anointing on Elijah.  Elysha had twice as many miracles recorded as happening in his ministry.  Elysha's greatness is also demonstrated by his ability to delegate authority.  Elijah basically had to do everything himself.  Elysha involved others in the work of the Holy Spirit with him. 

Elijah and Moses were for their day.  Perhaps for the day of the transition into the Millennium there will be many even planet wide men of God to make the nations believe and be obedient to the Lord.  Possibly they will reflect the ministries of Joshua and Elysha rather than their precursors.

[Paul L]

All I can say further to you Doug is that you are a willing & capable debater. I'm an engineer, and if I were to follow your blueprint to understanding 1/3 of the Bible & juxtapose the same methodology of reasoning about words & contexts in following blueprints for construction of a building, there is no doubt in my mind such a building could not be constructed. And this is the problem with Preterism, it renders 1/3 of the Bible meaningless as a guide to the future of Israel & to some extent even as a guide for those who compose the Body of Christ.

[Molly]

Notes from book of Daniel

The Maskilim
found four times in dan 11 and 12
their role is decisive in the end times


Maskilim is a Hebrew word that literally means "enlightened ones" (Hebrew plural of Maskil). "Strong's Concordance" shows:

7919 sakal saw-kal' a primitive root; to be (causatively, make or act) circumspect and hence, intelligent:–consider, expert, instruct, prosper, (deal) prudent(-ly), (give) skill(-ful), have good success, teach, (have, make to) understand(-ing), wisdom, (be, behave self, consider, make) wise(- ly), guide wittingly.

Our use of the word stems from Daniel's use of it in these passages (Dan 11:33; 12:3, 10). In these verses it is translated "They that understand," "They that be wise," etc.

Mat 24:15 Jesus commands us to read chapter 11 of daniel

Maskilim are prophetic witnesses of the gospel to Jewish people in the end times
they are sovereignly ordained watchmen on the walls

Isa 62
They see what's on the horizon that the others don't see and announce it
maskilim have a clear role in their watchman function
They give man and God no rest

Disciples ask, What are the signs of the end of the age and your return?
Jesus quotes Daniel 11 and tells them to go read and understand

Israel's final suffering and salvation gets more airtime in the major and minor prophets than any other prophecy

dan 11:21-22 the emergence of the antichrist. a sinistre, vile, despicable man. He comes to his end in verses 44, 45, 46
This is about the generation of Jesus' return.
This has not been fulfilled.
Jesus tells us all the signs of the end of the age in Mat 24, and he quotes Dan 11 and commands us to go read it

the rage against the holy covenant is mentioned four times in dan 11 and we are told this is in the final generation before Jesus returns. This man who emerges will be moved with rage against the holy covenant. He sets up the abomination that causes desolation and goes out to destroy and annihilate many.

Dan 12 we are told these things will end when the power of the holy people is completely shattered.

Jesus--when you see Dan 11:31 then there will be a time of great trouble

Dan 12:11-- from the time the abomination of desolation is set up there will be 1290 days until it ends. We are told here this is the end of the age.

The abomination of desolation continues until the end of the age--this is the last 3.5 years. This tribulation ends with the salvation of Israel and the resurrection of the dead in dan 12:1,2

Dan 11 tells us the signs that lead up to the abomination. The same man that emerges in verse 21 is the man who sets up the abomination in verse 31.

This is the desolation of Jerusalem at the hand of foreign armies. Jesus himself indicated this invasion to be the primary sign of his return--Let the reader understand
this includes the expulsion of the Jewish people from Jerusalem and Judea
This is the time of the end

When Jerusalem is desolate you can start counting down the days to the end

all the nations of the earth will gather against it
Joel 3--I will gather all the nations and bring them down to Judea
Nations descending upon Judea
the land is being divided, the Jewish people scattered, and children sold into slavery

Rev 16
water of Euphrates is dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the east
this is the sixth judgment
demonic spirits performing signs go abroad to the kings of the earth to assemble them at the place called Armageddon. from here they will march into Jerusalem. From Iraq, Iran, Syria to the plain of Meggido where they will gather to march into Jerusalem

Zech 12
all nations gathering against the city of Jerusalem

Dan 12
this age ends with the desolation of Jerusalem
Rage against the holy covenant

the desolation of Jerusalem in Dan 11:21 is the result of Gentile rage against the covenant that God made with Abraham.

But the people who know their God will stand firm against the antichrist.
The central role of the maskilim is
mentioned four times in Daniel 11 and 12

a Hebrew word that refers to the wise in the land and out of the land
Most will be out of the land
They will be led by two witnesses
The world literally means: the enlightened ones
One who has understanding, wisdom, one who is able to guide, the anointed discerning ones who instruct many. A prophetic company of anointed teachers.

Maskilim mentioned in
Dan 11:33, 35
Dan 12:3, and Dan 12:10

The antichrist will seduce with flatteries those who do violence against the land
The maskilim among the people will make many understand. They are instructing the masses before and after the abomination is set up and minister to people about what is taking place.


For some days they will stumble by sword and by flame and by captivity and by plunder. The final prophetic witnesses before the return of Jesus is in context of unprecedented violence and falling in martyrdom.

Some of the maskilim shall stumble so that they may be refined, purified, and made white until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed consummation. This is referred to in Rev 6: how long until you avenge our blood?

Jesus will not come until the fulness of the martyrs have come in --Rev 6. Martyrdom is a central reality in the time before Jesus return. The church will refuse to stand idle in the time of Jacob's trouble. They will stand against the antichrist.

After the resurrection,  the maskilim shall shine like the brightness of the sky above, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

The words of Daniel are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly, none of the wicked will understand, but the maskilim will understand.
Maskilim is a company of believers who are anointed at this end time hour to primarily minister to Israel.

