Prophecy

[jabcat]

wow..you agree, Jab?  It's beautiful, isn't it?

Even more beautiful if you could only agree that the Gentile church is the lost tribes of Israel, for the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile.  The children of the promise are the Gentiles, and always were.  And, so, ALL Israel will be saved.   

But, I can wait.


And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.  Rom 4:11

 

:) yeah, I agree with my thumbs-upped quotes.

Now, about the lost tribes.  RIGHT NOW, I could really entertain the thought that perhaps the 10 lost tribes were/are the Gentiles.  BUT, here's where I think RIGHT NOW we diverge..I still doubt when Jesus said He came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, that's who He was talking about, i.e., the ten lost tribes of the Gentiles.  Here's one of the main sticking points for me - the Samaritan woman.  A Gentile, who Jesus initially "ignored", then finally said (as I understand) that He did not "come for her" [at that time/moment].  Which leads me to believe much of His earthly ministry was to the Jews, pointing to their impending rejection of Him and their judgment in 70 AD.  So if you see the 10 lost tribes as Gentiles, and the lost sheep of the House of Israel as 2 different groups, maybe you won't have to wait any longer.     If not, please briefly explain His response to the Gentile woman and how that fits with your view, and enjoy that cup of coffee.  I'll have tea.   

[Molly]

I'm not sure I understand, but he has to offer salvation to the Jews first because salvation is from the Jews.  The Jews must reject him in order that salvation can be brought to the Gentiles.

Look at it this way, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Messiah [which he was], that would be the end of it.  No Gentiles.  We would still be talking about Judaism, with no Christians, and no Gentiles allowed.

That's why Paul says that their blindness led to the reconciliation of the world. [Rom 11]

Remember that parable where the Master invites all his guests to the dinner but they refuse, so he tells his servants, go out to the street and pick up every stranger you find and invite them in.

"A certain man gave a great supper and invited many; sending his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a piece of ground, I must go and see it; I ask you to have me excused.' And another said, 'I bought five yoke of oxen and I am going to test them; I ask you to have me excused too.' Another said, 'I have married a wife and therefore I cannot come.' So the servant came and reported these things to his master and the master of the house being angry, said to his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and the lanes of the city and bring here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.' And the servant said, 'Master, it is done as you have commanded and still there is room.' The master said to the servant, 'Go out in the highways and the hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say to you, that none of those men, who were invited, shall taste my supper." (Luke 14:15-24)


Until the fulfillment of the Gentiles he will still send his servants out to the streets to invite everyone they can find.  But, the Jews have to reject him first, and crucify him, for this to occur.  Remember he says to the Samaritan woman, as to all the Gentiles that throw themselves at him, 'Your faith has saved you."   This is the faith of their father Abraham.


11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. <--[tribe of Judah]

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  <---[children of the promise]

---John 1

[jabcat]

Yes, I'm pretty good with that.

Make this will make sense;

do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?

[Molly]

Yes, I'm pretty good with that.

Make this will make sense;

do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?

Obviously I think they are the same group.


21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

--Mat 15



His disciples say to him, Send that annoying [Gentile] woman away.  But, instead he says to them, I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  So, in other words,  no, he won't send her away because she might be one of the lost sheep.

The 'house of Israel' is the title of the ten northern tribes.  It is in the text this way, in the Greek,  'house of Israel'.  In the Old Testament, the New Covenant promises were made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  I don't know how else to 'prove' it to you.

But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to?  If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR].

[reFORMer]

The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 8^8-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah.  It is the description of the New Covenant.  From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.  I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.

[Molly]

The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 8^8-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah.  It is the description of the New Covenant.  From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.  I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.

Not sure what you mean by both.  Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.

The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.

But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.

[jabcat]

Yes, I'm pretty good with that.

Make this will make sense;

do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?

Obviously I think they are the same group.


21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

--Mat 15



His disciples say to him, Send that annoying [Gentile] woman away.  But, instead he says to them, I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  So, in other words,  no, he won't send her away because she might be one of the lost sheep.

