Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 263959 times)

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Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2012, 05:24:44 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.


The word for Temple in Hebrew is hêykâl and in Greek is hieron.

That word is not in these passages.  It is not talking about a 'Temple.'

It is talking about Jerusalem, the holy city.

It seems to me if the Spirit wanted to talk about the Temple, He would use the word for Temple.


Daniel's prophecy was about the holy city Jerusalem, and "thy holy mountain," which is otherwise known as mount Zion, a name for the temple. The temple, and the city of Jerusalem were both symbolic of the church, and of Christ's kingdom.

Daniel 9:16
O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

In the New Testament the saints have come to both mount Zion (or Sion) and the heavenly Jerusalem

Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

It is obvious that after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, the earthly city was no longer the holy city, to which OT prophecy applied, or else he would not have allowed it to be destroyed by the Romans as happened in 70 AD. Jerusalem was raised up, and established in the top of the mountains, when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, as Isaiah foretold. [Isa. 2:2]

Doug

Creation Concept


Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2012, 09:43:47 AM »

I definitely think the "synagogue of Satan" reference in Rev 2 was, historically, the Jews who were persecuting the ecclesia of Christ. We know Paul was of that synagogue for awhile.


But the biggest problem with this historic modeling of "synagogue of Satan" is Rev 1:10-11 which states these messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered to them all on the same day which is the "day of the Lord", the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. There is no other reference in the Bible to "synagogue of Satan", only in this prophecy.

This "synagogue of Satan" is not even yet in existence because these ecclesias do not yet exist. However, when the 7 ecclesias do come into existence the synagogue of satan will soon follow, you can be sure of that, every jot & tittle of prophecy will be fulfilled, it's how God proves to man that He is the one at the controls of the universe & not Satan or some other created being.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #127 on: August 22, 2012, 03:50:42 PM »
Some very interesting videos here regarding the two wars, Psa 83 and Eze 38/39 [Gog and Magog].   They postulate that Iran will redirect Israel's energies away from itself by causing Israel to fight wars with those states that border it.  That would be the Psa 83 war. The Bible says that Israel will win this war with its bordering enemies and thus expand itself greatly into their territories, creating the state that 'dwells in safety' in the midst of its territory described in Eze 38.  At that point the bigger coalition of states will come against Israel in the Gog and Magog war.  They also postulate that between these two wars, the rapture will take place


IMPORTANT: A Signal To Christians
The judgment to befall Edom will serve as a precursor to the judgment that will come in "the day of the Lord upon all the nations." Zephaniah 2 [Amplified Bible] makes clear that this judgment against Edom, which also extends to the other confederate member nations, is to serve as an example to the other nations but more importantly it is a call to the "meek of the Earth" to get right before "the day of the Lord" and the Rapture of the Church occurs.

Zephaniah 2:3-5
3 Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.

4 For [hear the fate of the Philistines:] Gaza shall be forsaken and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; the people of Ashdod shall be driven out at noonday and Ekron shall be uprooted.

5 Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, the nation of the Cherethites [in Philistia]! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; I will destroy you until no inhabitant is left.


:[it may be] "you will be hidden"

H5641
סתר
aŝthar
saw-thar'
A primitive root; to hide (by covering), literally or figuratively: - be absent, keep close, conceal, hide (self), (keep) secret, X surely.


www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/road/mewar.html
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 03:58:16 PM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #128 on: August 22, 2012, 03:57:57 PM »
I'm hearing some really messed up stuff you're getting from Wikipedia.  One brother who was here pretty often a while back used to go there everyday to straighten out what was written under Universal Salvation, Universal Reconciliation, and the like.  I've found it to be very off sometimes.

I've several times read that the majority of believers escaped when they saw the Roman army initially gathering against Jerusalem.  When the Roman Army withdrew after about 3 1/2 yrs. siege to re-group under Titus, the Jewish Zealots, who were guarding the Christians from escaping the city, took off after the retreating army shouting such things as, "Attack the heathen," "Go forth unto victory," "The Lord goes before us as of old," and, "Destroy the army of the uncircumcised!"  At that time, remembering what Jesus had, the remaining Christians escaped to Petra (a city of as many as 60,000 to 80,000 at the time.)  When Titus and his soldiers came into the city he found no Christians there. 

