Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 191016 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2012, 07:48:28 PM »
Reformer, of course you don't have to go down 'the rabbit hole' at another's whim.  Since you are the one who brought up the rabbit hole to begin with, I assumed maybe you would want to develop it more.  But, if you don't, that's fine with me.

I don't understand why we have to agree on anything in this thread.  Prophecy is a topic that has fostered many historical disagreements in the church.  So why should we suddenly have to agree or even be able to talk to each other about it?  We clearly are not communicating,  and I am having trouble even understanding what you are saying at any given time.  I think I have answered you and it turns out I have not in your regard.  So what can we do?  Why can't we just co-exist and parallel play.  We seem to agree on other threads about things, but I never feel compelled to agree just for the sake of being agreeable.  On the other hand, neither do I want to foster an environment that you are somehow feeling hostile towards, either.  From what you've said, I am assuming you believe all prophecy has been fulfilled--but you really aren't required to set me straight on that, either.

The bottom line for me is that prophecy is suddenly opening up for me.  I'm realizing that it's all about Israel and the middle east from this time forward.  I feel like I am seeing it play out in front of my eyes, and very quickly.  All of a sudden, all sorts of passages in the Bible [it is 25 percent prophecy] are making sense that never made sense to me before. Christians read these passages in the Old Testament, and often have no idea where these places are in the modern world, or what peoples are being talked about.  Once you are able to place ancient names on modern places, these prophetic passages start to light up.

So, now I am reading Daniel and Isaiah and Zechariah  and a picture is forming in my mind of what they are saying about events that will occur at the end of the age.  The invasion of Israel by Muslim armies is something I never before connected with, the destruction of certain Muslim countries like Egypt, Arabia,  and parts of Syria--this is what these prophets are describing.  They are describing coalitions of countries that will come against other countries, and telling us the outcome.

We're all familiar how three great religions are fighting over Jerusalem for the last 2000 years, but what will be the outcome?  It is described in detail by God's prophets.

God has picked a people, as well as a territory, to make himself known to the world.  I am reading it completely literally, as you know.  I believe we will see these things play out the way they are described by the Prophets.  That doesn't make me a prophet myself.  Nor does it make me correct in my interpretation of what they are saying. 

To have a dialogue about that you have to think it is real and it is happening now, and I appreciate that many do not agree or even understand enough to take a position one way or another.

But, my feeling now is that the end of the age will be all about Israel, the Middle East,  and the Jews, our brothers who were blinded for our sake, and who will now be brought into the family of Christ through the Great Tribulation, as the mystery of the fullness of the Gentiles is completed.

Does anyone else have to agree with that? Nope.  I know there are plenty of people outside of the board who do. 

So why can't we just agree to disagree, and you can represent your interpretation and I can represent mine?  I have no problem with that.  Any meeting of minds on prophecy is a huge bonus that I rarely expect to find.  But, once it has played itself out, hindsight will be 20/20.


"Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. Mat 24:32

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:03:04 PM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2012, 08:07:08 AM »
Isaiah 528-10 (KJV)
[8] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. [10] The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God

I agree we should share without requiring one another to agree if that is the best we can do.  It is certainly way ahead of needing to keep silent because our disagreement becomes disgruntlement.

I don't see any basis for laying a modern map over ancient places named as in Psalm 83 and then claiming this is a revelation of a last days confederacy.  If Scripture stated something like that it would validate it, but nothing of the sort is said there from what I can find.  There are certain parallels, but to publish those as verifying such a practice is not promoted by any teaching in the Word that I've found or been shown.  To futureize ancient prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled, is not being faithfull to God's Word.

I thought I should mention I'm not a full preterist when I previously referred to preterist books.  My intent in that was how to find what Bible prophecies have credibly been fufilled, how, by whom and when.  After some years and various authors I'm convinced Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD.  "This generation shall not pass until all these signs taken together shall be fulfilled, " is what Jesus says.

Who the chosen people are is proved by God giving them the Holy Spirit.  His "eklessia" is at the center of His work in the soon expected to occur transition into the Millenium, the Age of Tabernacles.  For the near at hand future (eschatology) I believe in what has been called "The Manifestation of the Sons of God," rather than, "The Rapture."  For the distant future (teliology) I believe in the salvation of all, rather than eternal torment.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 02:46:01 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2012, 12:59:43 AM »
This is an overview of middle east prophecy by Bill Salas given in Nov, 2011. 

His conclusion is that the Psalm 83 war will happen first, during which Israel will expand her borders, dwelling safely until the outbreak of the Ezekiel 38 war.  He indicates that the Arab spring events in the countries surrounding Israel are leading up to this first war mentioned in Psa 83.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ7J_IC-3tg




36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.  Luke 21
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:02:48 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2012, 09:27:32 AM »
I believe many things have already been fulfilled ("partial preterist").