The 'house of Israel' is the title of the ten northern tribes.  It is in the text this way, in the Greek,  'house of Israel'.  In the Old Testament, the New Covenant promises were made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  I don't know how else to 'prove' it to you.

But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to?  If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR].

Yeah, that's where I thought we started seeing it differently.  I'm understanding that scenario differently.  I see Him not responding to her, saying instead He was sent to someone else.  Then when she continued, He responded to her, but it was not His first response.  She also admitted she was a "dog" and only would get the crumbs (which I believe was only temporary, until the gospel did go to the Gentiles, after the cross) while in that current time period, the Jews got the "good stuff", i.e., His offer and attention (which they would refuse- BY DESIGN).

As far as this "But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to?  If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR]."   I look at it this way;  He had to come and bring the "official offer" to the Jews first, that's why He was sent to them...it had to be that way, so they'd "officially" and "finally" deny Him (until they're finally brought in at the end of the age or beginning of the next), then the gospel was "free" to go to the Gentiles.  So that wouldn't make Him a failure, that would make it "mission accomplished", that part of the plan fulfilled - so the next steps could occur (crucifixion, gospel to Gentiles).  So I present it as that POV, with the caveat that I'm certainly willing to look at other possibilities.  But if what I just presented isn't accurate, then what do we do with Jesus' earthly ministry?  It appears to me it was obviously mostly directed at the Jews, actively engaging them in rejecting Him, leading to His crucifixion and the fulfillment of that age at 70 AD.  So with still much of His teachings about the culmination of that age, what they were facing (rich man and Lazarus which was about Israel), etc.   

I guess I could see this as a possibility;  if Him saying He came for the Gentiles who would believe in Him (lost tribes/lost sheep), then what He meant by that was primarily about the upcoming cross and the gospel then going to them who would believe on Him as Savior, and by saying that wasn't addressing much at all the majority of His earthly ministry pre-cross, which again, seems very primarily directed at the Jews in that age and their impending judgment.  So I'm not sure if all that can fit together that way.   Maybe so :)

[jabcat]

But doesn't this present a little need for further thought about it?   

"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6).

[Molly]

Ok Let's look at it from the point of view of his sheep.  What identifies them?  They know his voice and they follow him because they know he is their Shepherd.



Doesn't this describe the 2 billion Gentile Christian church?

So is he saying these are the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

He is not a 'stranger' to them:

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."  John 10:5


They are the called out ones:

John 10:3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.


They are his followers:

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.


They know him and they know who he is:

John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--


If the Gentile church is not the lost sheep of the house of Israel,

what sheep are they?

[jabcat]

perhaps the "sheep of another fold"?   I really don't know for sure.  There may be even other options.   

But notice the distinction He makes in the Matthew 10:5,6 passage, between the Gentiles and the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  That looks to me like 2 different groups?

[jabcat]

And really, my own personal main issue with this is, what the focus of His earthly ministry was, leading up to and prior to the cross;  as I think that's important for context of scriptures that I believe often gets mixed together in many teachings.   

[Molly]

But doesn't this present a little need for further thought about it?   

"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6).

He is sending them to Jewish cities first because he must offer salvation to the Jews first.  But, then he says this to the Jews:



24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
 
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

--John 10


So the definition of a sheep is one who believes.  One who knows his voice.  One who follows him.   And, who believes in him?  The Christian Gentile church.

Jesus is born a Jew.  He is the Jewish Messiah.  The Jews reject him.  Therefore, they are not his sheep.

But, look who believes him:  millions of people who have historically been at odds with the Jews, people that the Jews would have nothing to do with because they are 'unclean,' --How does that happen?  Is it just out of the blue?  Wouldn't scripture prophesy about this incredible event?

It does!


10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1


Today in the world, there are 2 billion Christians and 15 million Jews.

Which ones qualify for that verse describing the children of Israel?


11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.  Hosea 1

[reFORMer]

The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 8^8-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah.  It is the description of the New Covenant.  From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.  I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.

Not sure what you mean by both.  Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.

The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.

But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.

