Prophecy

[Molly]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11



Who is this Deliverer and where is it written?



15 But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

--Isa 51







8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers

on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

For they did not continue in my covenant,

and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.



--Heb 8

--Jeremiah 31:31-34



20 "And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the Lord.

21 "And as for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord: "My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children's offspring," says the Lord, "from this time forth and forevermore."

--Isa 59




9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
 
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

--Zech 12




And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.
--Eze 36:26

[Paul L]

In perusing through some of these postings particularly about the current conflict going on between Syria & Turkey by Molly, it caused a spark in my imagination that took me to the opening of Revelation & the 7 letters to those ecclesias & the fact they are located in Turkey during the time spoken of  by Daniel as the 70th week.

Presently only a couple sites of those cities have a significant human population, so how do 7 ecclesias show up there during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy?

In Dan 12:1 it is made very clear to Daniel that the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people Israel. Now fast forward to Rev 1 & the letters to the seven congregations in the named cities in present day Turkey. It must follow that if the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy deals with the redemption of Israel as is stated in the 12th chapter of Daniel, then these seven congregations in Turkey are Jewish synagogues & these letters are now the unsealing of the prophecies to his people that Daniel was told to seal up.

Turkey is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism as is it's now hated  neighbor Syria. How do Jews establish such a foothold in modern day Turkey that they can build synagogues in those 7 cities? The only answer is a restructuring of boundaries of those two nations caused by intensive warfare that we may now viewing the seeds of. Syria may be about to fall & Turks will shed no tears over its' demise. Are these two countries about to go at it only to cause the demise of both nations to the point it will be easy pickings for the Jews in Israel to simply walk over their present day borders & take over any geographical location they like?

Somehow there needs to be a radical restructuring of Middle Eastern boundaries of Syria & Turkey with Israel in control for those 7 synagogues to be established with any kind of security. I'm really looking for this conflict in Syria to blow up into something so big that we will be stunned by the shock of how fast it may happen & the breadth of it  reshaping a lot of national boundaries to Israel's favor.

[reFORMer]

Or it rather simply is chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation are to the seven churches of Asia in the days of the writing of Revelation.

[Molly]

Interesting theory, Paul.  I agree that Israel will eventually expand her borders to the original huge tract of land granted to her by God, between the Nile and the Euphrates.

But, first, I think, will be the time of Jacob's trouble, and it will look like Israel is losing.



France Is Preparing A Plan To Evacuate Its Citizens From Israel
Adam Taylor|Aug. 9, 2012, 11:16 AM


French newspaper La Tribune reports that an evacuation plan for 200,000 French citizens currently living in Israel has been devised.

French diplomatic sources told the newspaper that the plan was launched due to the rising risk of a conflict with Iran. The aim is to not be caught "off guard" if Israel is attacked by missiles launched by Iranian forces or Hezbollah.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/france-is-preparing-a-plan-to-evacuate-its-citizens-from-israel-2012-8#ixzz23I0Wm0JG



Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

[Paul L]

Well Molly, here's some additional background on this to add to my hypotheses.

Some days ago I was looking at a map showing the locations of Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer in the times of the Old Testament prior to the Assyrian/Babylonian captivities of the northern & southern tribes of Israel. We know these three areas are prominent in prophecy & in other places of the Bible & have been referred to as the "north" parts which in the past have come upon Israel & will do so again in the future. What is interesting about the locations of those 7 ecclesias is their location, right smack dab in the middle of Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer also once a part of the ancient Assyrian empire just before Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar took over.

In Dan 11 are several references to the King of the North. The Bible identifies Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer as the area of the north parts, also the location of Assyria which came from the north to take captive the northern 10 tribes of Israel. It can't possibly be coincidental these "north parts" are also the locations of the 7 ecclesias in Revelation 1.

The so-called Anti-Christ will be accepted by Israel as their messiah, therefore he being a Jew himself who is also King of the North, is the one (or his father) who establishes boundaries along the present northern Israeli border for creation of a northern security zone for Israel to stop the rocket attacks they have been threatened with by Islamic ideologues who want to wipe them out.

Here's the scenario I'm imagining for a map of Mideast boundaries of the 70 week, that Israel via military intervention has forced the fall of present Islamic leaders in Syria & Turkey & forced the present day leadership of Iran (Persia) to abandon plans to create Shiite fundamentalism in the area.

