Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 217300 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2012, 11:17:27 AM »
Israel is...finding themselves needing more than ever a Christian America to lean on which is no longer there.


That's really sad.  And half of America and much of the world has little idea what's going on with that every day here in America.

"...we are going to fundamentally transform America".  The crowd cheers.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jugghead

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2012, 03:39:05 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
The saints are going to take over, not the wicked.  The saints are going to stay.  The wicked will be removed

I agree!

IMO, it is not the wicked man who will be removed, it is the wickedness in the man that will be removed and that will be done when God pours out His Spirit upon the world.

We are seeing the beginning of this pouring out, the beginning of the rain. As the world was completely flooded by water ( the water baptism of the world) so will the world be baptized with the Holy Spirit and it will come as a downpour upon this world, changing the hearts and minds of men. A changing from within.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 03:45:36 PM by jugghead »
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2012, 07:35:12 AM »
Not to be gloomy or anything [ok maybe I am gloomy tonight], but Jesus said it himself--

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  Mat 24:21
That statement by Jesus referred to what happened a little less than 40 years later.  Many of those who heard His prophecy lived to see it come to pass, just as He said.   Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed.  The people of temple Judaism were driven from the land and scattered among the gentiles.

I don't believe we can understand what is in the process of coming to pass when our minds are full of failed theories of Scripture interpretation from previous days.  All the more so when those teachings are not supported by any direct quotation from Scripture.

I will think this way if you can give me actual
Scriptural statements that say any of the following:
1.) The sudden
2.) disappearance
3.) of racially gentile believers
4.) before (or mid or post)
5.) 7 years great tribulation
6.) Jesus coming "for" His people
7.) followed by a gap (however long) before
8.) a 2nd Second coming

« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:04:42 PM by reFORMer »
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2012, 07:47:57 AM »
Quote from: Reformer
The saints are going to take over, not the wicked.  The saints are going to stay.  The wicked will be removed

I agree!

IMO, it is not the wicked man who will be removed, it is the wickedness in the man that will be removed and that will be done when God pours out His Spirit upon the world.

We are seeing the beginning of this pouring out, the beginning of the rain. As the world was completely flooded by water ( the water baptism of the world) so will the world be baptized with the Holy Spirit and it will come as a downpour upon this world, changing the hearts and minds of men. A changing from within.
I think it will possibly be both the removal of wickedness from mankind and the removal of stubbornly wicked men through Divine judgements.  I'm open to that "fire" of the Holy Spirit doing more completely the transformation through the purifying fire of His Love nature rather than the destroying nature of another order of fire.  It certainly is going to be much more that many times over than the popular report has it.

Like His slaying them with the sword of His mouth.  That is what happened to me in being regenerated by  His Spirit.  The old Adam man has been being slain by what He is speaking to me.  That word is activating the new man to take over.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2012, 08:06:15 AM »
James, I have many preteristic leanings as well.  I've had the thought that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in 70 AD, but sometimes I wonder - at least about parts of it.  As you know, it's a very big chapter used to describe "end times events".

One of those things that has given me pause is this statement; "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning...nor ever shall be".  Sometimes it's hard to imagine that there will never be a greater tribulational cataclysm than the Jews experienced at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD - you know, "that was it" - when there seems to be a) so much technological potential today and b) so much teaching along the lines of LaHaye's Left Behind.  Those things have a definite influence.

So you personally don't see any future "showdown" as being as "great" [bad] as it was in 70 AD?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »
I don't know for sure.  It seems there have been years of "tribulation" and persecution of Christians in our times:  The Nazis (killing 7 million Christians and 6 million Jews,) under Maoism in Red China, under Lenin and those Communist leaders following him in the Soviet Union, and now under Moslems world wide.

The possibility I see is described in Revelation 12.  Our being brought into complete victory, a resurrection people described as a man child that the enemy cannot prevent, defeat or remove.  It seems (also from Rev 12) that the dragon will go after those remaining in the earth who are serving God and obeying His word.  That could be the final big trouble as we, that is, all mankind are about cross over into the age of Tabernacles, what is called the Millennium.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:26:53 AM by reFORMer »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 08:30:27 AM »
James, I have many preteristic leanings as well.  I've had the thought that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in 70 AD, but sometimes I wonder - at least about parts of it.  As you know, it's a very big chapter used to describe "end times events".
Everybody seems to agree there Jesus comes twice. Some sort of double prophesy?