This account I believe is attributable to Josephus, (who was there, and) who is surely online.  I'm certain the commentaries of John Gill are online having visited them.  Gill was in the 1700's and before the dipsinsationalists infestation.  Possibly Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Delitzsch are also online.  They're ubiquitous in Bible software probably in the public domain.  Delitzsch is one of the greatest Hebraists the church has ever known.  His writings are also before that "form of doctrine" was popular.  May of my links to other helpful sources are not available to me at this time.  To get knowledge from these aforementioned sources is more difficult but also more trustworthy.  The older scholars were more careful not to bring derision upon themselves for outlandish distortion of known facts as Wikipedia seems keen to do.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 04:02:50 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2012, 04:15:02 PM »
Yeah, Keil and Delitz is great. http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/22_historical_books.htm (also esword modules IIRC)
Anchor Bible Commentary is good too.
Gill here

Josephus here
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2012, 04:31:17 PM »
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?

The Jews ['those in Judea'] are told to flee.  The Christians are told to start looking up, because your redemption is nigh.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2012, 05:20:50 PM »
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?

The Jews ['those in Judea'] are told to flee.  The Christians are told to start looking up, because your redemption is nigh.
This is one of the peculiarities of opinion which is crucial to dipsinsationalists:  the rebuilding of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, the partition that was torn down in Jesus death making one new man.  The distinction between Jew and Gentile (male and female, bond and free, etc.) is no longer a way to perceive those inheriting the kingdom.  These are no longer valid categories for us.

In the days of the destruction of Jerusalem, if the Christians did not know what prophecies pertained to their time they died.  I'm concerned the same culminating severity is at hand in our time.  I hear so many rattling on about persons, things, issues, and such that are in the same dimension our fleshy skin suit occupies.  Their mind is on carnal things.  They aren't searching for what can build up their character to be more aligned with Christ's personality.  At best, their enthusiasm is for the Party going on in the outer court, while our attention should be on the increasing Glory of His Presence.  This is the perception that the Holy Spirit uses to transform us into the same image.

(Hebrews 96-9 Concordant Literal...)
6 Now these having been constructed thus, the priests, indeed, are passing continually into the front tabernacle, performing the divine service;
7 yet into the second, the chief priest only, once a year, not apart from blood, which he is offering for himself and the errors of the people,
8 by this the holy spirit making it evident that the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing:
9 which is a parable for the present period,

This from vs. 8 in what I want you to notice:  "...the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing."  The word "standing" here can mean, "a popular uprising, a boisterous party."  "The front tent" refers to what has a roof covering, not the outer court.  This front tabernacle is full of the activity and works of men.  In the feasts it represents Pentecost, while The outer court corresponds to Passover.  The Holiest is Tabernacles.  When your stomach is filled with the loaves of Pentecost you aren't hungry for Tabernacles' supper.  Here it says when all the attention is on the noise and activity in the Holy Place, the way into the Holy of Holies is not made manifest.

Yet this is the very thing that is at hand prophetically.  The Barley Harvest is first of what is next on the prophetic calendar.  Harvest means to be gathered into God.  We are going to be born of the resurrection in this Tabernacles Feast.  When the last members of the body, the feet, are born, the whole body will walk into the Holy of Holies.

To not know what is going on, where we now are prophetically, can endanger your life.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 04:01:12 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2012, 05:33:29 PM »
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?
There is a way to disprove it was written for that age. But still very problematic.....

Last week suddenly a a thought about 3.5 years popped into my head. 1260 days and 1290 days. How can they both be 3.5 years?
God is bad at math? It occured to me it's more like God being good at timekeeping (calendar)
Jews used a 12 month lunar calendar and inserted a leap month one in a while.
A leap year is referred to in Hebrew as Shanah Me'uberet, or a pregnant year. A Jewish leap year occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle. The 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years are leap years in this cycle.
The leap month was inserted just befor Nisan the Passover month. During Jesus time it was totally based on the state op the crops not on the formula shown above. It's accurate but drifts a little. All those warnings set aside....
I think the 1260 and 1290 are a reference to a leap month.
Meaning the "Tribulation" must be synced to that 19 year cycle. I did a quick check and it's very clear not just any  years fit.
I also think it's synced to a Sabbath cycle. When both align the possible years are narrowed down a lot.
If the possible years do no align with the years before the destruction of the the Temple it's not about that time.
I have done just a few checks. I pinpointed the Sabbath cycle quite accurately but not the 19 year cycle (or the 3 year Torah reading cycle)
Seems something Doug might have already done...
Seems like a nice study ahead. Days with 4 hours sleep and forgetting to eat all day. Those were the times... :-)
3, 7 and 19 year cycles... sounds like very reaonble approach to gain extra support for either view (past, future or both)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2012, 05:35:40 PM »
I've several times read that the majority of believers escaped when they saw the Roman army initially gathering against Jerusalem.  When the Roman Army withdrew after about 3 1/2 yrs. siege to re-group under Titus, the Jewish Zealots, who were guarding the Christians from escaping the city, took off after the retreating army shouting such things as, "Attack the heathen," "Go forth unto victory," "The Lord goes before us as of old," and, "Destroy the army of the uncircumcised!"  At that time, remembering what Jesus had, the remaining Christians escaped to Petra (a city of as many as 60,000 to 80,000 at the time.)  When Titus and his soldiers came into the city he found no Christians there.
That sounds like the Christians were 'raptured'..... :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2012, 06:00:10 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
This is one of the peculiarities of opinion which is crucial to dipsinsationalists:  the rebuilding of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, the partition that was torn down in Jesus death making one new man.  The distinction between Jew and Gentile (male and female, bond and free, etc.) is no longer a way to perceive those inheriting the kingdom.  These are no longer valid categories for us