With these areas of the North firmly in the control of Israel's powerful military forces, the Israeliis will forcefully set up governments over which they will initially dictate the terms of leadership of the area, thus the establishment of 7 synagogues of Rev 1 by dictate of the now Jewish controlled leadership. I just don't see any other way possible this could happen.

Also there seem to be hints  in Rev 2 that the so-called Anti-christ actually comes out of one of these seven ecclesias, that he is one of those Nicolaitanes who is of the synagogue of Satan in verse 9.

[Molly]

Paul, again a fascinating theory.  I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches.  As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently  in the end times.

Even at the times of those churches, we see Jesus identifying their location as within Satan's realm.  He identifies the synagogue of Satan in Smyrna,  Pergamos as the seat of Satan [where seat=throne] and the place where Satan dwells.  There are some at Thyatira and Pergamos churches who are worshipping Satan.  In Sardis they have defiled their garments, and the works of Laodicea are lukewarm at best.  Ephesus is the location of the temple of Artemis and a central location for the pagans of the ancient world.

That these churches could thrive at all in this environment is a miracle.  But we know even that didn't last, as Turkey fell to the Muslims and became the seat of the Ottoman Empire.  Turkey's last act before it was dismantled was the genocide of some 2 million Armenian Christians in WW1. 

Today, we see the Caliphate rising again, a revived Ottoman Empire, and a Muslim civil war of sorts occurring, where it looks as if Turkey might rise victorious if Syria falls, and then Iran.  A Caliphate of united Muslim countries surrounding Israel would be disastrous to Israel, imo, but I don't see many discussing this.

So, assuming these churches were beachheads in the dwelling place of Satan to begin with, it makes perfect sense to me that at the end times, beachheads would again be established that would be this time successful.  But, I would like to see more scripture supporting this thesis.


http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/pergamon/

[Paul L]

Paul, again a fascinating theory.  I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches.  As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently  in the end times. /quote]

In the back of my old KJ Bible I have several maps of the holy land area down through the bible ages. The very first map is that of the Near East in the time of the Assyrian empire & it shows even the city of Sardis was in existence at that time in which would correspond to the area of Meshech or Mushki, then advance a few centuries to the time of Apostle Paul's travels and there is a map showing the routes of his travels with the seven cities of those ecclesias noted by star indicators.

Maybe if you type into a search engine for a map of the Assyrian Empire you can come up with a similar map as I have in my Bible that will give you the locations of Meshech, Tubal, & Gomer. Meshech is located in the very most Eastern part of present day Turkey, Gomer in the central part, & Tubal in the extreme southeastern part. All seven ecclesias are located in the Meshech part which is true north of Israel. Let me know how you  make out, if not I can scan & then email the two maps to you.

[Paul L]

Paul, again a fascinating theory.  I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches.  As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently  in the end times. /quote]

In the back of my old KJ Bible I have several maps of the holy land area down through the bible ages. The very first map is that of the Near East in the time of the Assyrian empire & it shows even the city of Sardis was in existence at that time in which would correspond to the area of Meshech or Mushki, then advance a few centuries to the time of Apostle Paul's travels and there is a map showing the routes of his travels with the seven cities of those ecclesias noted by star indicators.

Maybe if you type into a search engine for a map of the Assyrian Empire you can come up with a similar map as I have in my Bible that will give you the locations of Meshech, Tubal, & Gomer. Meshech is located in the very most Eastern part of present day Turkey, Gomer in the central part, & Tubal in the extreme southeastern part. All seven ecclesias are located in the Meshech part which is true north of Israel. Let me know how you  make out, if not I can scan & then email the two maps to you.

Sorry Molly, somehow I messed up the quote immediately above, I guess I erased a bracket off the bottom

& my response ended up as part of your quote, but you seem good at this sort thing so I'm sure you'll get the message of the point I was making about the maps.