Quote
One of those things that has given me pause is this statement; "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning...nor ever shall be".
What if I would take this 'literally'?
What if it means the greatest harvest of souls?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 08:35:12 AM »
1)The sudden

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15

2)disappearance

17  we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  1 Thess 4

3) of racially gentile believers [some Jews are believers also]

he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--  Eph 1:5

4)before or mid or post

Before the Great Tribulation [last 3.5 years]

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 1 Thess 5:9


)7 years of great tribulation

The great tribulation is 3.5 years

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
Dan 9:26

The prince that shall come= the Antichrist

midst of the week=3.5 days=3.5 years
those in Jerusalem/Israel will be utterly destroyed to the point decreed

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:27


At this time the prince of Israel will stand up for the Jews [the 144,000 sealed tribes of Israel]--the Gentile believers have already been removed because they return with Christ at the 'second coming.'

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book


This is the second coming of Christ which is different from the 'rapture of the church'

The elect [gentile church] is already in heaven because we see them summoned by the angels to accompany Christ when he returns

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  Mat 24:31

These saints will return with Christ at the 'second coming'

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1



All those left on earth will mourn when they see him coming with clouds [of saints/witnesses]



And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

--Mat 24:30

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:10:57 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 09:00:20 AM »
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
--2 Thess 2:7

This tells us that something is restraining the evil mystery religions [the whore of Babylon, spirit of Satan] and will continue to restrain this evil until it is taken out of the way.

When it is taken out of the way, the Antichrist [described by Daniel] will be revealed with nothing to restrain him.  I see this as a man with the indwelt Satan.  He will be destroyed when Jesus returns.  Satan himself will be locked in the pit for 1000 years.


 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. 

--2 Thess 2:8


This man is further defined as Lucifer.  We are told that there will be a departure [falling away in KJV] before this man of perdition is revealed.  Once that departure happens, there is no longer anything left to restrain him.  I take this to mean the Spirit filled believers are holding back Satan and when they leave at the 'rapture,' they will take the Holy Spirit with them.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

--2 Thess 2



English Bibles before the 1611 King James call the 'falling away' the 'departure.'

So the departure happens first and then the man of sin is revealed who is the Antichist of Daniel's prophecy--because there is nothing left to restrain him.

If this departure is not the rapture, the only other alternative is that the Holy Spirit departs the world and leaves us all bereft with the Antichrist.

Another alternative reading is that the church becomes so heretical that there is no longer any indwelt with the Holy Spirit to restrain the Antichrist, but I just don't believe that could happen.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:07:18 AM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2012, 02:22:27 AM »
It seems to me you don't understand what a quotation of actual words from the Scripture saying what this Rapture doctrine says involves.  You only came up with one sample of actual Bible words saying what has been taught and that involves # 1, "suddenly."  Only look at (the short version of) what we find when we bother to look it up using concordances and Greek reference works. . .

1)The sudden

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15 
In "a moment" (1 Corinthians 1552) in Greek is atomos Strong's #G823.  It means "negative-division" or, "un-cut."

Atomos was used from Plato's day to refer to what we call elements, as are in the table of elements, such as gold, sulfur, hydrogen, carbon, and the like.  This means His coming to be present is in the physical elements that make up our bodies.  "We shall be changed" into incorruptible immortal beings born of God in our physical nature as well as being spiritually regenerated by the Spirit of God.
Illustrating its positive use is (2 Timothy 215), "...rightly dividing the word of truth." 

Here "rightly dividing," (Strong's #G3718,) orthotomeō (Greek:) means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

This aspect of atomos suggests to me He is coming to be present peaceably, with no disruption.  It is a smooth transition, just the next step in the journey.

(The short version of) the next phrase, "In the twinkling of an eye," (1 Corinthians 1552) occurs only here in KJV.  "Twinkling" (Strong's #G4493) rhipē  primarily means "to cast ones view from one place to another," or, "to look into another realm."  It can mean to "to glance."  Thayers indicates the meaning "a moment of time" is not found in ancient Greek authors but is a invention of Bible translators.  The ancient Greeks also use it to mean:  "down, inclination downwards," as of the turning of the scale.  This suggests to me Scripture here refers to an inward sphere of perception.

Finally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of men.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:01:06 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2012, 08:42:17 AM »
The Mahdi [Islam Messiah] is prophesied by the followers of Islam to ride on a white horse when he arrives.  Islam foretells the Mahdi will lead his conquering army into Jerusalem at the end times.