Just to review:  Paul tells us that the Jews have been partially blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and then their eyes will be opened.  Lots of prophecy tells us the same from the OT, as well.   I've been trying to point that out.  If we are really at the end of the age, this will be the time the Jews will start coming into Christ.  But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet.   There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days.  It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2012, 06:10:18 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
This from vs. 8 in what I want you to notice:  "...the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing."  The word "standing" here can mean, "a popular uprising, a boisterous party."  "The front tent" refers to what has a roof covering, not the outer court.  This front tabernacle is full of the activity and works of men.  In the feasts it represents Pentecost, while The outer court corresponds to Passover.  The Holiest is Tabernacles.  When your stomach is filled with the loaves of Pentecost you aren't hungry for Tabernacles' supper.  Here it says when all the attention is on the noise and activity in the Holy Place, the way into the Holy of Holies is not made manifest.

Yet this is the very thing that is at hand prophetically.  The Barley Harvest is first of what is next on the prophetic calendar.  Harvest means to be gathered into God.  We are going to be born of the resurrection in this Tabernacles Feast.  When the last members of the body, the feet, are born, the whole body will walk into the Holy of Holies.

I'll definitely think about this.  Thanks!

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #136 on: August 22, 2012, 11:02:44 PM »
But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet.   There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days.  It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.

Spot on Molly. Every Bible topic of a prophetic nature deals only with how other nations interact with Israel. There are no specific prophecies concerning how the United States deals with Russia, or how England deals with China, only chains of events concerning how those countries are engaged with Israel in years leading up to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy  & on into the 7 years of the 70th week.

Presently as I look at the Middle East, I do not see enough chains of events that indicate we are right on the cusp of the start of the 70th week. Maybe if Syria falls soon, then the pace of things may pick up if the Jews in Israel take out Iran's nuclear production facilities. If Iran comes under attack by Israel, you can be sure that will be the end of Assad & that regime because they are just basically Iranian surrogates.   I think that once certain fundamentalist Islamic forces in Syria & Iran are neutralized, then the way could be paved for construction of the Jewish Temple & the 7 synagogues in Turkey, but first the threats of Islamic fundamentalism must be removed, & those threats are mostly stemming from Shiite fundamentalism out of Iran.

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2012, 12:46:26 AM »
But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet.   There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days.  It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.

Spot on Molly. Every Bible topic of a prophetic nature deals only with how other nations interact with Israel. There are no specific prophecies concerning how the United States deals with Russia, or how England deals with China, only chains of events concerning how those countries are engaged with Israel in years leading up to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy  & on into the 7 years of the 70th week.

Presently as I look at the Middle East, I do not see enough chains of events that indicate we are right on the cusp of the start of the 70th week. Maybe if Syria falls soon, then the pace of things may pick up if the Jews in Israel take out Iran's nuclear production facilities. If Iran comes under attack by Israel, you can be sure that will be the end of Assad & that regime because they are just basically Iranian surrogates.   I think that once certain fundamentalist Islamic forces in Syria & Iran are neutralized, then the way could be paved for construction of the Jewish Temple & the 7 synagogues in Turkey, but first the threats of Islamic fundamentalism must be removed, & those threats are mostly stemming from Shiite fundamentalism out of Iran.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 were about the duration of the desolation of the city of Jerusalem, and the mountain of the Lord's house. But Isaiah said, the mountain of the Lord's house would be established in the top of the mountains. [Isa. 2:2] When Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, after his resurrection, this was fulfilled. What mountain is higher than God's throne? He was "exulted above the hills." He was "the only begotten Son" of the Father. [John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb. 11:17; 1 John 4:9]