I also believe there are many things yet to occur.  My problem is, I think it's hard to know exactly which is which;

"The latest threats by Iran's Ahmadinejad — and Hezbollah's vow to turn Israel into 'a real hell' — come as Israeli officials weigh the risks of launching pre-emptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities." - Fox News   :dontknow:
\
I do believe this all ends in the Prince of Peace's righteousness coving the earth, as the waters cover the sea.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline j.

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2012, 02:35:00 PM »
I believe many things have already been fulfilled ("partial preterist").

I also believe there are many things yet to occur.  My problem is, I think it's hard to know exactly which is which;

"The latest threats by Iran's Ahmadinejad — and Hezbollah's vow to turn Israel into 'a real hell' — come as Israeli officials weigh the risks of launching pre-emptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities." - Fox News   :dontknow:
\
I do believe this all ends in the Prince of Peace's righteousness coving the earth, as the waters cover the sea.

I believe the whole of prophecy has been fulfilled. The only things we are awaiting are the resurrection and the restitution of all things.

It has taken over a decade to move from partial preterist to where I am now. Long journey. I embraced UR must faster, as it made complete sense to me (especially with growing up with parents in the ministry, attending Seminary, and, most of all, being raised in the SBC). Hell never made sense to me, but the prophetic books of the bible made less sense. I found it easy enough to come to terms with the knowledge that there is no hell, but I struggled mightily to understand preterism (it still, to this day, sounds a tad bit heretical to my Soutern Baptist roots).

Regardless of how one views eschatology, we all know who wins in the end (and was already the winner in the beginning ).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 03:03:43 PM by j. »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2012, 02:55:21 PM »
Some things I'm sorting out...

If the 'Great Tribulation' [last 3 1/2 years] is also the time of Jacob's trouble, and if the 'Rapture' happens right before this time which will end with the Ezekiel 38  war, that means that the Jews would be alone without their Christian [allies] brothers to face the Muslim opposition.  I could maybe see them building the Temple at that time, once the church is gone, in a [misguided] attempt to restore their OT religion and lean more heavily on God.

I think it's more likely, though, that they would see that the Christians were right all along, and that Jesus was their Messiah, and convert, thereby becoming the sheep of Bozrah--the sheep from another pen.


"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.  John 10:16


Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.  Eze 37:19
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 03:01:30 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2012, 03:30:04 PM »
The 'rapture' of the church [and manifestation of the sons of God] .


5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12


Satan cast to earth and is revealed as the Antichrist--attacks Israel and Jews everywhere.


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.  Rev 12



end time flight [last 3.5 years] of the elect remnant from Israel to Bozrah--"the woman":


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.  Rev 12


Jesus will deliver his sheep of another pen from Bozrah--at the second coming--the endtime remnant from Jacob.


I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah,
As the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise
by reason of the multitude of men.
13. The breaker is come up before them:
they have broken up,
and have passed through the gate,
and are gone out by it:
and their king shall pass before them,
and the LORD on the head of them.
-Mic. 2:12-13 



26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 
Rom 11
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 03:36:14 PM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2012, 11:30:37 PM »
This morning, the pleasures of viewing he rising mists winding their way up from the valley floor on a cool summer morning just before the sunrise, is God telling me "welcome to my morning".

The biggest problem I see with viewpoints on how prophecy will be fulfilled is often a "generational thing". This is to say,  all of us want it fulfilled in our lifetimes no matter what our age, so we shoehorn fit an interpretation that best fits into what is left of our expected lifetime. If you're 70 it is different than if you are 40.

All the above I have seen discussed at various mileposts in my life. I've learned to be careful on the kinds of emphasis that have been ascribed to certain passages of scripture where it is not particularly clear what the intent & focus really is all about.

I have seen expository synopses that secret revelations can be garnered form certain verses if we would just look at them a "certain way". Ps 83 being one of them in an attempt to identify the ten horns of the beast. The actual portent of this scripture are David's reminisces  of his past in which he makes no allusions to the future. So one should start with what a passage clearly states, not with what some ambiguous interpretation wants it to be an explanation thereof because they can sell books about the latest fad in Bible prophecy.

My point being that we are not that close to the start of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy that we can clearly see how powers in the Middle East will restructure national boundaries. To me it is a complete mystery how 7 Jewish ecclesias in present day Islamic Turkey will come into existence & be the focal point of the messages of Revelation, but it will happen. For it to happen, Turkey as a nation must undergo a radical transformation of its' religion, that may be a lengthy process we won't see in our lifetimes, could be at least 50- 100 years from now at a minimum.

Events now occurring in the Middle East are only vaguely hinting at a transformational process that will lead up to the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, but as things stand today, we're not even close to that point. And because we're not that close is the reason there are so many different ideas on the process by which these prophecies will be fulfilled, & this is precisely the reason of the differences of opinions y'all are having above.