While I didn't intend to go there, I presume the reason you say, "Not sure what you mean by both" is it doesn't maintain the rebuilding of the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down by Jesus' death.  Keeping the distinction as a principle defining "spiritual" substance is an idea pounded into a dipsinsationalist's head.  John Hagee goes so far as to teach Jews do not need to come to faith in Jesus because they are saved by another covenant than the New Covenant in Christ.

However, there is only the new man now.  Even before Jesus, people not carnally born to it could join themselves (as the Law provided) to the commonwealth of Israel.  A religious, cultural, or carnal and racial distinction of Jew and Gentile are identities that count for nothing before God, only faith in Christ matters.  The only kinds of human are Adam or Christ.

27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise. (Galatians 3^27-29, Concordant Literal)

[Molly]

The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 8^8-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah.  It is the description of the New Covenant.  From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.  I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.

Not sure what you mean by both.  Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.

The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.

But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.

While I didn't intend to go there, I presume the reason you say, "Not sure what you mean by both" is it doesn't maintain the rebuilding of the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down by Jesus' death.  Keeping the distinction as a principle defining "spiritual" substance is an idea pounded into a dipsinsationalist's head.  John Hagee goes so far as to teach Jews do not need to come to faith in Jesus because they are saved by another covenant than the New Covenant in Christ.

However, there is only the new man now.  Even before Jesus, people not carnally born to it could join themselves (as the Law provided) to the commonwealth of Israel.  A religious, cultural, or carnal and racial distinction of Jew and Gentile are identities that count for nothing before God, only faith in Christ matters.  The only kinds of human are Adam or Christ.

27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise. (Galatians 3^27-29, Concordant Literal)

Abraham himself was both.  But he's kind of a unique figure.  That's why he's called Abraham, 'father of a multitude.'

There is the new man.  There are also still Jews and Gentiles.  There is a lot of prophecy about the Jews, i.e. tribe of Judah, in both the OT and the NT.    I don't see anything wrong with discussing it, as Paul does extensively in Romans and elsewhere.  Certainly no one here is saying they will be saved apart from Jesus.


For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, 'The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

--Acts 4


But neither do I think that God will go back on his promises to the house of Judah, just as I do not think he went back on his promises to the house of Israel, [for those who are thinking the house of Israel just disappeared forever off the face of the earth.]  This is not about who we are.  It is about who God is.

He will not say he is going to do something and then not do it.


For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

[Paul L]

In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.

The Greek word for "lost" as used in the old King James English is much different than the Greek word which means "punishment". When Christ is referring to the so-called "lost ten tribes" his literal meaning is the "punished ten tribes", it is not a reference of their identity being obscured but rather their relationship to God being as a people in a state of punishment for their past deeds of idolatry which was the reason God had the Assyrians take them captive back to Assyria to the region of Babylon where they were joined a few decades later by the southern tribes. Judah & Israel joined each other in captivity in the region of Babylon, remixed with one another & all 12 tribes from that time forward are commonly identified as Jews.

All those who are identified as Jews today are not all of the southern tribe of Judah, many Jews use the names of all the northern 10 tribes, eg; Reuben, Ephraim, etc. This came about as the southern & northern tribes mixed with one another after Nebuchadnezzar took the southern tribes captive & held them in the same region of Babylon that 100 years before was Assyria.

Today it is not all that difficult to identify where the progeny of the northern tribes are today, go to any synagogue outside of Israel & you can meet them, they call themselves Jews but most are really of the so-called lost ten tribes who in actuality are not lost but under banishment (Gr: punishment) from the land of promise. But with the gathering of the 144,000  of all the 12 tribes (except for Dan) during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy this will end, and eventually all the 12 will be settled into the land from which they were banished.

Presently only those of the southern tribe of Judah have returned to the land of promise, the remaining 10 tribes remain scattered (banished) & living throughout the Western world of Christendom & while technically calling themselves Jews (they practice the religion of Judaism) many are aware they are actually progeny of the northern 10 tribes. God knows those who are his, he alone can separate who among world Jewry are of which tribe & he has stated in Revelation that he will do exactly that, he just hides from us exactly how he will do it.