They believe that the rider of the white horse of revelation 6 is describing their Mahdi.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.  Rev 6:2


"a crown"

G4735
στέφανος
stephanos
stef'-an-os
From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.


Although the two riders of the white horse look similar in a superficial reading, the crown on the rider in Rev 6 is different from the crown that the real Messiah, who is also riding a white horse, will wear. 



11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

--Rev 19



[many] "crowns"

G1238
διάδημα
diadēma
dee-ad'-ay-mah
From a compound of G1223 and G1210; a "diadem" (as bound about the head): - crown. Compare G4735.



"diadem"

A jeweled crown or headband worn as a symbol of sovereignty



The Muslim Messiah is wearing the crown of a conqueror, that one might wear as a winner of a battle or of the Olympic games.

Our Lord Jesus is wearing the crown of a King, or more specifically, the crowns of many Kings.




10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev 4



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:11:31 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2012, 09:24:55 AM »
Quote from: Reformer
Finally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.


I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.

We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.

But, also, the trump is the voice of God

and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.

The last trumpet, the command of Jesus,   will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.



« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:30:47 AM by Molly »

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2012, 01:53:22 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
Finally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.


I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.

We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.

But, also, the trump is the voice of God

and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.

The last trumpet, the command of Jesus,   will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

If you look at the original trumpets they were what?  Actual horns on rams.  They were attached to the head.  Like God would come to us and blow His breath into our head.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2012, 03:18:42 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
Finally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.


I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.

We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.

But, also, the trump is the voice of God

and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.

The last trumpet, the command of Jesus,   will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

If you look at the original trumpets they were what?  Actual horns on rams.  They were attached to the head.  Like God would come to us and blow His breath into our head.
Nice thought Red.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »
 :dsunny:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2012, 03:28:16 PM »
Air Are these guys inspired?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2012, 03:31:33 PM »
 :laugh2:   took me a second there   :rocker

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2012, 03:50:19 PM »
Proof that Jesus will come for his bride on Tabernacles?


2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

--John 7

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2012, 02:30:25 AM »
The trumpets for Feast of Tabernacles are not shofar, that is, rams' horns.  They are silver.  In Revelation these are seven succesive trumpets that sound.  The seventh trumpet would be called the last in the series.  The climax occurs in the sound of the seventh angel or trumpet as described by Revelation 107 and 1115 seems the same thing described in 1 Corinthians 1551-53 (focusing on verse 52) where "the last trump" is specified.  From this I have long wondered how those upholding the Rapture doctrine could insist that the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15  is yet another "last" trumpet which many place after the last one in Revelation.  When these two "last" trumpets are drawn to their attention it doesn't seem to alert them to their need for some adjustment anymore than the Biblically non-existent two "2nd" comings they believe in.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 107 KJV)

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 1115 KJV)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 1551-53)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:02:22 PM by reFORMer »
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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2012, 10:31:31 AM »
What is the last trump of 1 Cor 15:52?





In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52)




The question of what exactly is the last trump has puzzled many. Some have concluded that it is the seventh trumpet spoken of in Revelation 8:2, 10:7 and 11:15. Others believe that the last trump is the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. However, these explanations cannot be right for a number of reasons.


First, the last trump of 1Corinthians 15 plainly refers to the Rapture of the body of Christ. If the last trump corresponds to the seventh trumpet of Revelation or the trumpet of Matthew 24:31, then the body of Christ must endure through the majority of the tribulation. However, the body of Christ cannot be subject to the tribulation because God has not appointed the body of Christ to wrath.


For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1Thess 5:9-10)


Second, since the body of Christ is a mystery hid from ages and generations (Col 1:25-27, Romans 16:25-26), its ultimate fulfillment cannot be found in the prophetic program that has been spoken of since the world began (Acts 3:20-21). Moreover, Paul specifically says in the verse immediately prior to the discussion of the last trump that he is referring to a mystery (1Cor 15:51).


Third, for those who believe in a literal interpretation of the scriptures, it cannot be ignored that a "trump" is not the same thing as a "trumpet." The difference is not simply one of spelling but of meaning. While the word "trump" can be a variant of trumpet, it can also be used in an archaic sense to refer to the blast of a trump (Compact Oxford English Dictionary).