 

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2012, 12:36:41 AM »
I obviously think we are close to the end of the age or I would have no interest in prophecy.  It is sealed until the end, as Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel.  So, like you said, we would be wasting our time.

You bring up a good point about those churches in Turkey.  Do we have to wait for those same churches to be revived in those same places, which are currently ruins?  Not necessarily.  The churches are gone but we are given important information about that part of the world.  It is the seat of Satan, and therefore we could expect it will remain so at the end of the age.  We could also expect any Christians in that part of the world to be suffering the same pressures as the original churches.  "Come out of her, my people."  There are two women in Revelation, one who is the harlot and rides the beast, and the other who is clothed with sun and gives birth to the manchild.

Paul tells us specifically who these two women are, and we can also relate them directly to populations and religions in the present time using the OT.

For those of us who read it literally, it is a story about family.


22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
---Gal 4

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

--Gal 4

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 12:44:03 AM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2012, 09:35:16 PM »
I obviously think we are close to the end of the age or I would have no interest in prophecy.  It is sealed until the end, as Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel.  So, like you said, we would be wasting our time.

And I understand your thinking that we are close to the end of the age. My point in my previous post being that we need to keep a more carefully scrutinizing eye on that "fig tree" that is Israel & the Jews living there. In all of Bible prophecy, one of the most perplexing  issues revolve around those 7 Jewish ecclesias & how they are literally resurrected from the ashes in which they were founded during the Roman era of rule in the 1st century AD.

Daniel having been told to "seal up" his prophecies and hundreds of years later John the Revelator is unsealing those prophecies to seven Jewish ecclesias in a country which today is Muslim. This tells me dramatic events must yet happen in the Mid-east to create an environment for creation Jewish synagogues in that country. If there are no Jewish synagogues  in those cities in the end time, then how does the message of the "sealed book" in Daniel become an "unsealed book" at the end times? 

The message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2012, 12:39:57 AM »
Quote from: Paul
The message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.

Can you develop this for me a little bit more?  You're looking at this in a way I've never looked at it before.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2012, 11:04:39 AM »
Quote from: Paul
The message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.

Can you develop this for me a little bit more?  You're looking at this in a way I've never looked at it before.

In Thess 2-10 there is a persistent overt theme in Paul's message about the revealing of the man of sin & that he cannot make his appearance until something is removed & taken out of the way. This man of sin who will sit in the Jewish temple has a 7 year reign that cannot commence until the Body of Christ (Christians) is removed from the earth because it is the presence of those spirit filled people of the Body of Christ which is preventing Satan from taking over the world up to this point in human history.

The Body of Christ acts as the floodgates of a dam that for so long as that dam's floodgates remain closed Satan's forces cannot overwhelm the world. When the Body of Christ is removed the floodgates open & Satan's forces can flood the world & the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences its' fulfillment.

Probably within 24 hours of the removal of the Body of Christ from the Earth, the opening (unveiling) of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy is read inside the 7 Jewish ecclesias, probably occurs on a Sabbath day. Don't forget, the entirety of the message is to whom? To the 7 ecclesias only, not to anyone else! The contents of the letters are not intended to warn the world of coming events, only to warn the 7 Jewish ecclesias of the events about to come upon the world.

Do you see my point above? If the Christian church (Body of Christ) is no longer present on the earth, the message cannot possibly include them as recipients of the message of Daniel's 70th week of prophecy because they are not here. The book of Daniel today is rejected by Judaism & never referenced to in their synagogue services, but suddenly the veil hiding the meaning of Daniel's prophecy will be lifted from the eyes of all Jews & Israel, and it begins in these 7 synagogues the day after Christians of the Body of Christ are removed from planet Earth, then the message will spread through all of Judaism around the world within a short period of time.

But prior to the time all the above described occurs, we must see radical transformation in Turkey before there can be an environment conducive for the construction of the 7 synagogues. Presently, for Jews to build new synagogues inside an established Muslim nation is unheard of, sure there are a few tiny ones inside Morocco, and two or three other places of Islamic culture & even a few presently in Turkey, but they are not new ones, they are old & on the verge of dissolution.

Am I addressing what you were asking me to expand on?

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2012, 11:26:04 AM »
Yes, thank you, but I'm still having difficulties.  I agree with you completely about the man of sin [Antichrist] being held back until the church of Christ is removed [the 'rapture,'].  But, I see this as happening 3.5 years or more into the 7 year reign of the Antichrist.  In other words, he is reigning but no one sees the depths of his perversion until the last 3.5 years, which is called the 'Great Tribulation.'  So, right now, I'm seeing that happening well into the sounding of the trumpets, and as late as the sixth trumpet.

