Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 230137 times)

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Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2012, 01:15:55 AM »

And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?

A jew is not one who is a jew outwardly is he?  And circumcision is not of the flesh is it?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2012, 02:09:36 AM »
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a Jewish
Psalms 83 references Edom. 

Edom was completely absorbed into "Israel", even though "Israel" is not Israel.  It mentions the son of the bondwoman too.  Who is that?  Jerusalem below. 

So we have a country called Edom thats not actually Edom, attacking literal Edom aka "israel", which by the way was never the name of a country, the kingdom of Israel was where the king resided, and that included in the wilderness.  But that was all a shadow of the reality which is now which is Christ in YOU. 

Then we have a people Ishmael, which never had a region or country IIRC they were nomads.  These people have been explicitly identified as a type of the natural man warring with the spiritual man.  And that man is the son of the bondwoman, literal Jerusalem.  Meaning that Edomites calling themselves Jews,( yet is a jew one outwardly?) are spiritually called Ishmaelites.  These are going to be attacked by literal Ishmaelites or arabs?

 :Chinscratch:


 :2c:

The son of the bondwoman is Ishmael, also characterized by Paul in Galatians as a type of the law, seed sown into flesh(Hagar, earthly Jerusalem), then cast out to make room for the son of the free woman, Isaac from Sarah, seed sown in spirit according to promise - characterizing our mother, Jerusalem from above who is free. "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples", upon Zion, the joy of the whole earth, the city of the Great King.

To me Tyre, Babylon, Sodom, earthly Jerusalem all fold in into "MYSTERY BABYLON, Sodom and Egypt, the mother of Harlots, WHEREIN OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED"- all just tines on the crown of her, the "city in whom righteousness once dwelt-but has now become a harlot"(Isaiah 1:21)

To me it all ties into earthly Jerusalem(masquerade) vs heavenly Jerusalem(reality)

There are churches in earthly Jerusalem(Mystery Babylon), and there are churches in heavenly Jerusalem (MYSTERY JERUSALEM).

Heavenly Jerusalem is "coming down out of heaven adorned as a Bride(revealed unto men)"
Thy kingdom come, your will be done, one earth AS IT IS in heaven
"The King's daughter is all glorious within"

As Jesus saying I am the bread of life "coming down out of heaven(revealed unto men)"

The churches in heavenly Jerusalem have Lampstands, "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, wherein are all spiritual blessings"

The churches in earthly Jerusalem are gates to Sheol, open graves in the night and swallow men alive into there depths(of confusion/chaos/futility/carnality/obscuring the truth), they are passing away per 1 Corinthians 3:13-17- wood hay and stubble being CONSUMED BY THE DAY

The churches that are set upon Lampstand all have letters standing open for them, from the one who "walks among the Lampstands and holds the seven stars in His hands", If the spirit if the presbytery is listening, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirits saying to the churches".

I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan"  :2c:

IMO, Little houses of love and soup kitchens are much more likely to bear His signet, than all the advertisers, batting their eyes at the world, posing as virgins while eating the unwary through the blinders of their systematic theologies, based on elementary principles and the rudiments of the world.

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col 2:8-10)

They are "losing hold upon the head".

Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.  (Col 2:18-19)

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Offline rosered

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2012, 02:17:51 AM »

And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?

A jew is not one who is a jew outwardly is he?  And circumcision is not of the flesh is it?

 Exactly   :) 
 we know  by scriptures  that    the Jews that were of the circumcision
Law of moses     , but lacked the love  for the bretheren , which is the royal law


  Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
 
 love is the greatest thing and is NEVER offended , knowing that those who offend and are still offended  are still lacking the love of Christ in them to the full  yet !  more work though suffering    for the good  because of evil  is needed  though faith and experiences  , sifting  process

1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


 Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.


Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
 

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.


Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
 
 treat others like you desire to be treated by doing good to them  and judging what is right in the sight of God



Jer 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.


Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? 54 Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, "When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, 'Here comes a shower.' And you are right. 55 When the south wind blows, you say, 'Today will be a scorcher.' And it is. 56 You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky, but you don't know how to interpret the present times.

57 "Why can't you decide for yourselves what is right? 58 When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison. 59 And if that happens, you won't be free again until you have paid the very last penny.



Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

 we are to praise God and  be of a thankful heart always declaring the name of the Lord and His works
 
 

Online lomarah

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2012, 02:38:08 AM »
Good word Rose! I look forward to that day when His love is complete in me and there is no more offense in me. :) He is faithful, PTL!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2012, 03:00:59 AM »
Molly,

I know where literal Idumea was.  But back then there were not really boundary markers for countries like we have today.  The people of that tribe were Edomites.  They were the sons of Esau.  The hairy one, kind of like a beast.  Edom just happens to be the exact same word as Adam.  Spiritually they are the old man, just as Ishmael, and moab, and Egypt, and babylon, and Jerusalem.

But literally they are not a distinct people anymore.  The so-called jews in Israel now are edomites.  Edom was swallowed up by Israel back around the Mccabbees IIRC.  Those people are assyrians, samaritans, edomites, and a small mix of actual Jewish blood, but that brings me back to the original point that those who consider themselves Israel according to the flesh are not, because Israel is not flesh.  Jerusalem is not stone and grass and dirt.

p.s. I typed this out before I read Eaglesways post (moab,egypt,babylon)

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2012, 03:19:47 AM »
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a Jewish

I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan" 

Where can you find an example in this world, or Bible, of a Christian Church referred to as a "synagogue"?

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2012, 03:26:06 AM »
Molly,

I know where literal Idumea was.  But back then there were not really boundary markers for countries like we have today.  The people of that tribe were Edomites.  They were the sons of Esau.  The hairy one, kind of like a beast.  Edom just happens to be the exact same word as Adam.  Spiritually they are the old man, just as Ishmael, and moab, and Egypt, and babylon, and Jerusalem.

But literally they are not a distinct people anymore.  The so-called jews in Israel now are edomites.  Edom was swallowed up by Israel back around the Mccabbees IIRC.  Those people are assyrians, samaritans, edomites, and a small mix of actual Jewish blood, but that brings me back to the original point that those who consider themselves Israel according to the flesh are not, because Israel is not flesh.  Jerusalem is not stone and grass and dirt.

p.s. I typed this out before I read Eaglesways post (moab,egypt,babylon)

Of course I understand your wish to spiritually interpret these things--although I don't think it's completely possible with prophecy because prophecy will play out literally in the end times just as it did in the time of Jesus.

But the prophet is writing thousands of years ago about a place called Jordan today, and the only way he has to describe it is by calling it Edom because that is what it is in the time he is writing about it.   So he is shown it's location and shown events playing out and he describes it for us. 

When OT prophecy told us that a son will be born to us and he will be the prince of peace was that just spiritual?  No.  A real flesh and blood man fulfilled that prophecy, although we all know it has also a spiritual component.

So if the prophet is talking about a coalition of countries, and one he names is Edom, and we ask where is that?  The answer would be modern day Jordan which overlays the boundaries of ancient Edom.

I've read all kinds of things about Edomites themselves but I don't think it's necessary to go any further than this--Jordan will be one of the countries in confederacy against Israel during the Psalm 83 war.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2012, 03:38:14 AM »
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a Jewish

I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan" 

Where can you find an example in this world, or Bible, of a Christian Church referred to as a "synagogue"?

To Smyrna

9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor's crown. Rev 2


To Philadephia


 I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.  Rev 3



Paul I am getting the impression reading these passages that the synagogue of Satan is a separate entity from the churches which is persecuting the churches.



goodreport

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #108 on: August 21, 2012, 04:08:03 AM »
Over 100 replies---> diverse "opinions".  I found all very interesting, very informative, some complex, some heartfelt (Rosered, thank you!)

I'm thinking that much of the diversity is based on whether one believes in physical or in spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies. I think there's enough evidence in the Scriptures to confirm both... in their own order.  Please note, I didn't use the word "literal", I don't see it as a "literal vs spiritual" issue.

Another problem that I see is that within each camp (physical fulfillment or spiritual fulfillment) there can be misinterpretations of the Scriptures... 

I take the Word of God literally... I don't always understand it fully-- but I believe...

Some of the lyrics from I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED are very meaningful to me: 

I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart,
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart

I know not how the Spirit moves,
Convincing us of sin,
Revealing Jesus through the Word,
Creating faith in Him.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 10:19:39 PM by goodreport »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2012, 05:47:05 AM »
I think as well the scriptures have layers. In the end there is "the god of this age" and our God.

There is the "spirit that now moves in the sons of disobedience"
And there is the Spirit of God.

These underlie, as foundations, many other statements about gods, spirits, etc.

In Revelation, we see Babylon as the Mother of Harlots. And "in her is found ALL the blood of ALL the prophets and the saints martyred throughout the ages"- therefore, she includes the entire matrix/kosmos of false revelation and murder beginning with the religion of Cain.