It should not be overlooked that scripture uses the word "trump" only twice. Both uses are in Paul's epistles (1Cor 15:52, 1Thess 4:16), and both contexts refer to the catching away of the body of Christ in the air, commonly called the Rapture. Therefore, to understand how the word trump is used in 1Corinthians 15:52, a careful study of the parallel passage in 1Thessalonians 4 is helpful.


1Thessalonians 4:16 indicates that the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1Th 4:16)


When the Lord descends, he brings with him the deceased saints who were saved during the dispensation of grace.


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14)


In 1Thessalonians 4, Paul divides the body of Christ into two categories: (1) saints who are deceased at the time of the Rapture and (2) saints who are alive and remain. It is clear that the first category, those saints who are dead in Christ, shall rise before the second category, those saints who are alive on the earth at the time of the Rapture.


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1Th 4:16)


After the dead in Christ are risen, then the saints who are alive are caught up together with the deceased saints in the clouds.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)


This order of events is entirely consistent with the use of the word "prevent" in 1Thess 4:15.


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)


Paul uses the word "prevent" in its original sense of meaning "to come before." 1Thessalonians 4:15 indicates that those who are alive shall not come before them which are asleep, which is consistent with the passage's indication that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those which are alive and remain.


In short, 1Thessalonians 4 clearly establishes the following order of events:


1. The Lord descends with the trump of God bringing with him those who sleep

2. The dead in Christ rise first

3. Those which are alive and remain are caught up


With this chronology in mind, let us review 1Corinthians 15:52:


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52)


One way to read this verse is that at the time of the last trump, three things occur: (1) the trumpet shall sound, (2) the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and (3) we shall be changed. However, it is clear from 1Thessalonians 4 that these three events do not occur simultaneously. The proper way to read this verse is that it follows and confirms the exact order of events set forth in 1Thessalonians 4:


1Corinthians 15
 1Thessalonians 4
 
the trumpet shall sound
 The Lord descends with the trump of God
 
the dead shall be raised incorruptible
 the dead in Christ shall rise first
 
we shall be changed
 those which are alive and remain are caught up
 


With this understanding of the proper order, 1Corinthians 15:51-52 becomes clear:


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52-52)


When Paul says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," he is plainly referring to the category of saints which are alive and remain. Since it is clear from the order of both 1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4 that the last event to take place is the catching up of those who are alive, it naturally follows that such event would correspond with the "last trump," i.e. the last sounding of the trumpet that begins to blow when Christ descends to Rapture the body of Christ. Thus, the last trump is simply the last sounding of the trumpet that blows when Christ returns for his church.



http://www.columbusbiblechurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52:1-corinthians-1552&catid=37:articles&Itemid=59
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:52:04 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2012, 11:04:04 AM »
The trumpets for Feast of Tabernacles are not shofar, that is, rams' horns.  They are silver.
Trumpets are for calling the leaders/people.
Shofar is about redemption.

Lev 25:9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2012, 04:01:03 PM »
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,

7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

--Isa 62



Watchmen sit on the wall and stare at the horizon.  They just stare and stare and stare,  until they see something on the horizon, and then they announce  to the people what is coming.

The time of Jacob's trouble is still in the future, and will happen before the Lord returns.

The Gentile church will save Israel out of this time.

In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved! Jer 30:7



I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

--Rom 11



12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

--Rom 11



30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

--Rom 11



For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.  Acts 28:20



Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2012, 04:39:23 PM »
By the way, we see the election by grace operating in the Old Testament here:
A remnant is saved by grace:

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11

And, here Paul tells us at the present time there is also a remnant of Jews saved by the election of grace [among them the writers of the NT]:

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11

The national ethnic group is hardened ['a partial hardening'] into unbelief, but at the end of the age, this elect remnant will explode to include the whole nation of Israel:


No longer will each person teach his neighbors or his relatives by saying, 'Know the LORD.' All of them, from the least important to the most important, will know me," declares the LORD, "because I will forgive their wickedness and I will no longer hold their sins against them."  Jer 31:34



As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:28

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 Rom 11

FOR THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 04:54:39 PM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2012, 04:47:23 PM »
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,

7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

--Isa 62



Watchmen sit on the wall and stare at the horizon.  They just stare and stare and stare,  until they see something on the horizon, and then they announce  to the people what is coming.


Being (spiritually) a Watchman is a foundational precursor to being a prophet.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2012, 04:30:09 AM »
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
 
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me  whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12