Peter said, on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was given,

Acts 2:32-36
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Being "made Christ" meant he had inherited the throne of his ancestor David, and was ruling over all Israel in Jerusalem. This is how Jerusalem was exulted above the hills, and established in the top of the mountains. But those Jews who rejected the gospel, were cut off from Israel. They were no longer Israel, in a spiritual sense, but were branches broken off from their tree. This was how Paul explained it in Romans 11. And the apostle Peter said,

Acts 3:22-24
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

By these teachings, the earthly Jerusalem and the Jews of that generation who did not believe the gospel received a deadly wound. The "sword" in scripture is scripture itself, as we read in Hebrews:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The ministry of the apostles continued to spread this word, and so the unbelieving part of the Jewish nation was cut off from the promises of God. In the events of 70 A.D. there was no divine protection for them. There were armies surrounding Jerusalem, a condition which to them probably seemed very much what was foretold in Zechariah 14:1-2, but the promise in verse 3, "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" did not come to pass; neither did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and half of it move north and half move south; and neither did any plague smite the attackers, or their horses, or mules, or camels, or asses, in those days, as far as we know. The Jews were bitterly disappointed. To this day, those Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ have been cut off from the promises, and from Israel. Thus, they received a "deadly wound" from the sword of God's word. But John said, in Rev. 13, that one of the heads of the beast, in which there were the names of blasphemy, that had received a deadly wound, would be healed. Is this what happened in 1948?

Let's remember, the "beast" with 7 heads and 10 horns in ch. 13 has the characteristics of the four beasts in Daniel 7, and the same number of heads and horns. The kingdom of Herod was a Roman province. It was incorporated in the fourth beast of Dan. 7. Jesus acknowledged this, when the Jews questioned him about paying tribute.

Luke 20:21-26
And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

So, even though a Jewish state has emerged, which calls itself "Israel," let's not be deceived. Paul wrote:

Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
The "children of the promise" are the true Israel, not the children of the flesh. The saints are the Israel of God by faith, not by the flesh, or because of physical circumcision, but by the circumcision made without hands.

Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doug

Creation Concept
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:31:14 AM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2012, 03:15:30 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The ministry of the apostles continued to spread this word, and so the unbelieving part of the Jewish nation was cut off from the promises of God. In the events of 70 A.D. there was no divine protection for them. There were armies surrounding Jerusalem, a condition which to them probably seemed very much what was foretold in Zechariah 14:1-2, but the promise in verse 3, "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" did not come to pass; neither did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and half of it move north and half move south; and neither did any plague smite the attackers, or their horses, or mules, or camels, or asses, in those days, as far as we know. The Jews were bitterly disappointed. To this day, those Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ have been cut off from the promises, and from Israel. Thus, they received a "deadly wound" from the sword of God's word. But John said, in Rev. 13, that one of the heads of the beast, in which there were the names of blasphemy, that had received a deadly wound, would be healed. Is this what happened in 1948?

So we agree that the Jews received no divine protection in 70 ad, and thus none of these prophecies about the Jews being saved by God from their enemies and being great warriors themselves apply to 70 ad.  Neither did Jesus show up to defend them or protect them.  70 ad was a rout and a bust.

Jesus had said to them 40 years earlier:  I leave your house desolate...


But the Jews do not qualify either for the beast kingdom that was wounded and came alive.  First, they were not a kingdom then and are not a kingdom now in the sense of Assyria, Babylon, Greek, or Roman.  Neither  are they a system in the sense of Babylon.  They may be part of a beast kingdom or system, but they are not one themselves.  Right now they are a little country about the size of New Jersey.

I think the Muslim Caliphate is the best candidate for the beast who receives a deadly wound--1928 --  and which comes back to life--hasn't happened yet, but looks like it is close to happening.

As for the Jews, Paul twists himself into a pretzel in Rom 11 to show us that all [the elect] of Israel will be saved, and that includes the endtime Jews.


Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2012, 04:06:40 AM »
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes

10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm

Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/


Psalm 83?

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2012, 05:46:44 AM »

Last week suddenly a a thought about 3.5 years popped into my head. 1260 days and 1290 days. How can they both be 3.5 years?
God is bad at math? It occured to me it's more like God being good at timekeeping (calendar)
Jews used a 12 month lunar calendar and inserted a leap month one in a while.
A leap year is referred to in Hebrew as Shanah Me'uberet, or a pregnant year. A Jewish leap year occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle. The 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years are leap years in this cycle.
The leap month was inserted just befor Nisan the Passover month. During Jesus time it was totally based on the state op the crops not on the formula shown above. It's accurate but drifts a little. All those warnings set aside....
I think the 1260 and 1290 are a reference to a leap month.
Meaning the "Tribulation" must be synced to that 19 year cycle. I did a quick check and it's very clear not just any  years fit.