Too many in the world of Christendom have attempted to abscond with promises & prophecies that are intended only for Israel, & I feel this line of thought, that Gentiles of the present day Christian Church are now the so-called "lost" ten tribes, falls into the same category. It doesn't fit into the prophecy of Revelation to make such a stretch of the imagination.

 

[Doug]

...

Abraham himself was both.  But he's kind of a unique figure.  That's why he's called Abraham, 'father of a multitude.'

There is the new man.  There are also still Jews and Gentiles.  There is a lot of prophecy about the Jews, i.e. tribe of Judah, in both the OT and the NT.    I don't see anything wrong with discussing it, as Paul does extensively in Romans and elsewhere.  Certainly no one here is saying they will be saved apart from Jesus.


For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, 'The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

--Acts 4


But neither do I think that God will go back on his promises to the house of Judah, just as I do not think he went back on his promises to the house of Israel, [for those who are thinking the house of Israel just disappeared forever off the face of the earth.]  This is not about who we are.  It is about who God is.

He will not say he is going to do something and then not do it.


For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Many of the Jews living in 70 A.D. probably thought along similar lines. "God cannot ignore his promises to the house of Judah." "God promised in Jeremiah that 'In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely.'"

When the Roman armies were camped on the hills around the city, it must have looked like this might be Zechariah's prophecy coming true:

Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

What Jew in Jerusalem could have read this prophecy, and not expected that the Lord would soon go forth and fight against their enemies, and give them a great victory? And cleave the mount of Olives? Even Zechariah said "Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited." But, that is not what happened. They misread the prophecies, and they ignored the warnings of the apostles, who said Jerusalem was now heavenly.

Isaiah had said that Jerusalem and mount Zion would be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and that was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, where he was "made Christ," receiving an eternal throne in Jerusalem, over all of the house of Israel, as David had also reigned over all Israel at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

After Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, Jerusalem was in heaven, and was called "Jerusalem which is above," and "the mother of us all." [Gal. 4:26] The earthly city, "Jerusalem which now is," was cast aside, and identified with Hagar. All believers have come "unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22]

Paul viewed the history of Old Testament Israel as a type and a figure, intended for "our examples." He wrote, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.... Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." [1 Corinthians 10:6, 11]

Peter said the prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you." [1 Peter 1:10] They wrote of the gospel, and the future blessings and grace to come upon those who believe in Christ. Often, the nations of Israel, Judah, and the city of Jerusalem, and other nations, were figures and metaphors, and these need to be interpreted, as the apostles often did, in the NT. For example, see Acts 15:16.

Peter said, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Peter 1:12]

Circumcision of the flesh now counted for nothing.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The true circumcision was that "without hands," and of the heart. Paul said,

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The promises to Israel now applied to the Israel that was by faith in Christ, not ethnic Jews. This Israel included Gentile believers, who were grafted in, and Jews who did not believe in Christ were branches broken off from their tree. Any who rejected Christ was cut off, and was no longer in Israel, as the law had said.

Acts 3:18-23
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

The gospel makes all the racial theories void.

Doug

Creation Concept

[Molly]

Notes on the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Great Tribulation.

This is the time leading up to the day of the Lord, or the second coming of Jesus.

Jesus will return to cut that time short and deliver his holy people.


The time of Jacob's trouble is described as unprecedented in human history.


Jer 30

THAT DAY IS GREAT, NONE IS LIKE IT



Dan 12

A TIME OF TROUBLE SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION

THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES



Mat 24

Jesus himself says,

FOR THEN THERE SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.



These statements alone are sufficient to prove that the prophecy about Jacob's trouble was not fulfilled in 70 ad or even to this day.

[Molly]

more notes
The time of Jacob's trouble is end time, not 70 ad.


the shattering of the Jewish people at the time of the end.

Dan 11 and 12   11:21--12:13


Dan 12:7  How long?  When the power of the holy people has been shattered then these things will be done.