Father of lies
Author of Confusion
God Of This World, "blinding the eyes of them who disbelieve".

I definitely think the "synagogue of Satan" reference in Rev 2 was, historically, the Jews who were persecuting the ecclesia of Christ. We know Paul was of that synagogue for awhile.

I don't think that in any way LIMITS what that says about THAT SPIRIT be it in a church, which is a synagogue as well- an assembly. You have "a name that lives but you are dead" also sounds like a parrallel statement to me.

"You tolerate that woman who calls herself a prophetess Jezebel to teach my people to eat meats sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication".

So, since the "synagogue of Satan" ("A synagogue of Satan"not "THE synagogue of Satan being referred to here was (imo) historically a sect of Jew- It definitely is a part of Mystery  Babylon, which includes EVERY PERSECUTOR THAT HAS SHED INNOCENT BLOOD. As Jesus said to them "You are of your father(one father) the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning. You are guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Abel to Zecharia, who you slew between the porch and the altar(in the holy place)".

Then Jude says likewise- OF TEACHERS RISEN AMONG CHRISTIANS- "they have sinned the sin of Cain(hated and murdered the innocent), erred after Balaam's error(seducing the assembly into immorality for profit), and rebelled in the rebellion of Korah(despised the calling, choosing of God)"- all things we have seen in the Catholic Church, things committed by also Calvin, Knox and Luther IN THAT SAME SPIRIT. Persecutions murders over doctrine veiling ambitions and restraining the gospel by unrighteousness in the name of righteousness. Martyring children of Jesus IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

He compares them to principalities that LEFT THEIR PROPER ABODE. Became Arrogant And Forsook SERVICE in order to ACHIEVE DOMINION.

Truly, synagogues of Satan.

I think God is impartial and no respecter of persons and applies these same discerning principles at the foundational level to every assembly that departs from the way of Christ, persecutes the truth and puts blinders on men, serving the "god of this age" in order to serve themselves.


« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:57:54 AM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2012, 08:07:43 AM »
I'm beginning to understand something about most of the above commentary concerning the 7 so-called "churches" in Revelation. Most of the perspectives seem to center around their being Christian. Am I not correct?

The word "church" in the most commonly read versions is not derived from any word in the Greek language in which Revelation was written. The King James popularized this erroneous word "church" from the Latin Vulgate which uses the Latin language root word circ from which the English language derives its' words for circle & church, & circus. The Latin word circ does not even have the same definition as the the original Greek word ekklesia which is  often anglicized to ecclesia. In Greek it means assembly or congregation, it is for this reason I always use the Greek derivative & not the Latin because the Latin does not accurately define the Greek word ekklesia (ecclesia).

With the above stated we can move on to the opening statements made by Christ himself in verse Rev1:1  "...to shew to his servants things which must shortly come to pass..." KJ, and most other versions read similarly. So, Christ himself is clearly stating everything he instructs John to write down is yet future, everything, no exceptions.  But future to what point in time? Future to the time of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, which must include the 7 ecclesias  because it is to them the message of the book is written. "John to the seven ecclesias which are in Asia..." vs 4, then following in vs10 John was propelled forward in time and "was in the spirit on the Lord's day", and in vs 11 was instructed to whom to write the messages "..write in a book & send it unto the seven ecclesias". No one else gets this message, only the 7 ecclesias.

When you read the word "church" in English, just automatically think the Greek word "ecclesia" to get the proper perspective of  this word. The word "church" automatically insinuates a Christian perspective, but "ecclesia" suggests only a neutral perspective carrying no religious affiliation as does the word "church".

The message of Revelation to the 7 ecclesias occurs on the opening of the Lord's Day which is the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy which is now being unsealed after God told Daniel to "close it up" centuries before.

We know the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people because it is so stated as a recurring theme in Daniel chapter 12. Then there is an unsealing of these words to Daniel's people at the "time of the end", vs 4 & 9. Now move forward to the opening of the Lord's day in Rev 1:10 at which time the 7 ecclesias receive an unveiling of  the messages about the 70th week. How does the context of these prophecies to Daniel fast forwarded to the "day of the lord", have anything to do with the Christian church? The context is all about the Jewish people, there is absolutely no Christian church context to any of Daniel's prophecy, all context is only about Israel & Jews.

Because the contexts of Daniel's prophecy is written only to Israel & Jews of the endtime, why in the world would we expect Christ to send the unveiling messages written down by John then give them to Christian organizations that are not Jewish, makes no sense. If three of the four ecclesias  are warned about congregants not being Jews all the while claiming the opposite, what religious culture is the focal point of discussion here? Certainly not Christian culture! How many Christian churches have you ever heard of who are concerned about non-Jews in their midst? Yet Christ is warning these ecclesias of just that problem.








Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2012, 09:42:35 AM »
I guess I've always assumed I was Daniel's 'people.'

And, that the only prophecies that would not directly relate to me are made to 'Jacob.'  [i.e. the time of Jacob's trouble]

I do see a difference between the Christians and the end time Jews, but only until the Jews are converted--then both will become one--two sticks in one hand.

I was thinking the other day, the Christians know the Jews are their brothers, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2012, 03:39:32 PM »
The thing about Tyre...I don't have the time at the moment to pursue.  I kinda don't like goin' after things that for some reason have come to bore me.  It's not just to apply self-control and study the matter anyway.  There are other more profitable interests I need to address.

It was something like 40 yrs. ago maybe that I read something about its destruction.  The prophecy concerning it I heard or read a couple times before that.  I remember a picture of the fishermen drying their nets on rock slabs there.  It is in Isaiah 23 that this message resides.  When I reviewed Is. 23 it doesn't seem like I remember.  Maybe I'll look it up later.  It was considered a very noteworthy fulfillment, what Alexander did in detail.  So, I doubly don't feel very secure trusting wiki to provide reliable facts.  I certainly won't use this unproven fulfillment until
I've covered the ground again.

So much of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled it doesn't seem I missing what's important when I understand God using these words to minister to my inner man.  I'm certainly still retaining the text, which is what's important.  God can draw my attention to some feature He wants me to understand in some certain way.  It's His Word.  I really find edification and the warmth of fellowship in what a few have been explaining of a more spiritual application in the last several posts.  Good to hear the river of the water of life flowing forth from rosered as she tells of the goodness of God in her life.

Rightly understood, there is no warfare between an outer court, carnal, what they call literal interpretation and a more inward, spiritual and symbolic interpretation.  They both have their place.

Personally, I'm just getting backed up with things undone.  I need to share more about Gaebelein and another several points I intend to get to here, besides what I need to engage with here at home.



(Just a tid-bit from history...)

"Clarence Bass (Backgrounds, p.150) correctly argues that Scofield's 'synthesis of Darby's principles forms the core of continuing dipsinsational hermeneutics.' (cited on p.40 of Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth by John H. Gerstner, Ph.D.  continuing...)  One sub-editor who clearly did have a marked influence on Scofield was Arno C. Gaebelein.  Indeed, it appears that the Scofield Bible's prophetic teachings were mainly those of Gaebelein."

(...to be picked up where I let off.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 03:25:40 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2012, 11:45:32 PM »

Obama Administration's War on Persecuted Christians

 by Raymond Ibrahim
 Investigative Project on Terrorism
 August 2, 2012


The Obama administration's support for its Islamist allies means lack of U.S. support for their enemies, or, more properly, victims—the Christian and other non-Muslim minorities of the Muslim world. Consider the many recent proofs:
 
According to Pete Winn of CNS:
 

The U.S. State Department removed the sections covering religious freedom from the Country Reports on Human Rights that it released on May 24, three months past the statutory deadline Congress set for the release of these reports. The new human rights reports—purged of the sections that discuss the status of religious freedom in each of the countries covered—are also the human rights reports that include the period that covered the Arab Spring and its aftermath. Thus, the reports do not provide in-depth coverage of what has happened to Christians and other religious minorities in predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East that saw the rise of revolutionary movements in 2011 in which Islamist forces played an instrumental role. For the first time ever, the State Department simply eliminated the section of religious freedom in its reports covering 2011… (emphasis added).
 
The CNS report goes on to quote several U.S. officials questioning the motives of the Obama administration. Former U.S. diplomat Thomas Farr said that he has "observed during the three-and-a-half years of the Obama administration that the issue of religious freedom has been distinctly downplayed." Leonard Leo, former chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, said "to have pulled religious freedom out of it [the report] means that fewer people will obtain information," so that "you don't have the whole picture."
 
Of course, censoring information is a regular theme under Obama: if the administration is suppressing knowledge concerning the sufferings of religious minorities under Islam, earlier it suppressed knowledge concerning Islam itself (see here for a surreal example of the effects of such censorship).
 