The 1,290 days are mentioned together with 1,335 days, and they are related to the "time, times and a half" mentioned in the same chapter.

Daniel 12:4-7
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The swearing person here who stands on the water is thought by some scholars to be Christ, who walked on water in view of the disciples. There are only a few examples in scripture of a divine being or an angel swearing. The most prominent by far is the promise God made to Abraham, that his seed would possess the land of Canaan, in Genesis 15:17-18. There are references to it in Genesis 24:7; 26:1-4; 50:24; Exodus 13:5; 32:13; 33:1; Numbers 11:12; 14:16, 23, 30; 32:11; Deuteronomy 1:8, 35; 4:31; 6:10, 18, 23; 7:13; 8:1, 18; 10:11; 11:9; 26:3, 15; 28:11; 30:20; 31:20-21, 23, and many more in Joshua, and other scriptures. In the New Testament this promise is referred to in Luke 1:73, "The oath which he sware to our father Abraham," and Hebrews 6:13.

Another example of God swearing is when he refused to allow the faithless Israelites to enter the promised land, of whom it is said, "Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest." [Psalm 95:11]

Another example is God's covenant with Israel, in Ezekiel 16:8, "Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine."

Another is the promise to David.

Psalm 89:49
Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

These are all most significant components of the gospel, and the swearing described in Daniel 12:7 is equally so. It is the promise that all the things included in Daniel's prophecies are to be finished, within the "time, times and a half."

We find another account with many similarities to the account of the swearing person in Daniel's prophecy, in Revelation 10. The two swearing figures are compared in the table below.


   Daniel 10:5-6; 12:7   Revelation 10:1-7
his clothinga man clothed in linenan angel clothed with a cloud
his facehis face as the appearance of lightninghis face was as it were the sun
his feethis arms and his feet like in colour to polished brasshis feet as pillars of fire
he stood upon the waterupon the waters of the riverhis right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
his hands
he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heavenhe lifted up his hand to heaven
swearinghe swore by him that liveth for everhe swore by him that liveth for ever and ever
the time of the fulfilment of prophecy endsit shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets


The idea that the "time, times and a half" is a literal three and a half years does not appear to fit the emphasis that is given to this time period in prophecy; it must have far greater significance than that. And the numbers associated with it, as I pointed out earlier, do not fit a literal three years and a half. Suggesting that God was poor at math is impious. And Daniel was put over all the wise men of Babylon. In his time the knowledge of the calendar and of the astronomical periods was quite advanced. They discovered the 235 month cycle. Here is what James Evans wrote about its significance: [James Evans. History and practice of ancient astronomy. Oxford University Press, 1998. p. 185.]

The tropical year is longer than twelve synodic months by 0.3693 month. We search for an integer n such that n 0.3683 is a whole number. A very satisfactory solution is n = 19.

19 0.3683 = 6.9977, which is very nearly 7.

Thus, we may construct a nineteen-year luni-solar cycle. In nineteen calendar years, we insert seven additional months. Of the nineteen years, twelve will consist of twelve months and seven will consist of thirteen months.

Nineteen-year cycle

12 years of 12 months = 144 months
7 years of 13 months = 91 months
so, 19 calendar years = 235 months

The average length of the calendar year in this system is 235 months/19 = 12.3684 months, which agrees very well with the length of the solar years (12.3683 months)

Nineteen tropical years therefore contain 235 synodic months, almost exactly. The astronomical meaning of this statement is that after nineteen tropical years, both the Sun and the Moon return to the same positions on the ecliptic. The sun returns to the same longitude after any interval containing a whole number of tropical years. The special feature of the nineteen-year period is that it also contains a whole number of synodic months. Thus, the Moon will be in the same phase on two dates that are nineteen years apart.

The explanation of the eight-and nineteen-year cycles given above is not meant to reflect the actual process of discovery: the ancient Greeks and Babylonians did not begin with a knowledge of the lengths of the year and the month. Rather, a knowledge of these cycles emerged after several generations of keeping track of the Moon.


Evans said that in Babylon, "There is some evidence that an eight-year cycle was used for the brief period from 529 to 503 B.C. From 499, the nineteen-year cycle was probably in use (seven intercalary months inserted every nineteen years)." The period he refers to was some decades after the time of Daniel. So Daniel would probably have been aware of the advances in the knowledge of the calendar and lunar solar cycles.