Whereas you are saying the trumpets don't even sound while the Christian church is on the earth, or, in other words, the whole book of Revelation is written to the Jews.  But, we don't see the two witnesses witnessing to the Jews until the sixth trumpet.

I can't say that I have an argument against what you are saying at the moment,  except that, if you are right, I should fold up this tent of the prophecy thread and silently steal away.  lol

And, I'm not about to do that yet.

So for now I'll just go on considering that the 7 churches are each a type of church that exist right now rather than actual churches in the actual locations in Turkey.

I do know of Christian churches where the laity also worships Satan, for instance.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2012, 12:07:16 PM »

So for now I'll just go on considering that the 7 churches are each a type of church that exist right now rather than actual churches in the actual locations in Turkey.

I do know of Christian churches where the laity also worships Satan, for instance.

You see, I am using only the Bible to discover explanations of any of other of its' written words. There is nothing in Revelation that expresses that these "are each a type of church that exist right now" within Christendom. If you think so, then point to the scripture that explains these 7 ecclesias are somehow a "type" of Christian church. Don't forget, these 7 ecclesias are not in existence until just a short time before the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences.

I'll be the first to agree with that there are Christian churches where the laity worships Satan, and now we have it here in the last 7 years of human history God is finally beginning to deal with it inside these 7 Jewish ecclesias......and then it spreads to the rest of the world's religions ......about time if you ask me!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2012, 02:50:47 PM »
Turkey: Christians Despised
Four years after the brutal murders of three Christians at a publishing house in Malatya, Turkey, attitudes toward Christians in Turkey have become even less favorable. According to a new report from the Turkish Association of Protestant Christians, the Christian minority in Turkey suffer discrimination, slander, personal attacks and attacks against churches on a daily basis.
Legal changes that followed Turkey's bid to become a full member of the European Union made it possible for non-Muslims to found places of worship in Turkey. In practice, however,"negative attitudes of civil servants" pose substantial barriers to non-Muslims, especially Protestants, who want to establish places of worship. Local officials often refuse to issue licenses to new churches; last year, three churches faced legal problems relating to their buildings.

Missionary activities are still considered a national threat, despite the existence of Turkish laws that guarantee citizens the freedom to teach and propagate their faith. In addition, Christian parents have reported that schools are not allowing them to withdraw their children from Islamic teaching, even though authorities, in principle, permit them to do so.

Christians had hoped that national outrage at the murders of the three Christians in Malatya would prompt officials to take a stronger stand against religious intolerance. Necati Aydin, Ugur Yuksel and Tilmann Geske were tortured and murdered in April 2007. The trial for their killers drags on as prosecutors try to tie the case to a larger conspiracy against the Turkish government. Twenty people were arrested in connection with the case in simultaneous raids on March 17, according to Christian Solidarity Worldwide.

The threat of violence against Christians remains. Last week, Turkish media reported that police had detained two teenagers on suspicion of plotting to murder a church leader in Istanbul, according to Compass Direct News.

Sources: Release International, Compass Direct News, Christian Solidarity International.

Posted: March 28, 2011

http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=MzU2


Turkey has experienced political turmoil from the struggle between secular proponents, urban moderates and rural Islamist forces vying for government control. The country has been officially secular since 1924, but 97 percent of the population is Muslim. Questions about the role of religion in society dominate public discourse. The current president is a proponent of political Islam, and there are few signs that Turkey will soon embrace true religious freedom. Thirty-seven of the 60 people groups in Turkey are unreached by the gospel.

Category: Hostile Nation
Religion: Muslim 96.6%, Christian 0.2%
Ideology: Islam
Head of State: President Abdullah Gul

Despite government claims and a constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, Christians do not enjoy freedom of religion in many areas. Politicians, police, Islamic secularists and the growing Islamist movement are hostile to Christianity, and foreign missionaries are seen as a threat and denied visas. Local officials often refuse to issue licenses to new churches. Recently, persecution has increased. Christians frequently experience discrimination, slander, personal attacks and attacks against churches. In 2010, police detained two teenagers suspected of planning to murder a church leader in Istanbul. In March 2010, 20 people were arrested in connection with the 2007 murders of three men, including one German missionary, at a Christian publishing house in Malatya. Five other suspects are being tried in the Malatya murder case.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2012, 03:01:39 PM »
FACTBOX: Christians in Turkey

Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:46pm EST
(Reuters) - Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim but hosts several ancient Christian communities -- dwindling remnants of sizeable populations that prospered for centuries in the Muslim-led but multi-ethnic, multi-faith Ottoman Empire.

They include Syriac Christians, Greek Orthodox, Armenians and Catholics. Modern Turkey was founded as a secular republic by Kemal Mustafa Ataturk on the empire's ashes in 1923.