In "Obama Overlooks Christian Persecution," James Walsh gives more examples of State Department indifference "regarding the New Years' murders of Coptic Christians in Egypt and the ravaging of a cathedral," including how the State Department "refused to list Egypt as 'a country of particular concern,' even as Christians and others were being murdered, churches destroyed, and girls kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. "
 
And the evidence keeps mounting. Legislation to create a special envoy for religious minorities in the Near East and South Central Asia—legislation that, in the words of the Washington Post, "passed the House by a huge margin," has been stalled by Sen. James Webb (D-Va):
 

In a letter sent to Webb Wednesday night, Rep. Frank Wolf [R-Va, who introduced the envoy bill] said he "cannot understand why" the hold had been placed on a bill that might help Coptic Christians and other groups "who face daily persecution, hardship, violence, instability and even death."
 
Yet the ultimate source of opposition is the State Department. The Post continues:
 

Webb spokesman Will Jenkins explained the hold by saying that "after considering the legislation, Senator Webb asked the State Department for its analysis." In a position paper issued in response, State Department officials said "we oppose the bill as it infringes on the Secretary's [Hillary Clinton's] flexibility to make appropriate staffing decisions," and suggested the duties of Wolf's proposed envoy would overlap with several existing positions. "The new special envoy position is unnecessary, duplicative, and likely counterproductive," the State Department said (emphasis added).
 
But as Wolf explained in his letter: "If I believed that religious minorities, especially in these strategic regions, were getting the attention warranted at the State Department, I would cease in pressing for passage of this legislation. Sadly, that is far from being the case. We must act now…. Time is running out."
 
Much of this was discussed during Coptic Solidarity's third annual conference in Washington D.C. last month, which I participated in, and which featured many politicians and lawmakers—including the U.K.'s Lord Alton, Senator Roy Blunt, Congressman Trent Frank, Congressman Joseph Pitts, and Frank Wolf himself. As Coptic Solidarity's summary report puts it, "All policy makers voiced strong support to the Copts…. Some policy makers raised concerns about the current U.S. Administration's overtures towards religious extremists."
 
There was little doubt among the speakers that, while Webb is the front man, Hillary Clinton—who was named often—is ultimately behind the opposition to the bill. (Videos of all speakers can be accessed here; for information on the envoy bill and how to contact Webb's office, click here).
 
Even those invited to speak about matters outside of Egypt, such as Nigerian lawyer and activist Emmanuel Ogebe, after describing the sheer carnage of thousands of Christians at the hands of Muslim militants, lamented that Obama's response was to pressure the Nigerian president to make more concessions, including by creating more mosques (the very places that "radicalize" Muslims against "infidel" Christians). This, of course, is consistent with the administration's position that the ongoing massacres of Christians have nothing to do with religion.
 
Indeed, while the administration vocally condemned vandal attacks on mosques in the West Bank (where no Muslims died), it had nothing to say when Islamic terrorists bombed Nigerian churches on Easter Sunday, killing some 50 Christians and wounding hundreds. And when the Egyptian military indiscriminately massacred dozens of unarmed Christians for protesting the nonstop attacks on their churches, all the White House could say is, "Now is a time for restraint on all sides"—as if Egypt's beleaguered Christian minority needs to "restrain" itself against the nation's military, a military that intentionally ran armored-vehicles over them at Maspero.
 
In light of all this, naturally the Obama administration, in the guise of the State Department, would oppose a bill to create an envoy who will only expose more religious persecution for the administration to suppress or obfuscate.
 
Such is the current state of affairs. In its attempts to empower its Islamist allies, the current U.S. administration has taken up their cause by waging a war of silence on their despised minorities—the Christians and other non-Muslims of the Islamic world.
 

Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Forum.
 
Related Topics:  Anti-Christianism, US policy  |  Raymond Ibrahimreceive the latest by email: subscribe to the free mef mailing listThis text may be reposted or forwarded so long as it is presented as an integral whole with complete information provided about its author, date, place of publication, and original URL.

http://www.meforum.org/3300/obama-administration-persecuted-christians

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2012, 12:34:26 AM »
Egypt Reportedly Moves Anti-Aircraft and Anti-Tank Missiles into Sinai in Violation of Israel Peace Treaty
Posted on August 21, 2012

Israel Radio – Voice of Israel – is reporting that Egypt has moved anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles into the Sinai Peninsula, which if true would be a violation of the 1979 Camp David peace accords it signed with Israel which limits the forces Egypt is allowed to position in the Sinai.