Mat 24

an age ending assault which begins with the abomination that causes desolation

This age ends with a gentile expression of rage against the holy covenant

The disciples ask Jesus in Matthew 24, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Jesus quotes verbatim selections from Dan 11 and 12

birth pangs, social pressure, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet daniel standing in the holy place --you need to understand the passage I'm quoting.  It is a command to go read it--

Let those who are in Judea flee--run--don't take anything--urgency--run for your lives--

This is talking about an invasion of Jerusalem.  This is the event that kicks off the end time storm.  When you see the siege beginning get out of Judea.  It will last 42 months.  The inhabitants of Judea are biblically commanded to leave.  Mat 24:15 is a biblical command.  Zech and Isa tell us the city will be blockaded.  That's why the sense of urgency.  GET OUT NOW.

Isa 28--those of a foreign stammering tongue will be quoting the Hebrew scripture to the people of Israel.  and the people will scoff at them.

This is decreed desolation for the city of Jerusalem.

Jesus quotes Dan 12 ---then there will be great time of trouble as there has never been and never will be again.  If those days had not been cut short no human flesh would remain.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, which last 42 months, sun and moon will be darkened, then Jesus will return and resurrection of the dead,  the elect will be caught up in the air.

This takes us to the very time of the second coming and the gathering of the elect.

The desolation of Jerusalem is the pre-eminent sign of the end of the age and the return of Jesus.

Dan 12:7--this is the shattering of the holy people.

The closer we get to the end, the more revelation we will receive--book of Daniel tells us it is sealed unto the time of the end.

Daniel 11

verse 21-22  Rise of the Antichrist.  The desolator.   A vile person.  He will come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.  He immediately commands an army.

verse 23-31  The time between his rise and his abomination.  He leads three military campaigns against Egypt.  The third time he will enter Jerusalem and the tribulation will begin.  His military forces will set up the abomination of desolation.  Jesus quotes verse 31 in Mat 24.:15

Verse 32--onwards   Describes the tribulation

Dan:12 " 1  At that time---when the abomination that causes desolation is set up--Michael will stand up and the trouble begins--Mat 24: 22-24

Dan 12:7  this will last for 3 1/2 years and the shattering of the holy people will come to an end

12:11  1290 days after A of D is set up the tribulation will cease


 
 
Dan 12

Daniel is told that this trouble culminates in the salvation of Israel.  "your people shall be delivered.'  It ends in salvation of the Jews.  The dark night of tribulation will end in salvation and the resurrection of the dead. 

Jesus teaches this right out of Dan 11 and 12.  He says these things are fulfilled right before the second coming.  It's about the time of the end of the age.

This time of trouble is started by a single cruel man, who sets up the abomination that causes desolation in the holy place.  You will watch his emergence and his campaign against Egypt and recognize him.  The first time he succeeds against Egypt.  The second time naval forces oppose him and make him afraid.  And then he gets mad at Israel, and with rage against the holy covenant invades Jerusalem.    He will come to his end with none to help him. 

In second thess 2 Paul quotes Daniel--Jesus will come and destroy the Antichrist.


We who are living in the end times are finishing the great commission started by the Apostles and like them, living under the same shadow as they did, of the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem.  70ad was a foreshadowing  of what is to come.  We are finishing the great commission.


Jerusalem will be the eye of the storm.  At the heart of this is 'rage against the holy covenant.'   It is mentioned four times by Daniel.  It has to do with the Gentile conflict over the everlasting promise of the land to Israel.  The Antichrist's heart is set against the holy covenant.  The Gentiles are offended at the covenant that God made with the Israelites about the land.  The Antichrist will seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant.  But the people who know their God will stand firm against him.

He hates the very concept of the promised land and the election of the Jewish people.

It is an everlasting covenant.  God will not break his promise.  God's nature is at stake here.   God gives the land to the Israelites because of the grace shown to Abraham.  This is all about covenant and grace.  It's about a God of grace who makes an everlasting covenant and will not back out on it.  It's not about Israel.  It's about God's grace and that grace will stand by covenant.  It's about a God who made a covenant that he will not break.

This enrages the Antichrist.   Israel is an object lesson to expose the hatred in the human heart about grace.  "They don't deserve it."  Precisely, --that is what grace is---unmerited favor.

[reFORMer]

In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.