Here are some details about Christians in Turkey:

* SOME HISTORY:

-- At the beginning of World War One, Christians still made up 20 percent of the population. However in May 1915, Ottoman commanders began mass deportation of Armenians from eastern Turkey thinking they might assist Russian invaders.

-- Thousands were marched from the Anatolian borders toward Syria and Mesopotamia (now Iraq) and Armenians say some 1.5 million died either in massacres or from starvation or deprivation as they were marched through the desert. There are some 70,000 Armenians left in Turkey. Turkey says large numbers of both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks were killed during the violent and chaotic break-up of the Ottoman Empire. The number of Christians has now fallen to around 100,000 in a total population of more than 70 million.

OTHER POPULATIONS:

-- Syriacs number 20,000, the majority living in Istanbul. Syriacs migrated throughout the 20th century to Europe, fleeing first from persecution by the new secular republic, and later, from violence between Kurdish separatists rebels and the Turkish military in the southeast. Syriac Christians speak a form of Aramaic, the language of Jesus. They are not an officially designated minority in Turkey like the Greeks or Armenians, so have no special protection for rights such as private education under the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne's provisions for non-Muslim minorities.

-- Istanbul is the ancient seat of Orthodox Christianity but Greek Orthodox, who make up 20,000 of the population, often complain of discrimination and prejudice. Istanbul, the former Constantinople, was capital of the Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire for centuries until it fell to Muslim Ottoman Turks in 1453.

-- Turkey's 30,000 Catholics hope the government will return the St. Paul church, which was confiscated by the state in 1943, to Christian worshippers. It is used now as a museum.

-- St. Paul, the great evangelizer of the early Christian Church, was born in Tarsus in modern-day Turkey and Pope Benedict proclaimed 12 months of events to honor him in June 2008.

-- Pope Benedict made a sensitive, fence-mending visit to Turkey in November 2006 after he had sparked protests from the Muslim world with a speech that Muslims said portrayed Islam as a religion tainted by violence and irrationality.

-- He was praised for visiting Istanbul's famed Blue Mosque and praying there facing toward Mecca "like Muslims."

PROPERTY AND THEOLOGICAL DISPUTES

-- Under a reform long sought by the European Union that Ankara hopes to join, Turkey's parliament approved last year a law aimed at boosting the property rights of non-Muslim minorities. Turkish authorities have expropriated millions of dollars worth of property belonging to Christians or their churches, especially the Greek Orthodox, over the decades. The law would allow foundations to re-acquire some confiscated properties but not those sold on to third parties -- something that is unlikely to satisfy Christian communities. The EU has urged Turkey to create a comprehensive legal framework that allows all religious groups unrestricted freedom to operate. By law, Syriacs must attend state schools where teaching is in Turkish, but they can be taught about their own language and religion outside school hours. Brussels has raised concerns over restrictions on the training of Christian clergy in Turkey.

ATTACKS ON CHRISTIANS:

-- Turkey's Christian community has been targeted in a spate of attacks over several years, prompting concern among human rights groups and the European Union.

-- The stabbing of an Italian Catholic priest in 2007 highlighted the attacks. Also in 2007, three Christians were killed at a Bible-publishing house at the Zirve publishing house in Malatya, a city in the country's southeast region.

-- Andrea Santoro, another Italian Catholic priest, was shot dead in the Turkish Black Sea city of Trabzon in 2006.

-- Prominent Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was killed in January 2007 in Istanbul by a young nationalist gunman. A prosecutor last month indicted a colonel for failing to provide protection for Dink, who had received death threats.

Sources: Reuters/World Christian Encyclopaedia/britannica

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/01/22/us-religion-turkey-christians-factbox-idUSTRE50L08O20090122

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2012, 03:17:04 PM »
Biblical Prophecy - Turkey (Gomer) Rising from a dormant sleep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QqrvSEDJg


Uploaded by TheMaverickChristian on Oct 9, 2011
Over 2,600 years ago, the prophet Ezekiel foretold of a day when a coalition of nations would gather together to invade the nation of Israel. Known as Gog and his hordes, this coalition will attack at a time when Israel is recovering from a recent war and residing in a relatively peaceful state.
Notice that this attack occurs "after the return of her people from many lands," an indication that this attack will be directed toward the modern state of Israel (whose people have been re-gathered in just such a way), and is not a reference to a past war or a war in the distant future.
The details of this future battle are found in the Book of Ezekiel, Chapters 38 and 39:

"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts [of armour, even] a great company [with] bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: [and] many people with thee."
Ezekiel 38:1-6

The nations cited by Ezekiel are each referenced here by the names of their Old Testament predecessors, yet they all represent nations which exist today.
The other nations referenced in Ezekiel 38 are identified below, with the original Hebrew translation listed first, followed by its modern day equivalent:

Magog, Meshech, and Tubal = Caucasus Area
Persia = Iran
Cush = Sudan and Somalia
Put = Libya
Gomer = Turkey
Beth-togarmah = Turkey, Armenia, and the Turkish-speaking people of Asia Minor

After all, a significant number of Islamic radicals reside in each one of these countries, but while Russia, (Caucasus Area) Iran, and Libya have a recent track record of antagonizing the West - and Israel in particular - the modern nation of Turkey does not. In fact, Turkey is a member of NATO, a candidate for inclusion in the European Union, and is considered by many to be the world's most successful Islamic democracy. Its past relationship with Israel has been one of friendly cooperation. Recent history simply does not indicate that Turkey has cause to attack Israel.
As a result, the question of Turkey?s complicity in the Gog/Magog invasion has baffled prophecy scholars until recent years, as many have had little reason to believe Turkey would join such a coalition.
Yet today's headlines indicate a marked increase in friction between the nation of Turkey and its supposed ally Israel. As Islamic radicalism has enjoyed political success in recent years, Turkey is becoming more and more anti-Western in its foreign policy. And its hardline Islamic leadership's shared disdain for Israel may well be the deciding factor which drives it into the arms of the Gog/Magog alliance.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2012, 03:37:58 PM »
I don't think we have different Bibles.  I am unaware of anything written in scripture saying that the 7 Eklessias in (pro-consular) Asia in the days "Revelation" was written are to be understood as Jewish Synagogues yet in our future.  This again is one of the more difficult things to proove:  that something is NOT written.  NO EVIDENCE, that nothing is said to this effect in The Word of God, means if you put it in His mouth, you've put a lie in His mouth, feigning that He says it when He doesn't.  You are puting yourself in a dangerous place.

Similar objections concerning Psalm 83 seem unavailing.  Alexander the Great (around 300+ yrs. before Christ) destroyed Tyre in detailed fulfillment of Bible prophecy from about 500 yrs. previous.  That Tyre would after be only a place for fishermen to dry their nets is present reality.  However anybody turns Psalm 83's reference from hundreds of yrs. prior to those prophecies concerning Tyre into our present day Hezbollah and the S. Lebanese, it apparently is not with the Bible's help.

You do realize dipsinsationalists have said that the word "Rosh" used by scripture's Hebrew prophets stands for "Russia" to prove they are to invade Israel in our future?  That would make "Rosh Shoshana" the Russian New Year.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2012, 03:39:03 PM »
The Region: Turkey trots toward Islamism – Barry Rubin – www.jpost.com
 
The spending, restrictions and anti-intellectual policies might undermine Turkish democracy, stability and economic progress.
 
The Turkish regime is gradually suppressing freedom as its society moves steadily toward a more hardline Islamic identity. Keep in mind that Turkey has been a very self-consciously modern and secular country. While there were always restrictions on freedom – especially regarding the expression of Kurdish nationalism – it was miles ahead of the usual Middle Eastern standards in that regard. And Istanbul was the ultimate expression of modern, secular Turkey.
 
Thus, a minor incident is of immense psychological importance. Here's one of many. A woman wearing sweatpants sought to board a public bus and a dozen or more passengers blocked her way. One man said, "Look at her. Her head is not covered, shame!" Nobody on the bus came to her defense and the driver did nothing.
 
Why is this especially significant? Because the implication is that head covering for women should be mandatory in public and that those who advocate such measures will use intimidation to achieve this goal, unafraid of any possible consequences. On the contrary, it is those who would advocate freedom of choice who are intimidated.
 
Then there's the new law requiring that every shopping mall, movie theater and indeed every public facility in the country have a Muslim prayer room. One newspaper columnist who ridiculed this idea wrote, "Have you ever heard any conservative or religious person in this country complaining: 'I can't live my religion if there are no [mosques] in opera or ballet houses?'"
 
In other words, such legislation is not happening because there is a burning need for such things but because the government is Islamizing the country. It should be pointed out that anyone who wants to pray could easily find an existing mosque not far away and, indeed, a dedicated room isn't even a requirement for Muslim prayer.
 
OF COURSE, it should be understood that the government is offering a lot of incentives for becoming not just a practicing Muslim but an Islamist. Consider. You want a high-level career, especially in government. Do you go to an academic high school with a tough curriculum or to an Islamic school which focuses not only on religion but on an Islamist interpretation?
 
The number of students attending such religious (imam-hatip) schools has tripled in 10 years, rising to seven percent. The gap is narrowing, especially true for "regular" students since enrollment at open admissions schools fell from 50% to about 25 percent. The rest go to selective schools (21%) or vocational schools (50%).
 
The government has now decreed that Islamic schools be accorded equal status with academic schools for purposes of admission to university and also that Islamic junior high schools will be established. These decisions will accelerate the relative growth of education that indoctrinates students with the regime's ideology.
 