Just last week, Israeli officials said they were concerned by the movement of tanks and armored vehicles into the Sinai – ostensibly to aid Egyptian forces in their battle with the growing jihadi terrorist threat growing in the area bordering Israel. But the addition of more sophisticated weaponry and the fact that terrorists in the Sinai are not armed with aircraft or tanks is raising alarm bells in Israel. Arab Affairs Correspondent Eran Zinger reports:


.....
Zinger says Israel's eyes should be open to all the threats near and far, not just to Iran." Israel National News is interpreting the move as threatening to Israel and reminiscent of a grave past experience:

If the report is true, the move is an overtly hostile one toward Israel and can only mean that Egypt is preparing for hostilities with the Jewish state. Ostensibly, Egyptian forces moved into Sinai only in order to crush terrorist activity there. However, the terrorists possess no aircraft. Therefore anti-aircraft missiles can only be intended against Israel's air force.

In the prelude to the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Egypt moved anti-aircraft missiles close to the Suez Canal, despite a commitment not to do so. Israel chose to ignore the move, and the result was catastrophic, when the missiles shot down numerous IAF jets after war broke out

......



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/egypt-reportedly-moves-anti-aircraft-and-anti-tank-missiles-into-sinai-in-violation-of-israel-peace-treaty/

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2012, 01:07:54 AM »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2012, 01:17:41 AM »
12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'

6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

--Zech 12

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2012, 01:30:34 AM »
WRAPUP 3-U.N. monitors leave Syria, battles hit Damascus suburb
By Dominic Evans

BEIRUT, Aug 20 (Reuters) - United Nations military observers left Damascus on Monday after a four-month mission in which they became helpless spectators of Syria's spiralling conflict, instead of monitoring a ceasefire between President Bashar al-Assad's forces and rebels.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/20/syria-crisis-idINL6E8JK9BY20120820


 :coffee2:


"Our mission failed because the two sides did not abide by their commitments," said one uniformed observer, who declined to be named, before seven U.N. cars left a Damascus hotel carrying some of the last members of a mission once 300 strong.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 01:33:54 AM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2012, 01:53:57 AM »

The message of Revelation to the 7 ecclesias occurs on the opening of the Lord's Day which is the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy which is now being unsealed after God told Daniel to "close it up" centuries before.


Let's not forget what the apostle Peter said about a "day" when it is used in prophecy: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] It would apply especially, it seems, to the phrase "the day of the Lord," because he goes on to say, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." [vs. 10]

Dan. 12:9-10 indicates that the prophecies of Daniel (especially the time prophecies, it seems) are sealed to some, but the "wise" will understand them. The wise, I suggest, would have to be those who are "enlightened" by the Spirit of Christ, who understand what is the hope of his calling, and "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." [Eph. 1:17-18]

We know the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people because it is so stated as a recurring theme in Daniel chapter 12.


Daniel 12:1 describes a resurrection, and a deliverance for those whose names are found written in the book. The book of life includes the names of all the saints, as Paul refers to the "women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life." [Phil. 4:3] It includes all the 'elect.'

John said that those whose names are not in the book of life, worship the beast. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." [Rev. 13:8]

There is a powerful warning addressed to all those who worship the beast, in Rev. 14:9-10.

Then there is an unsealing of these words to Daniel's people at the "time of the end", vs 4 & 9. Now move forward to the opening of the Lord's day in Rev 1:10 at which time the 7 ecclesias receive an unveiling of  the messages about the 70th week. How does the context of these prophecies to Daniel fast forwarded to the "day of the lord", have anything to do with the Christian church? The context is all about the Jewish people, there is absolutely no Christian church context to any of Daniel's prophecy, all context is only about Israel & Jews.


Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks concerns "thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain" as mentioned in Dan. 9:16. He identifies Jerusalem with the "holy mountain," mount Zion. He said "O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." [vs. 10] Now this must be the same mountain that he described in the prophecy in chapter 2, which is about the remarkable dream of Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel said, "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." [Dan. 2:34] And he added, "...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." This stone which becomes a mountain is Christ, and his kingdom. "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed." [vs. 44]

The New Testament identifies Christ as the stone, and the foundation foretold by the prophets. Isaiah said, "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." [Isa. 28:16] For example, Paul said, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Cor. 3:11]

Christ's kingdom was established when he ascended to his Father's throne in heaven. The apostle Peter said, on Pentecost, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." [Acts 2:36] Being "made Christ" means he fulfills all the promises about Christ, including receiving an eternal throne, the throne of David, over all Israel. Those who are part of his kingdom are the true Israel, and the Jerusalem above, while Jews who did not believe were cut off, and became "branches broken off from their tree," as Paul says in Romans 11. That means, they are no longer Israel. See Acts 3:21-24, where Peter quotes the law of Moses as saying they have been "destroyed from among the people" meaning the people of Israel. This means they have been destroyed in a spiritual sense; they are not the people of the promises, but Paul says, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Phil. 3:3] But many, it seems, do not believe this. They want to remain Gentiles.