[Molly]

Turkey as the antichrist nation

http://schnellmann.org/Turkey_As_The_Antichrist_Nation.pdf


Paul, check out this article.  It looks like Yavan/Ionia is in the part of Turkey where the churches are.  From this verse in Zech 9:


Zechariah 9 clearly lists Yavan/Ionia (Turkey) the primary player in the Last-Days attack
against Israel. Many will have missed this prophecy due to a commonly used yet misleading
translation: "I will rouse your sons, 0 Zion, against your sons, 0 Greece (Yavan, Ionia)."
The key aspect of this passage is the reference to the sons of a place called Zion (Jews)
fighting against the sons of a place called Yavan (Turks). Yavan was a descendant of Noah
who came to live on the western coast of Asia Minor, or modern day Turkey, in the area that
came to be known as Ionia. See also Joel 3:6. Zechariah 9 is clearly speaking in terms that
only can be applicable to the Last-Days, and the return of Jesus the Messiah "Jehovah will
appear over them." After this time, the Messiah will rule Israel and her land will be far
greater than it is today:

[Paul L]

Molly, I linked to the article & read it. Big problem is where he is asserting that the so-called Anti-Christ, who will be the false messiah to the Jews of Israel, will be Muslim. The Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.

The Christian powers of the west are presently in a struggle with the Islamists of the middle east, a struggle the Islamists have no hope of winning because of the West's overwhelming military superiority. There is not even the remotest posiibilty that the 7 ecclesias can be re-established in the same cities, as in the time of Paul, with Muslims in control of the country, their religious beliefs do not allow them to live side by side with Jews or Christians.

I've seen this hypotheses before of an individual trying to sell a very expensive book about an Islamic Anti-Christ. I believe it was on the WND, WorldNetDaily, could be the same guy, I poo pooed it immediately as I saw he was proposing the Muslim Anti-Christ thing.

The borders of almost all the countries of the middle east have been drawn & redrawn many times in the 20th century, and this 21st century will be no different due to the rise of militant Islamists. I think what we see going on in Syria will stir the Israelis to action to protect their own northern border, and they may just go so far as to lend a hand in toppling Assad, the only question in my mind is at what border do the Israelis stop, and it looks to me like all the way to Turkey.

[Molly]

The Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.

Not sure the Jews would have much to say about it.   It's interesting that the Muslim Mahdi ['Messiah'] so closely resembles our Antichrist.   Some think the Temple will be rebuilt before this happens.  I don't.

But, also, one event doesn't preclude the other.  Have you given some thought to the time of Jacob's trouble?  Why use the name Jacob?  Because Jacob has not yet become Israel, even though he lives in a country he has named Israel.



6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
 
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

--Jer 30

[reFORMer]

(Other than it isn't prophecy) one of the biggest problems of cooking up "end-time" scenarios by explaining "Bible prophecies" is using re-tread from already fulfilled passages.  I know multiple fulfillment is the popular recent tradition we evangelicals have grown up on and are surrounded with.  It has come about by having so many trying to be authorities on what is written without studying it.  They didn't know it had already happened.

It's not only rare to see an attempted defense of double-duty prophecy, I've never seen a succesful proof from the words of God that prophecies once fulfilled are going to be fulfilled yet again in our future.  Since this theory unapoligetically riddles the strange march of Scripture snippetts spouting from most prominent "teachers of Bible prophecy" (see, these people are not prophecying) I have no confidence that I'll hear anything else reliable.  I don't expect people like this to get much help from God to find new truths since they refuse to do their homework, verifying or invalidating the old "truths" they've been indoctrinated to believe.  God likes a humble and repentant soul.

Like earlier on this thread, and other times in the past, I posted a thing studying out what little Scripture exists to give us the idea the change coming to us at the appearing of the lord is, "...in a moment, in a twinckle of an eye."  The facts dont seem to support those words of instantaneous change as good translations.  I still lack absolute certainty, but feel better with what seems a more accurate view of what is written there.  Who looked at it and didn't change, just went on with what was believed before?  How can we reject His help and expect God to grant us grace in our search, granting us words of wisdom and knowledge that honor those devoted to Him, those seeking His face and hungry to understand His word?

[Molly]

(Other than it isn't prophecy) one of the biggest problems of cooking up "end-time" scenarios by explaining "Bible prophecies" is using re-tread from already fulfilled passages.  I know multiple fulfillment is the present popular recent tradition we evangelicals have grown up on and are surrounded with.  It has come about by having so many trying to be authorities on what
is written without studying it.  They didn't know it had already happened.

'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?  These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?