THEN THERE'S Prime Minister Recep Erdogan's announcement that virtually all abortions will be banned, even if the woman was raped.
 
The court-authorized prosecution of a famous Turkish concert pianist, Fazil Say, for sending tweets critical of Islam is another sign of the times. So is the sentencing of a student to eight years' imprisonment solely for the crime of holding up a sign demanding free education at an Erdogan rally. So is the sentencing of a former top general to one year in prison for telling a villager in a personal conversation that the regime had sold out the country.
 
Most recently, the government has decreed that it will choose two-thirds of the Turkish Academy of Sciences' members. Until now, the existing members chose the new ones, and one-third of them resigned in protest.
 
Then there's the foreign policy realm, where there are also dozens of examples of the regime's Islamist orientation. The basic trend is anti-American, ferociously anti-Israel, and supporting Iran and radical Islamist movements. Despite differences with Tehran over Syria – the Turkish regime wants a Sunni Islamist government there; Iran wants to keep its allied incumbents in power – the two countries are constantly expanding their trade to hitherto unprecedented levels.
 
When a US airstrike against terrorists went astray and 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed, Erdogan quickly demanded a US apology and called the dead "our martyrs." It symbolized his eagerness to take the side of any Islamic country or movement against the United States. The Turkish regime has ignored, with US permission, the sanctions on Iran and the media in both countries is full of reports about their ever-tightening relations. The large portion of the Turkish media controlled by the regime systematically spreads anti- Americanism and public opinion polls show ever-rising hostility to the United States.
 
Toward Israel, the regime is so unrelentingly hostile that the leader of the opposition asked whether Erdogan intended to go to war against that country. It has now decided to file criminal charges against Israeli officials involved in the attempt to stop the ship Mavi Marmara from running the blockade on the Gaza Strip, a situation in which Turkish jihadists were killed after assaulting Israeli soldiers. It should be noted that the Turkish government was directly involved in working with a terrorist group – defined as such by the United States and Germany – in mounting that deliberate provocation.
 
Since then, Erdogan has had three non-negotiable demands: that Israel apologize, admitting it committed a crime; that reparations be paid to the families of the dead extremists on the basis of Israeli guilt; and that Israel stop all sanctions on the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. In response, Israel offered to express regrets and pay compensation on a humanitarian basis. Erdogan has refused all compromise – as indicated especially by his third demand – and has no desire to settle the issue.
 
Erdogan's anti-Israel campaign has continued with such actions as insisting that NATO installations in Turkey not provide information to Israel, that Israel be excluded from joint maneuvers in which it formerly participated, and that Israel not be permitted to attend a NATO meeting and an international counter-terrorism conference. (The real problem with the counter-terrorism group is that the Obama administration made Turkey the co-director and didn't even include Israel as a member when it launched the project last September 11.)
 
I have no problem if individual Turks want to be more pious in their religious observance. The problem is that this quickly slides over into intolerance, repression, extremism and a radical foreign policy. Moreover, in the long run the spending, restrictions and anti-intellectual policies might undermine Turkish democracy, stability and economic progress.
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2012, 03:50:35 PM »
This prophecy describes a coalition of named countries and peoples coming against the nation of Israel.  There was no nation of Israel until 1948.  It describes the countries in the coalition being destroyed by God.  This also has not yet happened.



Psalm 83

A song. A psalm of Asaph.


1 O God, do not remain silent;
    do not turn a deaf ear,
    do not stand aloof, O God.

2 See how your enemies growl,
    how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
    they plot against those you cherish.
4 "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation,
    so that Israel's name is remembered no more."

 

5 With one mind they plot together;
    they form an alliance against you—


6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
    of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
    Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
    to reinforce Lot's descendants.


9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
    as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
    and became like dung on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
    all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, "Let us take possession
    of the pasturelands of God."
 

13 Make them like tumbleweed, my God,
    like chaff before the wind.
14 As fire consumes the forest
    or a flame sets the mountains ablaze,
15 so pursue them with your tempest
    and terrify them with your storm.
16 Cover their faces with shame, Lord,
    so that they will seek your name.
 

17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed;
    may they perish in disgrace.
18 Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord —
    that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2012, 04:00:54 PM »
Tyre can't come against Israel because it hasn't existed since the days of Alexander the Great.  This is in accordance with God saying it would never again exist as a city/state.  You're saying it still exists, only under another name?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:05:18 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2012, 04:14:44 PM »
Tyre can't come against Israel because it hasn't existed since the days of Alexander the Great.  This is in accordance with God saying it would never again exist as a city/state.  You're saying it still exists, only under another name?