The number 1,335 days in Daniel 12:12 incorporates ideal months of 30 days, not natural months. The number corresponds to three and a half years where one year has 12 months, and the rest 13. The number 1,290 days in Daniel 12:11 corresponds to three and a half years where one year has 13 months, and the rest 12. So they both represent unnatural time periods, or in other words symbolic periods of three and a half years, or a time, times and a half. This is also true of the 42 months and 1,260 days in Revelation. There is a sequence of progressively smaller numbers, as the time, times and a half is a diminishing period, and represents the whole age of the church, that eventually comes to an end, which is when all that was revealed to the prophets comes to pass.

Doug

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Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2012, 06:01:26 PM »
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes

10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm

Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/


Psalm 83?

I've heard many a speculation that Ps 83 is a reference to the future of the endtime. I've never really studied the reasoning for it carefully enough to give it any credence. What I've seen is that some teachers use Ps 83 to identify ten countries that are the ten horns of the endtime beast, & when I see that I just merrily move along my way, after all the ten horns of the beast will rule the entire world not just a sliver of land in the Middle East. Sure the geographical location is about right, but how do you know this Psalm is simply not a reminiscing of David's previous struggles during the time he was consolidating the kingdom?

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2012, 10:44:17 PM »
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes

10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm

Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/


Psalm 83?

I've heard many a speculation that Ps 83 is a reference to the future of the endtime. I've never really studied the reasoning for it carefully enough to give it any credence. What I've seen is that some teachers use Ps 83 to identify ten countries that are the ten horns of the endtime beast, & when I see that I just merrily move along my way, after all the ten horns of the beast will rule the entire world not just a sliver of land in the Middle East. Sure the geographical location is about right, but how do you know this Psalm is simply not a reminiscing of David's previous struggles during the time he was consolidating the kingdom?
I'm just trying to fit together all the pieces of the big jigsaw puzzle that is end time prophecy.    There are many pieces scattered throughout the Bible, OT and NT, and they all have to fit together and be accounted for.   When I started looking at this, I realized that many prophecy experts had overlooked the elephant in the room, Islam.

I also realized that end time prophecy is all about Jerusalem, the  country of Israel, and the Jews.  We return to the place that God has picked as his capital city of the world, and that is where all the action will be.

I wish I could just list all the pieces of prophecy on cards and then try to order them.   Doing it in my head is not so easy.   If you find something that contradicts other scripture, or is contradicted by current events, you have to readjust your thesis.  But, so far the two things mentioned above are accounting for all the prophecy I can keep in my head at one time.

If you are on the right track, you can begin to predict the future.  Imagine that!

Just a few days ago, I said that Iran would try to use the countries that border Israel to fight a proxy war and thus take the heat off themselves.  I saw this a few days ago as making absolute sense in terms of good war strategy.  It is what I would do if I were the generals in charge.  But, this came out of wondering how Psa 83 could happen before Eze 38, and why.  It came out of knowing the prophecy.

So then here we have this article saying just that--Iran is training Hezbollah to fight a proxy war with Israel and take the heat off itself.  If Israel is busy messing with enemies on its border, it won't have much time to wage war with a more distant enemy.

Also, you, Paul, said something that helped me a lot.  You said Israel would expand her borders as a result of war.  This also helped me see why Psa 83 war would happen first, because at the time of Eze 38 war, Israel is dwelling in safety within her [expanded] borders.

Even though we know the beast system is Satan's system which tries to copy and mock everything God says He will do, I do believe that in the final battles, the beast system will be represented by Islam.  Just take a look at a map.  Israel sits alone in a sea of Muslim countries which are getting more radical by the day.  The 'entire world,' you say.  The 'entire world' for end time prophecy is the Middle East.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:51:27 PM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #143 on: August 25, 2012, 10:28:46 AM »
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes

   You said Israel would expand her borders as a result of war.  This also helped me see why Psa 83 war would happen first, because at the time of Eze 38 war, Israel is dwelling in safety within her [expanded] borders.

Molly, since my last post, I've more carefully read Ps 83, & I know there are those who embrace the concept that the Psalms are prophetic, but I'm just not seeing it, maybe prophetic in the sense of a nation dwelling safely inside its' borders during the Millenium with its Temple & their Messiah sitting in it.

If Ps 83 is a prophetic message of our time, the peoples spoken of do seem to be those around Israel's borders whom the Jews must subjugate in order to create a security zone to make Israel safe from rocket attacks. Don't forget Israel already has a piece of Syria within its' security zone, the Golan Heights & I think will soon take a bigger chunk of that country as well as the entirety of Lebanon. The biggest mystery to me is yet to happen in Turkey, somehow that country will be turned inside out & pulled away from Islam for those 7 ecclesias (Jewish synagogues)  to come into existence.