Isa 28 speaks of those with a stammering tongue and a foreign accent declaring rest to those under the scourge in Jerusalem. A Gentile people speaking rest to a suffering Jewish people. To be a witness to the Gentiles and the Jews during Jacob's trouble will be a last day's martyr testimony which will say the word of God says this to the nations, the witness will be so powerful that to deny it would be to embrace delusion. If people do not believe it, it will be because of the rage in their heart to resist the prophetic word which is being fullfilled right before their very eyes.

The church has a function at the end of the age in context to the desolation of Jerusalem and rage against the holy covenant, and at this time the Maskilim will instruct many and turn many to righteousness.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

--Rom 11

[Molly]

Isaiah 49:16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.

Isaiah 60:18 No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders, but you will call your walls Salvation and your gates Praise.

Jeremiah 33:9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.'

Zephaniah 3:19 At that time I will deal with all who oppressed you; I will rescue the lame and gather those who have been scattered. I will give them praise and honor in every land where they were put to shame.

[WhiteWings]

If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.

Prove it?  We have to prove our theories?   I don't know how we're ever gonna do that.

That's not my problem :P
What I see in this thread is people unable to solve a puzzle. Instead of admitting the puzzle is to hard for them they resort to excuses like "it's symbolic".
For some it may give a certain peace having 'solved' the puzzle. For me the solution is equal to claiming it's about the next elections. Based on nothing. Useless.
While I don't reject symbolic meanings, on the contrary there are many in the Bible, they can only be used if they are backed up by some proof, a pattern, etc.

Theories are good. They are a starting point for proof. Not an end point.

[WhiteWings]

1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days

Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap  month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.

Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.

A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.

So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.

Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.

Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.   



Doug

Creation Concept

If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.

Those who doubt whether the numbers are symbolic, are like the children who are not in the picture below. 

They have not begun to get off the ground.

The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.

All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.

Doug

Creation Concept

Children who see the above as an answer to this thread are not in the tree. They are way below the roots of the tree. Unknowing. Blinded. Easily led of track by false docrtrines.

When Molly started this thread before the forum crash she stated she her aim was outlines and not drilling down deep into each verse.
That was a red flag for me. I stayed out of this thread. Unfortunately I couldn't resist participating.

This, imo, is exactly why Christiananity has become a zillion denomination mess.
People didn't have the guts to admit they don't know. So they come up with unproven theories.

Again nothing wrong with theories, but passing them of as proof I strongly reject. I guess I'm the girl way up in the tree. I at least know I don't know. But I would rather be the girl with her feet on the ground.

[WhiteWings]

So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of  men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity.

An even more portentous vanity, IMO, is the claim by some that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. What a monstrous idea that is! There can be no gap, as claimed by the dispensationalists, as time has no gaps!

Time has no gaps. But clocks can be stopped. I think we see that in the OT wher at places mentioned years don't add up.
I'm not saying it's the same for the topic of this thread. I just keep the possibility open.

[Doug]

So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of  men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity.

An even more portentous vanity, IMO, is the claim by some that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. What a monstrous idea that is! There can be no gap, as claimed by the dispensationalists, as time has no gaps!

Time has no gaps. But clocks can be stopped. I think we see that in the OT wher at places mentioned years don't add up.
I'm not saying it's the same for the topic of this thread. I just keep the possibility open.

Clocks made by men can be stopped, but the 70th weeks prophecy is not a clock made by men. God made the heavens, and the motions of planets, the sun and moon, the period of the earth's rotation, are things by which we measure time. There are many periodic events, independent of each other, that we can use. We can be confident that time has no gaps. Men's theories have gaps. Dispensationalism asserts that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, but that is a theory. It is not rock solid. It is just clouds and mists, mere opinion.

There is no scripture that says God "stopped the clock" in the 70 weeks. And the prophet Amos said, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." [Amos 3:7]

Doug

Creation Concept

[Paul L]

Clocks made by men can be stopped, but the 70th weeks prophecy is not a clock made by men.

Doug

And clocks made by God in heaven can be stopped as well. If men are capable of creating & starting & stopping clocks, there is little doubt in my mind God has the same capability & that is exactly what he did at the end of the 69th week when he told Daniel to close the books until a future prophet unknown to Daniel would reopen them on the Day of the Lord (Rev 1-10-11), when John's letter to the 7 endtime ecclesias are read inside their synagogues on the opening day of the 70th week.

[sheila]

'I beleive"  that 1945 the establishement of the nation of Israel was a 'sign in the earth"  I beleive little Israel surrounded by enemy nations

  is a portent of gog's surroundment[4 quarters of earth] of the restored spiritual camp city.  the wicked encompass the righteous..and therefore justice does not

  go forth..  the signs in the heavens..signify spiritual Isreal/Christ..birth of the manchild snatched up to the throne....

     the saints werte overcome and trampled...a house divided can not stand..thus the many denominations of Christianity..the devouring of one another

    the parting of His garments to the 4 quarters of heaven

    there is a seamless gaarment of one...an inner garment...an inner man renewed day by6 day..though the outward man perish

[dajomaco]

it renders 1/3 of the Bible meaningless as a guide to the future of Israel & to some extent even as a guide for those who compose the Body of Christ.
This is a logical conclusion.
I will make a bold statement. This statement is not meant to offend any body.
I do not have any poster in mind when I make this statement.
IMO
The bible is meaningless as a guide to the future
of Israel, Spain, New Zealand and the USA.
To Love one another is our final command and the bible can be used,
to prove that to fellow believers.
 
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more. "[c]

The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things,
but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

[Molly]

"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945

1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623



MUSIC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c