The Greek word for "lost" as used in the old King James English is much different than the Greek word which means "punishment". When Christ is referring to the so-called "lost ten tribes" his literal meaning is the "punished ten tribes", it is not a reference of their identity being obscured but rather their relationship to God being as a people in a state of punishment for their past deeds of idolatry which was the reason God had the Assyrians take them captive back to Assyria to the region of Babylon where they were joined a few decades later by the southern tribes. Judah & Israel joined each other in captivity in the region of Babylon, remixed with one another & all 12 tribes from that time forward are commonly identified as Jews.

I cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say.  I trust we all will have much better mental function in the not so distant future.  You could utter a little prayer that I would be surmounting any challenges of this sort.

All those who are identified as Jews today are not all of the southern tribe of Judah, many Jews use the names of all the northern 10 tribes, eg; Reuben, Ephraim, etc. This came about as the southern & northern tribes mixed with one another after Nebuchadnezzar took the southern tribes captive & held them in the same region of Babylon that 100 years before was Assyria.

Today it is not all that difficult to identify where the progeny of the northern tribes are today, go to any synagogue outside of Israel & you can meet them, they call themselves Jews but most are really of the so-called lost ten tribes who in actuality are not lost but under banishment (Gr: punishment) from the land of promise. But with the gathering of the 144,000  of all the 12 tribes (except for Dan) during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy this will end, and eventually all the 12 will be settled into the land from which they were banished.

The other mention of a 144,00 in Revelation has no tribal connection.  Many think it may be a Gentile other half.  In (I think it was) 4th Esdras is the idea these are a corporate "two witnesses."  Britton suggested it's those on the other side of death's veil coming into a manifest victory simultaneously, "The dead shall rise first," with the tribal 144,000.  I tend to think the "Jewish" 144,000 rose from the dead as complete Overcomers when Jesus raised from the dead.  They are following Him where ever He goes.  The other 144,000 are the Overcomers of our generation (40 years) who must manifest as we transition into the Millennium or, "Age of Tabernacles," as it may be called.  These may be even now beginning to enter into incorruptible immortality.

Presently only those of the southern tribe of Judah have returned to the land of promise, the remaining 10 tribes remain scattered (banished) & living throughout the Western world of Christendom & while technically calling themselves Jews (they practice the religion of Judaism) many are aware they are actually progeny of the northern 10 tribes. God knows those who are his, he alone can separate who among world Jewry are of which tribe & he has stated in Revelation that he will do exactly that, he just hides from us exactly how he will do it.

What you're saying here has a practical similarity to what seemed the best explanation I've found concerning the other 10 tribes.  I've tried to re-locate it several times, but Keil and Delitzsch in probably Jeremiah, possibly Ezekiel (and failing all else, remotely Isaiah,) in a number of pages discuss the primarily Biblical evidence as well as history that makes it plain these 10 tribes were subsumed into there rest of those returning from the Babylonian captivity.  Nowhere else have I encountered so very much scripture that goes unnoticed by most that vent on the topic

Too many in the world of Christendom have attempted to abscond with promises & prophecies that are intended only for Israel, & I feel this line of thought, that Gentiles of the present day Christian Church are now the so-called "lost" ten tribes, falls into the same category. It doesn't fit into the prophecy of Revelation to make such a stretch of the imagination.

It appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled.  I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.

[Molly]

I cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say

But, he does refer to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal .  House of Israel is the title the Bible gives to the northern ten tribes.  I may be wrong, but I"m not aware of the 12 tribes of Israel ever being called the house of Israel.  I've always seen house of Israel in juxtaposition to house of Judah, referring to the splitting of the kingdom.

in probably Jeremiah, possibly Ezekiel (and failing all else, remotely Isaiah,) in a number of pages discuss the primarily Biblical evidence as well as history that makes it plain these 10 tribes were subsumed into there rest of those returning from the Babylonian captivity. Nowhere else have I encountered so very much scripture that goes unnoticed by most that vent on the topic

I'm sure that some of the tribes mixed and mingled with those who returned.  Whether all did is open to speculation.  But, don't forget, the northern kingdom was huge.  It was five times bigger in population than the southern kingdom, and most of those were lost to history.  Also, if you look at the Jews and count them, they don't seem to meet the level of sand of the sea.  In fact, it's kind of shocking how small their group is in number, 15 million worldwide.

It appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled. I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.

It's not about race or racial identity at all. No one could possibly know the identity today of tribes lost 3000 years ago.   It's about a story that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and about promises made to a people that were fulfilled, not by another people, but by that same people.  But it's not worth upsetting people over it.  If such a thing were true, God would know, so we don't have to worry ourselves about it anyway.

[Paul L]

In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.

I cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say.  I trust we all will have much better mental function in the not so distant future.  You could utter a little prayer that I would be surmounting any challenges of this sort.

Matt 10:6 & Matt 15:24

The other mention of a 144,00 in Revelation has no tribal connection. 

It appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled.  I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.
[/quote]

How about Rev 7:4-14 These all came "out of the great tribulation", the 144000 of the 12 sons of Israel with each of the 12 tribes listed except for Dan but with Joseph's two sons listed to bring the total to 12. This is most certainly an unmistakable "tribal connection" .

[Paul L]

Molly, reFormer,

What I see going on here is the continuing debate between Dispensationalism & Preterism. Dispensationalists believe there is room for the endtime nationalism of endtime Israel as described in Revelation, but Preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled in historical accounts of the Christian church. 

Preterism had its' rise in Catholic theology whereas Dispensationalism began its' rise in the 1800's as many Protestants began to see the obvious problems of the substitution of the Christian church in absconding with the promises clearly given only to Israel (all 12 tribes, not just Jews).

Much of the present day interpretation of Revelation is a mix of Preterism & Dispensationalism, but among non-Catholic groups is strongly trending away from Preterism (the Catholic interpretation) to literal fulfillment as espoused in Dispensationalism. But even among many Dispensationalists there are disagreements with regard how far to go in "literally": interpreting the entirety of the book of Revelation & this basically descibes the discussion several of us are having here with our postings.

My view of Revelation is that there is no message here to the Christian Church, the Body of Christ has been removed from the scene & on the first Day of the Lord the messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered and the time of "Jacob's trouble" moves into high gear. Holdover Preterists do not see things this way & many Dispensationalists are not willing to go all the way with this either, they want to hold onto their " 7  Christian churches" which distorts the point made by Christ himself in Rev 1:10-11 that the messages to these 7 ecclesias are all made on the same day of the opening of the Day of the Lord, "Jacob's trouble" if you will & are delivered to seven Jewish synagogues in a country we today call Turkey. The 7 ecclesias are not a history of the Christian church, but there remains most Dispensationalists who do not see it this way, well, so be it, but time will change their minds as we get closer to the Day of the Lord, we're just not yet close enough for them to see it any differently.

[Molly]

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.


30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.


--Psalm 22


"to a people yet unborn"  I love that.  And, it even implies he knows who they are.

[dajomaco]

"to a people yet unborn"  I love that.  And, it even implies he knows who they are.

There are 350,000. New babies born each day.

350,000 new souls.
Kind of makes the Fields are ripe an understatement

[Doug]

Molly, reFormer,

What I see going on here is the continuing debate between Dispensationalism & Preterism. Dispensationalists believe there is room for the endtime nationalism of endtime Israel as described in Revelation, but Preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled in historical accounts of the Christian church. 

Preterism had its' rise in Catholic theology whereas Dispensationalism began its' rise in the 1800's as many Protestants began to see the obvious problems of the substitution of the Christian church in absconding with the promises clearly given only to Israel (all 12 tribes, not just Jews).

Much of the present day interpretation of Revelation is a mix of Preterism & Dispensationalism, but among non-Catholic groups is strongly trending away from Preterism (the Catholic interpretation) to literal fulfillment as espoused in Dispensationalism. But even among many Dispensationalists there are disagreements with regard how far to go in "literally": interpreting the entirety of the book of Revelation & this basically descibes the discussion several of us are having here with our postings.