The significance of all this, for understanding Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks, is that when the first 69 weeks were fulfilled, Christ began his ministry, and his ministry was the first part of the 70th week; when he was crucified, there was another half week yet to be fulfilled. Notice that all of the sixty-nine and a half previous weeks, up to then, applied to the earthly Jerusalem, and the times of the prophecy till then are in earthly units, of weeks of years, and weeks of leap years, etc. But when Jesus ascended to heaven, Jerusalem, and the mountain of the Lord's house, were raised up too, as foretold by Isaiah.

Isa. 2:1-2
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it

This was fulfilled; Jesus was raised up to his Father's throne, "the top of the mountains" and exulted above the hills, and Jerusalem was raised up too; this was understood by the apostles, who afterwards spoke of Jerusalem as "heavenly" and "Jerusalem above." The earthly city was cast aside, and identified with Hagar, the bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house.

So after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, the times of Daniel's prophecy apply to the heavenly city, not the earthly one. And we see that in the last half of the 70th week, earthly units of time no longer apply; God's time does not depend on the earth's revolutions, or its orbit around the sun. The units of the final half-week are spiritual, and figurative. It is represented by 1,335 days, and by the phrase "a time, times and a half." These represent the whole age of the church when Christ continues to confirm his covenant. The numbers used to represent this period do not correspond to a literal three and a half years. [42 literal months is about 1,240 days; 1,260 days is short of a literal three and a half years, which is about 1,278 days, or about 1,272 days, counting 3 solar years and 6 lunar months; 1,290 days is too long; also 1,335 days is way too long]

The numbers in each case do not fit a real three and a half years in any calendar.

Because the contexts of Daniel's prophecy is written only to Israel & Jews of the endtime, why in the world would we expect Christ to send the unveiling messages written down by John then give them to Christian organizations that are not Jewish, makes no sense. If three of the four ecclesias  are warned about congregants not being Jews all the while claiming the opposite, what religious culture is the focal point of discussion here? Certainly not Christian culture! How many Christian churches have you ever heard of who are concerned about non-Jews in their midst? Yet Christ is warning these ecclesias of just that problem.


Christians are those who are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." [Eph. 1:13] They are called the "Israel of God." [Gal. 6:16]

Doug

« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:37:01 AM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2012, 02:03:58 AM »
Hey Doug,



:welcome: BACK!

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2012, 02:39:22 AM »
Hey Doug,



:welcome: BACK!

Thanks, Molly.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2012, 03:37:25 AM »
Here is the scripture used to imply the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."  Dan 9:27


Here's the NIV

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]"[e]  Dan 9:27


There's only one problem.  That word "Temple" is not there.  It was added by the translators.

Let's look, at the KJV


Dan 9:27  And he shall confirmH1396 the covenantH1285 with manyH7227 for oneH259 week:H7620 and in the midstH2677 of the weekH7620 he shall cause the sacrificeH2077 and the oblationH4503 to cease,H7673 and forH5921 the overspreadingH3671 of abominationsH8251 he shall make it desolate,H8074 even untilH5704 the consummation,H3617 and that determinedH2782 shall be pouredH5413 uponH5921 the desolate.H8076


No Temple!

So what might this be saying?  What is "the overspreading of abominations" that he[the Antichrist] uses to make the city desolate?

"overspreading"

H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: -  + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).


"abominations"

H8251
שׁקּץ    שׁקּוּץ
shiqqûts  shiqqûts
shik-koots', shik-koots'
From H8262; disgusting, that is, filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).



The overspreading of abominations that causes desolation is the wing of a filthy and idolatrous army[Muslim?] that invades the holy city and remains there for 3.5 years.




20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  Mat 24


28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21


« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 03:54:08 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2012, 04:10:50 AM »
This prophecy does not apply to 70 ad because:

 there was no time to flee to the mountains, the city was besieged during Passover

the city was locked down by the Romans, and people allowed to enter but prevented from leaving

everyone was held inside until the Romans entered the city

the army did not stand in the holy place, it destroyed it, every last stone as predicted by Jesus

the Roman generals forbade and tried to prevent the destruction of the Temple by their troops, but were unsuccessful



The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.

The siege ended with the sacking of the city and the destruction of its famous Second Temple.