For instance, the city of Damascus has never been destroyed in all its ancient history, but we see it described as utterly destroyed, 'taken away from being a city, a fallen ruin.'   We know this has not happened yet.  So, when we see a civil war promulgated by outside interests and heavy bombing in Damascus, do you think maybe we should perk up our ears?

Nobody is trying to be a prophet.  A prophet has to live out the word he speaks.  He has to marry a whore and experience infidelity himself so that he can speak God's word to God's people who are being unfaithful to him.  A watchman doesn't have to be a prophet, just be what he is, someone who watches and describes what he sees coming on the horizon.

[Molly]

The Sheep of Bozrah

http://endtimepilgrim.org/bozflight.htm


At the time of Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation], God will preserve a remnant of Jacob, the sheep of Bozrah.



Isaiah 46:3-4
3 Listen to me, O House of Jacob,
And all the remnant of the House of Israel,
Who have been carried by me from the belly,
Whom I carried from the womb.
4 Until you grow old I AM the One.
And until you turn gray I will carry you.
I have done this from your beginning, and I will continue to bear you until the end;
I will rescue you, and carry you to safety.



Micah 2 
12. I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee;
I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah,
As the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise
by reason of the multitude of men.

[reFORMer]

'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?  These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?

So there you have the question:  "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?"  The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals.  Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor.  I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.

[Molly]

'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?  These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?

So there you have the question:  "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?"  The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals.  Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor.  I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.

Are you saying this is something impossible to do ourselves?  We have the Bible, and pretty much have access to history.

What about the prophecy about Damascus?  for instance.

I don't need a seminary to study theology.  Why prophecy?

[Paul L]

The Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.

Not sure the Jews would have much to say about it. 

Initially the Jews in Israel will have a lot to say about it,  as I pointed out they are the most dominant military power in the Middle East & there is no hint they are about to go through a demise any time soon. They could topple Iran right now if they wanted to, Turkey being a member of NATO would be a more troublesome situation, but presently Israel doesn't have the kind of animosity stemming from Turkey as from Iran or Syria.

It won't surprise me at all to see some kind of NATO action co-ordinated with Israel that causes Syria to tumble & possibly fulfill that long standing prophecy about Damascus that has yet to be fulfilled.

[reFORMer]

'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?  These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?

So there you have the question:  "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?"  The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals.  Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor.  I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.

Are you saying this is something impossible to do ourselves?  We have the Bible, and pretty much have access to history.

"No Scripture is of private interpretation;" so, I would assume it isn't something we do all on our own.  All this "access" is due to other people's work.  Most don't exercise their right of access to knowledge, relying on what has been handed down to them by those who surround them.  If there is a specific root to the problem, it is the people who made up dispensational eschatology for The Scofield Reference Bible, Arno Gaebelein in particular, who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy.  As well, a lot of the preachers of the late 1800's 'til now are not very well read.  You remember Peter warning about those who are, "Unlearned and unstable?"  Peter was referring to Paul's letters, "...in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3¹⁶ CLT)

What about the prophecy about Damascus?  for instance.

If there's something future to Damascus prophecies, fine.  You know the ancient nations Israel displaced were something like our cities and towns.  Our mayors are something like what they called a king.  I would check on the underlying language to find out what's being said before gettin' up a hooten-nanny over finding something in a lax translation.

I don't need a seminary to study theology.  Why prophecy?

I referred to a Seminary LIBRARY.  It is to access books that record connections between historical events and Biblical prophecy.  Ordinary public libraries seem to have pretty slim pickin's when it comes to Biblical studies, though you could try some kind of historical search, particularly after finding the prophecy connection.  It seems the Barton-Payne book and its references would be the best key to fulfilled prophecy I know of.  A lot of Seminaries would have few, if any, works deemed preterist.  They seem to be extra expensive anyway.  Particular Seminary libraries you could expect to be expunged of certain materials.  The book Rapture by Valvrud has quotes, referenced in the back, to books not in Dallas Theological Seminary library at the time Valvrud was the head of the Seminary and writing his book.

I know people who brag that they don't read these "other" books.  God will give them the true interpretation.  They don't go to man to find out what God is talking about.  Of course, they forget the man of their own heart.