Three key things I look for in the Middle east as guideposts to how close we are to the opening of the 70yh week: 1- Building of the Temple in Jerusalem  2- The site of ancient Babylon as the world's foremost center of commerce  3- The establishment of the 7 ecclesias.  To date none of these three things are imminent, therefore I do not expect to see the start of the 70th week in my lifetime, I believe it is many decades away.

Islam will be a major player just as you suggest, right now Iran is the big bully in Middle eastern affairs & may very well be the source of the rockets that level Babylon in the middle of the 70th week. But between now & the start of the 70th week a lot of jockeying for position will be going on and it's how the demise of Islamic nation of Turkey occurs that has my keenest interest.
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #144 on: August 26, 2012, 12:58:27 AM »
Notes on the salvation of all Israel--Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

--rom 11



four questions about "all Israel will be saved"

Who is 'Israel'?

What does 'all' mean?

When are they saved?

How are they saved?



Who is Israel in this passage?

Ans. Ethnic Jews

A 'mystery"-- partial hardening has come upon [ethnic, Jewish] Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

rom 9--Israel doesn't just mean ethnic Israel alone. Israel of the flesh vs Israel of the promise [spirit]--two Israels

After the gentiles are brought in, we have the climax of the covenant when all of ethnic Israel will be brought into the covenant at the end of the age, that is the Jews who have been hardened until the appointed time..

Paul makes a distinction between Israel of the flesh that rejected Jesus --stumbled, transgressed, cast away and hardened, disobedient, in unbelief--Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here-versus Israel of the spirit, the elect church of Jews and Gentiles.

Israel of the flesh will be saved at the end time after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul calls them enemies of the gospel and beloved because of the fathers--"Jacob"--upon whom the gifts of God are irrevocable. This is not about the church.

Ans. the Israel being saved in verse 26 is ethnic Israel.



What does all mean?



ans. Every Jew who survives the tribulation of Jacob's trouble at the end of the age, at the moment they see Jesus.

Paul calls this life from the dead.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness [their full inclusion]?

--Rom 11


15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

--Rom 11



Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

--Isa 54



21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Isa 59

13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.  Psa 102



34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31



37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

--Jer 32




When are they saved?

Ans: at the time of Jacob's trouble

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.  Jer 30

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  Dan 12

2/3 of Jews will perish during the time of Jacob's trouble--

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

--Zech 13




How are they saved?

.

By grace, by faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit, when ethnic Jews look upon Jesus whom they have pierced and mourn for him. The revelation that they have pierced their Messiah moves them to mourn collectively on one day.

God is going to Judge the nations that come against Israel and save Israel



3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning  Isa 4

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.  Zech 12:10


22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.  Isa 60


Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.  Isa 66
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 01:55:30 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #145 on: August 26, 2012, 02:27:27 AM »
Notes on the salvation of all Israel--Rom 11
-

Who is Israel in this passage?

Ans. Ethnic Jews

A 'mystery"-- partial hardening has come upon [ethnic, Jewish] Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Paul makes a distinction between Israel of the flesh that rejected Jesus --stumbled, transgressed, cast away and hardened, disobedient, in unbelief--Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here-versus Israel of the spirit, the elect church of Jews and Gentiles.

Israel of the flesh will be saved at the end time after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul calls them enemies of the gospel and beloved because of the fathers--"Jacob"--upon whom the gifts of God are irrevocable. This is not about the church.

What does all mean?
ans. Every Jew who survives the tribulation of Jacob's trouble at the end of the age, at the moment they see Jesus.


7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.


22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.  Isa 60

Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.  Isa 66

 :2thumbs:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #146 on: August 26, 2012, 03:12:00 AM »
wow..you agree, Jab?  It's beautiful, isn't it?

Even more beautiful if you could only agree that the Gentile church is the lost tribes of Israel, for the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile.  The children of the promise are the Gentiles, and always were.  And, so, ALL Israel will be saved.   :dsunny:

But, I can wait. :coffee2:


And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.  Rom 4:11

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #147 on: August 26, 2012, 06:13:17 AM »
...

Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

--Isa 54


This chapter of Isaiah begins with a verse that Paul quotes in his epistle to the Galatians and applies to the church.

Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Galatians 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

In the above verse, Sarah was the one who was barren, and she is the one who represents the church while Hagar and her offspring represent the earthly Jerusalem, and the Jews, who Paul said were in bondage. Isaiah 54 applies to the church, so if one accepts the authority of Paul, the idea that anything in the chapter refers to ethnic Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ seems spurious.