Tyre  (Arabic: صور, Ṣūr; Phoenician: , Ṣur; Hebrew: צוֹר‎‎, Tzor; Tiberian Hebrew צר, Ṣōr; Akkadian:  Ṣurru; Greek: Τύρος, Týros; Turkish: Sur; Latin: Tyrus) is a city in the South Governorate of Lebanon. There were approximately 117,000 inhabitants in 2003,[1] however, the government of Lebanon has released only rough estimates of population numbers since 1932, so an accurate statistical accounting is not possible.[2]

Tyre is an ancient Phoenician city and the legendary birthplace of Europa and Elissa (Dido). it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon[4] and houses one of the nation's major ports. Tourism is a major industry. The city has a number of ancient sites, including its Roman Hippodrome which was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1979.[5]

Tyre was badly damaged in the late 1970s (Operation Litani) and early 1980s (1982 Lebanon War) during the war between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). The city was used as a base by the PLO, and was nearly destroyed by Israeli artillery.[23] After Israel's 1982 invasion of southern Lebanon, the city was the site of an Israeli military post. In late 1982, and again on November 1983, buildings housing Israeli headquarters were destroyed by bombs, causing dozens of deaths in both cases and known in Israel as the First and Second Tyre Catastrophes. The 1983 explosion, by a suicide truck, happened only 10 days after similar car bombs exploded in the US Marines and French paratroop barracks in Beirut. Israel and the US blame Iran and Hezbollah for all explosions, but they have denied any involvement.

During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, several rocket-launching sites used by Hezbollah to attack Israel were located in rural areas around the city.[24] At least one village near the city was bombed by Israel, as well as several sites within the city, causing civilian deaths, and adding to the food shortage problem inside Tyre.[25] Israeli naval commandos also raided Hezbollah targets within the city.[26]

--Wikipedia



One word---HEZBOLLAH!


Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2012, 10:38:03 PM »
Psalms 83 references Edom. 

Edom was completely absorbed into "Israel", even though "Israel" is not Israel.  It mentions the son of the bondwoman too.  Who is that?  Jerusalem below. 

So we have a country called Edom thats not actually Edom, attacking literal Edom aka "israel", which by the way was never the name of a country, the kingdom of Israel was where the king resided, and that included in the wilderness.  But that was all a shadow of the reality which is now which is Christ in YOU. 

Then we have a people Ishmael, which never had a region or country IIRC they were nomads.  These people have been explicitly identified as a type of the natural man warring with the spiritual man.  And that man is the son of the bondwoman, literal Jerusalem.  Meaning that Edomites calling themselves Jews,( yet is a jew one outwardly?) are spiritually called Ishmaelites.  These are going to be attacked by literal Ishmaelites or arabs?

 :Chinscratch:

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2012, 11:25:55 PM »
Edom was a country right below Israel to the South, which is now part of the country called Jordan, RHM.




Edom ( /ˈiː.dʌm/[1]; Hebrew: אֱדוֹם, Modern Edom Tiberian ʼĔḏôm ; "red"; Assyrian: Udumi; Syriac: ܐܕܘܡ) or Idumea (Greek: Ἰδουμαία, Idoumaía; Latin: Idūmaea) was a Semitic inhabited historical region of the Southern Levant located south of Judea and the Dead Sea. It is mentioned in biblical records as a 1st millennium BCE Iron Age kingdom of Edom,[2] and in classical antiquity the cognate name Idumea was used to refer to a smaller area in the same region. The name Edom means "red" in Hebrew, and was given to Esau once he ate the "red pottage", which the Bible used in irony at the fact he was born "red all over".[citation needed] (Genesis 25:30 KJV)
 
The Holy Bible and The Torah describe the Edomites as descendants of Esau, the eldest son of the Hebrew patriarch Isaac.




Biblical Edom

The Edomites' original country, according to the Tanakh, stretched from the Sinai peninsula as far as Kadesh Barnea. Southward it reached as far as Eilat, which was the seaport of Edom.[7] On the north of Edom was the territory of Moab.[8] The boundary between Moab and Edom was the Wadi Zered.[9] The ancient capital of Edom was Bozrah.[10] According to Genesis, Esau's descendants settled in this land after displacing the Horites. It was also called the land of Seir; Mount Seir appears to have been strongly identified with them and may have been a cultic site. In the time of Amaziah (838 BCE), Selah (Petra) was its principal stronghold,[11] Eilat and Ezion-geber its seaports.[12]
 
Genesis 36 lists the kings of Edom

--Wikipedia

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2012, 11:51:01 PM »
I don't think we have different Bibles.  I am unaware of anything written in scripture saying that the 7 Eklessias in (pro-consular) Asia in the days "Revelation" was written are to be understood as Jewish Synagogues yet in our future.  This again is one of the more difficult things to proove:  that something is NOT written.  NO EVIDENCE, that nothing is said to this effect in The Word of God, means if you put it in His mouth,

And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?