It is probably even more complex than you have depicted here. Preterism and dispensationalism are like two sides of the same coin; they each insist that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are 490 years. For dispensationalists, the 70 weeks prophecy, and their interpretation of it, is viewed as the key to understanding all prophecy.

OTOH, for preterists, the key verse is probably Matthew 24:34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." They take this to mean all prophecy would be fulfilled in that generation. But they exclude Jesus. He is alive, and he remains part of that generation, so it has not yet passed away!

One can view both preterism and dispensationalism as two different ways of explaining how the 490 years of the 70 weeks work out, in the overall prophetic plan. Basically, their interpretations of the first 69 weeks are quite similar. It is the 70th week that causes contention. But both groups insist the 70th week is seven literal years. Preterists say it was fulfilled in the first century. Some deny any gap between the 69th and 70th week; others allow a gap, and put the last half-week in the period before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Dispensationalists say the 70th week is yet future. The dispensationalist/preterist premises thus have much in common. They vie with each other over which is the more "literal."

Each group publishes lots of books. There are well informed scholars on each side of the debate. Within each group, there are factions that do battle with one another. Preterists are divided between the full or hyper preterists on the one hand, and the partial preterists on the other. Dispensationalists are more diverse. They are split between the classical, revised, progressive, utradispensationalism, mid-Acts dispensationalism, and several other camps. The Watchtower or JW organization seems to be a form of dispensationalism. There is often more intense debate between members of the internal divisions, than between people on opposite sides. An example is the discourse by H. Ironside against Bullingerism, or ultradispensationalism, which he condemned.

My view of Revelation is that there is no message here to the Christian Church, the Body of Christ has been removed from the scene & on the first Day of the Lord the messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered and the time of "Jacob's trouble" moves into high gear. Holdover Preterists do not see things this way & many Dispensationalists are not willing to go all the way with this either, they want to hold onto their " 7  Christian churches" which distorts the point made by Christ himself in Rev 1:10-11 that the messages to these 7 ecclesias are all made on the same day of the opening of the Day of the Lord, "Jacob's trouble" if you will & are delivered to seven Jewish synagogues in a country we today call Turkey. The 7 ecclesias are not a history of the Christian church, but there remains most Dispensationalists who do not see it this way, well, so be it, but time will change their minds as we get closer to the Day of the Lord, we're just not yet close enough for them to see it any differently.

A way of reconciling Christians of each group would be if both were to come to the realization that Christ reigns throughout the present age, and continues to confirm his covenant with his saints, as stated in Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The week includes his earthly ministry, and all the time since. The present age is the "time, times and a half" of prophecy. But they would then have to abandon the idea that the 70th week consists of a literal 7 years. But there is abundant evidence it is not. For example, the 1,260 days, and 42 months, are not equal to three and a half years. The 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 do not equal three and a half years. Neither are any of these numbers equal to each other. In the Jewish calendar, the number of days in three and a half years could vary, but none of these numbers fit. Therefore, concluding the numbers represent not a literal, but a symbolic period of time, is well founded. The dispensationalist/preterist mantra that the years are literal is mere chatter, noise without substance, clouds blown by wind, etc. 

The times that apply to Christ and his heavenly city are not earth days, earth months, or earth years, as those are physical, earthly units, and for God, the times in which he accomplishes things are not determined by the motions of physical things like the earth and the moon. Peter expressed the principle as, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Pet. 3:8] For God, time is something other than what it is for us. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [Isa. 55:8-9] We can see this principle holds for the events of creation too.

So the last half-week in Daniel's 70 weeks is not a literal three years and a half. The premises of the dispensationalists and preterists are flawed, IMO. The last half of the 70th week is figurative, since it applies to the heavenly city, which Christ is building, the church. All the previous sixty nine and a half weeks, however, apply to the earthly city, and they are fulfilled by weeks of natural years and weeks of leap years. They predict the time of Christ's ministry quite accurately, if counted from the decree of Cyrus, 7 weeks of leap years = 133 years, and then 62 weeks of regular sabbatical cycles, 434 years, all of which works out to the beginning of the ministry of Jesus in 28 AD.

Doug

Creation Concept