And, I noticed that you omit verses 11 & 12 in your quote above.

Isa. 54:11-12
O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Hmm..

The only foundation this can be referring to is that of the church, the holy city.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

At least one of the stones named in the verses is the same as those John described in foundations of the holy city, which represents the church.

Rev 21:19-21
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl:

Many other prophecies of Isaiah apply to the church, under the figures of Israel, Jerusalem and Zion. From the point of view of scripture, the name "Israel" belongs, not to ethnic Jews and emigrants from Russia to the Jewish state in Palestine, but to the church. Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews," and Paul explained that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]

The reason is that when Jesus ascended to heaven, after his resurrection, Jerusalem and mount Zion were also raised up, which fulfilled Isa. 2:1-2, and Zech. 14:10. These prophecies were not about literal tectonic movements that elevate the earthly Jerusalem, but they describe spiritual concepts; Jerusalem is the city of the great King, Jesus, and those "in Christ" are raised up with him, hence they are included in the holy city, and "the mountain of the Lord's house." 

Doug

Creation Concept

Offline thinktank

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #148 on: August 26, 2012, 08:00:18 AM »
This is a great place to hang out to learn about Israel and Judaism, many educated, faith and smart people here.

I have high hopes for Israel and their future, it will be great to see God move like in the old times, bringing unusual miracles.
I just read about Samson's adventures, I had no idea that the had super combat skills to slay thousands of men and also drank water out of a skull.

Super!


Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #149 on: August 26, 2012, 11:24:18 AM »
...

Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

--Isa 54


This chapter of Isaiah begins with a verse that Paul quotes in his epistle to the Galatians and applies to the church.

Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Galatians 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

In the above verse, Sarah was the one who was barren, and she is the one who represents the church while Hagar and her offspring represent the earthly Jerusalem, and the Jews, who Paul said were in bondage. Isaiah 54 applies to the church, so if one accepts the authority of Paul, the idea that anything in the chapter refers to ethnic Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ seems spurious.

And, I noticed that you omit verses 11 & 12 in your quote above.

Isa. 54:11-12
O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Hmm..

The only foundation this can be referring to is that of the church, the holy city.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

At least one of the stones named in the verses is the same as those John described in foundations of the holy city, which represents the church.

Rev 21:19-21
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl:

Many other prophecies of Isaiah apply to the church, under the figures of Israel, Jerusalem and Zion. From the point of view of scripture, the name "Israel" belongs, not to ethnic Jews and emigrants from Russia to the Jewish state in Palestine, but to the church. Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews," and Paul explained that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]

The reason is that when Jesus ascended to heaven, after his resurrection, Jerusalem and mount Zion were also raised up, which fulfilled Isa. 2:1-2, and Zech. 14:10. These prophecies were not about literal tectonic movements that elevate the earthly Jerusalem, but they describe spiritual concepts; Jerusalem is the city of the great King, Jesus, and those "in Christ" are raised up with him, hence they are included in the holy city, and "the mountain of the Lord's house." 

Doug

Creation Concept



Isaiah 54 is prophesying about either the house of Israel [northern ten tribes] or the house of Judah [southern two tribes, 'Jews'] because that is to whom the New Covenant was made.  The house of Israel was divorced by God and lost to history some 800 years before Jesus was born.  The house of Judah was not divorced, but exiled and brought back by God, and then left desolate by Jesus UNTIL...

Which house is Isaiah 54 talking about?   I think both.


It starts by telling the barren woman without a husband to sing because she will have more children than the married woman.

This barren woman doesn't have a husband.  This is not talking about Sarah.  Sarah was the married woman.  This woman is not married.  Yet she will have more children than the married woman.

"Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband, "
says the Lord.

This is talking about the house of Israel [northern ten tribes],and, as you know I believe, of Christian church with its two billion members.   She was divorced and barren and lost, yet she will sing because she will have more children than the married woman [house of Judah].

Then in verse 4 the subject changes to a woman who is married and widowed  [not divorced], a deserted  wife, a rejected young wife, who will be called back by her husband, the Holy One of Israel.   She was abandoned for a brief moment and He hid His face from her yet, he will have compassion on her and bring her back.  This sounds like the house of Judah.

Then in verse 11, he goes on to talk about an afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted.  He will rebuild her with beautiful stones and the children of this city will be taught by the LORD, and peace and righteousness established in her forever.  This is talking about the city of Jerusalem.

I could say more, but I'll leave it here for now.

I will say this, though, somewhere in Isaiah 54 is a love letter to every one of us.