Titus surrounded the city, with three legions (V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, XV Apollinaris) on the western side and a fourth (X Fretensis) on the Mount of Olives to the east.[1] He put pressure on the food and water supplies of the inhabitants by allowing pilgrims to enter the city to celebrate Passover, and then refusing to allow them to back out. After Jewish sallies killed a number of Roman soldiers, Titus sent Josephus, the Jewish historian, to negotiate with the defenders; this ended with Jews wounding the negotiator with an arrow, and another sally was launched shortly after. Titus was almost captured during this sudden attack, but escaped.



In mid-May Titus set to destroying the newly built Third Wall with a ram, breaching it as well as the Second Wall, and turning his attention to the Fortress of Antonia just north of the Temple Mount. The Romans were then drawn into street fighting with the Zealots, who were then ordered to retreat to the temple to avoid heavy losses. Josephus failed in another attempt at negotiations, and Jewish attacks prevented the construction of siege towers at the Fortress of Antonia. Food, water, and other provisions were dwindling inside the city, but small foraging parties managed to sneak supplies into the city, harrying Roman forces in the process. To put an end to the foragers, orders were issued to build a new wall, and siege tower construction was restarted as well.



After several failed attempts to breach or scale the walls of the Antonia Fortress, the Romans finally launched a secret attack, overwhelming the sleeping Zealots and taking the fortress. Overlooking the Temple compound, the fortress provided a perfect point from which to attack the Temple itself. Battering rams made little progress, but the fighting itself eventually set the walls on fire; a Roman soldier threw a burning stick onto one of the Temple's walls. Destroying the Temple was not among Titus' goals, possibly due in large part to the massive expansions done by Herod the Great mere decades earlier. Titus had wanted to seize it and transform it into a temple dedicated to the Roman Emperor and the Roman pantheon. The fire spread quickly and was soon out of control. The Temple was destroyed on Tisha B'Av, in the beginning of August, and the flames spread into the residential sections of the city.[1]

--Wikipedia

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2012, 04:45:53 AM »
Here is the scripture used to imply the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."  Dan 9:27


Here's the NIV

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]"[e]  Dan 9:27


There's only one problem.  That word "Temple" is not there.  It was added by the translators.


The first two sections of the 70 weeks, the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, apply to the earthly Jerusalem, and half of the 70th week too, and the units of this part of the prophecy are given in natural units of time, such as weeks of years, and weeks of leap years, but the last half week, which is the "time, times and a half" or one half of seven times, applies to Christ and the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the great King, to which Christians have come. [Heb. 12:22]

The time units that apply to the heavenly city are no longer earthly units, but figurative and spiritual, as can be shown by comparing the numbers used to represent the last half week with a natural three and a half years, as in each case they do not correspond, either with one another, or with the number of days in a natural three and a half years. This leads to the conclusion that they do not represent a natural three and a half years, but are figurative.

Since the last half-week in the 70th week applies to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly city, the prophecy in Dan. 9:27 must apply to the heavenly city and temple as well. That is, the abomination of desolation spoken of in the prophecies of Daniel applies to the church, which is the true temple of God, and the holy city.

The apostle John said, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18] This refers to Daniel's prophecies, in chapter 7, and 9:27, and 11:45 etc. The "little horn" in chapter 7 represents an antichrist spirit, and its "eyes like the eyes of a man" suggest that it represents a human point of view, which is opposed to the divine one. This was already present, John said, in the first century. In the same epistle he wrote, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [1 John 4:3] This shows clearly that the Antichrist is a spirit, not a particular human individual; it has remained ever since the first century. And it is the cause for tens of thousands of denominations, where Christians are scattered, which fulfills Daniel 12:7.

The overspreading of abominations that causes desolation is the wing of a filthy and idolatrous army[Muslim?] that invades the holy city and remains there for 3.5 years.


The temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  Mat 24


28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21

Flee to the mountains, Jesus said, but he did not mean literal ones. He said, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Luke 17:33] The mountains he meant are the promises of God, as mountains are symbolic of God's promises. In Genesis 49:26, when Jacob blessed Joseph, he said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." These blessings were high and lofty, as they were spiritual, and so were compared to mountains. They were also eternal, so he refers to "everlasting hills." These promises of the gospel are what Jesus meant we should flee to.

Doug

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« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:12:56 AM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #124 on: August 22, 2012, 05:03:21 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.


The word for Temple in Hebrew is hêykâl and in Greek is hieron.

That word is not in these passages.  It is not talking about a 'Temple.'

It is talking about Jerusalem, the holy city.

It seems to me if the Spirit wanted to talk about the Temple, He would use the word for Temple.