[Molly]

If there's something future to Damascus prophecies, fine. You know the ancient nations Israel displaced were something like our cities and towns. Our mayors are something like what they called a king. I would check on the underlying language to find out what's being said before gettin' up a hooten-nanny over finding something in a lax translation.

Any translation you pick seems pretty clear to me.




A prophecy against Damascus:
"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the Lord Almighty.


12 Woe to the many nations that rage —
they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar —
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.

--Isa 17


In the evening, sudden terror.  Before the morning, they are gone!

Does it get any clearer than that?

[reFORMer]

Arno Gaebelein and Jewish expectations.

Does it get any clearer than that?

[Molly]

Psalm 83 end time confederacy


O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel's name is remembered no more."
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot's descendants.

--Psa 93



The Psalm 83 war.

http://www.bibleprophecywatchmen.com/index.php/prophecies/89-upcoming-psalms-83-war-by-bill-salus



Tents of Edom = Palestinians and So. Jordanians

Ismaelites = Saudis

Moab = Palestinians and Central Jordanians

Hagrites = Hagarenes-Egyptians

Gebal = Hezbollah and No. Lebanese

Ammon = Palestinians and No. Jordanians

Amelek = Arabs of the Sinai Area

Philistia = Hamas of the Gaza Strip

Tyre = Hezbollah and S. Lebanese

Assyria = Syrians and No. Iraqi's



Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Gaza, Palestinians

[Molly]

Arno Gabelein and Jewish expectations.

Does it get any clearer than that?

Maybe you could clarify. 

[reFORMer]

If there is a specific root to the problem, it is the people who made up dispensational eschatology for The Scofield Reference Bible, Arno Gabelein in particular, who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy.  As well, a lot of the preachers of the late 1800's 'til now are not very well read.  You remember Peter warning about those who are, "Unlearned and unstable?"  Peter was referring to Paul's letters, "...in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3¹⁶ CLT)

The above brief explanation (about dispensational eschatology) surrounding Arno Gaebelein is from only a few posts back, #67.

[Molly]

Since you won't elaborate beyond this:

who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy

and, since I don't know if these Jewish expectations are based on the OT or not, I'll just say that for the Jews, the story is not over, not because they are misreading their Bible, or because they missed their Messiah, but because it was intended by God that they do so in order to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, at which time, those Jews intended to be brought into the kingdom, will be.

So, it appears to me that they didn't miss anything.  It has not been fulfilled for them, yet.   And, why should I, as a Christian, ignore this fact?  If the story is not over for them, it's not over for us, either.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  Rom 11

[reFORMer]

I'll attempt to share a little more about Gaebelein, other than correcting the spelling of his name, when I am able.  Forgive me, but I'm also reconsidering my use of time here.  I don't have to go down the rabbit trails everybody else wants me to, studying for their convenience, at their whim (which seems to be happening not just here, but all over the place elsewhere in my life when I'm not at tentmaker.)  Forgive me please if I seem to be requiring the same from you.

You certainly don't have to think like me to have God love and accept you, nor for me to accept you either.  But, as for working for others casual interests, as an example:  if you can't respond on what I wrote about the use of the concept "instantaneous" in the rapture doctrine, does that mean you're going to continue thinking that way regardless of so little evidence, rather than consider the possibility God is saying something else?  I'm open to it.  It does seem the body of Christ eventually comes to a synchronicity:  those who've already entered, the raised dead and those that remain.  However, our coming into total victory seems to happen across a generation (forty years) with a couple of prior days (each twenty years long) of preparation, making the third day be the commencement of Jesus' Generation.  And, with no direct statements of scripture to quote for any of the other points I enumerated, you just posting some lengthy passages...well, why beat a dead horse?!

I think God made us to amount to something.  Even if, for the entire human race, it isn't much from one perspective, "They all go up in the balance," it is of great value from another point of view.  Any one of us, our words are meant to be purified and anointed so they make a difference for having been spoken.  Being, "...imitators of God as dear children," means I should come to where, if I say, "Light, be!" then, "Light is."  If it ain't happenin' maybe I should find some other darkness into which to speak.  Or, am I being just too serious?  Life's too short to unnecessarily drag out distress, anguishing to no avail over what others disregard.  Rather than a state of prolonged misery, I seek to be filled with the glory of God.  That is wherein we change, "From glory to glory."  That is being full of the Holy Spirit.  That is a state of bliss.