Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Book of Revelation

Prophecy

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jabcat:

--- Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:09:21 PM ---
 IMO, in this age, there are only one kind of saints. Everyone who believes is "in Christ", Jew and Gentile.

The dividing wall is removed in Christ. The wild olive branches are grafted into ONE olive tree in Christ.


--- End quote ---

I agree with that.


--- Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:09:21 PM ---IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.

--- End quote ---

I'm not one who "breaks up the body of Christ".  As you say, one Lord, one baptism, and I'll add "one way to the Father".  I am one though that although not always very good at doing it, believes in being careful with the scriptures in terms of who was the primary audience when the Word was spoken, and then how is that intended for us today;  i.e., is it a primary application, or more so "spiritual application/examples for our learning"... saying it poorly, but I think you know what I'm getting at.   :2c:  I don't really think that's what you're alluding to in your post, but it made me think of it.  (There's probably more to "dispensationalism" than that..)

Doug:

--- Quote from: Paul L on November 25, 2012, 08:01:25 PM ---

--- Quote ---IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.
--- End quote ---

Fair point.....but square this with Dan 9:24. Are all of us Daniel's people then? You want to break up "dispensational theories", so who are Daniel's people here upon whom the 70 weeks are conferred? Body of Christ saints? Israelite saints?

--- End quote ---

In his prayer in chapter 9 Daniel says, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us." [vs. 16]

He mentions Jerusalem, thy holy mountain, our fathers, and "thy people" and elsewhere in ch. 7 he refers to "the saints." I will focus here on "thy holy mountain." In Isaiah 2:2, the mountain of the Lord's house is to be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills, and all nations flow to it. I suggest Jesus represented the holy mountain. He is also referred to as the "foundation" laid in Zion, Isaiah 28:16, and precious corner stone, the stone that the builders rejected, etc. In Daniel 2:35-45 Jesus is represented by a stone cut without hands, that smashes the image on its feet, and destroys it. The stone grows into a mountain that fills the earth. The "holy mountain" is clearly a metaphor and a symbol of Christ and his kingdom, the church, as the legs and feet of the image represent the Roman Empire.

Isaiah 2:2, which is a prophecy concerning mount Zion and Jerusalem, shows the continuity of OT Jerusalem, and the church, the heavenly Jerusalem. When Jesus ascended to heaven, Isaiah 2:2 was fulfilled, and Jerusalem became a heavenly city. Paul said that believers are raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Eph. 2:6. The city of Jerusalem is in heaven, Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22, Rev. 21:10ff.

Daniel's people, then are the saints of both the Old and New Testaments. The prophets are the foundation of the church, together with the apostles, Eph. 2:20.

Dispensationalism fails to recognize that Isaiah 2:2 applies to Christ and his church, and that this prophecy was fulfilled. The dispensationalists have a mantra of literalism, and appeal to literalism to support their claim that the church is not found in Old Testament prophecy, but this "literal" approach is quickly abandoned, whenever there is a chance to exult the Jews in an earthly kingdom where they are doted on by Gentiles, as suggested in their interpretation of Isaiah 2:2.

The literal approach says that mount Zion is exulted tectonically, and becomes the highest mountain in the world. A tectonic uplift of Jerusalem is also depicted in Zechariah 14:10 if this is taken literally. But of course such ideas are absurd. And consider John's message, "every mountain and hill shall be made low." The prophecies contradict. One says mount Zion is to be the highest mountain in the world, the other says every mountain will be made low. The dilemma is resolved when the mountains are interpreted as symbols of God's promises, as we see in Genesis 49:26. Jacob said his blessings extended "to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The association of his blessings with mountains, and everlasting ones, alludes to their lofty spiritual nature, and their eternal duration. Thus, mountains are symbols of the promises of the Gospel.

One of the foremost of these promises is the coming of a Savior, so Christ is represented by a mountain. He is the foundation laid in Zion, the precious corner stone. So mount Zion is the name of the mountain which represents Christ. Was this mountain made low? When Jesus was crucified and buried, he was indeed "made low." But afterwards, when he was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, he was established in the top of the mountains, in the throne of his Father, and made Lord of all, and was given the eternal throne of David which he was to receive, as king of his saints in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Now, in the New Testament, the church is represented by Jerusalem, the heavenly city, and Jerusalem was raised up when Christ ascended to heaven. So the "saints" of Daniel's prophecies are the people of Israel, up until the time of Pentecost, when Jesus was "made Christ." Then the apostles preached the good news to the Jews, and Peter cited the law of Moses, about a prophet who was to come, and said:

Acts 3:19-24
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Verse 23 says those Jews who do not believe the Gospel are "destroyed from among the people," and so are no longer Jews, or Israel, but as Paul said, in Romans 9:6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." They are cut off from the promises, which are obtained only through Christ.

Isaiah 2:2 is a key scripture which shows the continuity of OT Israel and the Christian church. The dispensationalists are blind to it; their theory is a man made doctrine, destroyed by the prophecy of Isaiah, itself a "mountain." As Ezekiel said, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel." [Ezek. 39:4] These mountains are symbols of promises, and blessings, and prophecies of God's word.

Doug


Molly:
Daniel's timeline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czHNJHmkgr0



I highly recommend this two hour video.  He's done an incredible job of piecing things together, and gives the dates for the start of the Great Tribulation [last 3.5 years] and the return of Jesus.

I am in pretty much total agreement with his timeline and his rationale for it.




And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

--Luke 21:28

Molly:
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus

September 29, 2012 By daltonthomas Leave a Comment


[Source] The Book of Revelation, chapter 19, contains what is perhaps the most famous Biblical passage concerning the return of Jesus. There, Jesus the Messiah is seen to burst forth from heaven, riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven following Him. But as powerful and well known as this prophetic portrayal of the return of Jesus is, few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
 
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
 
That's right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
 

"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
 
According to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will "quake at [His] presence." The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel (see also: Zechariah 14:2-5, Isaiah 29:2-8, Revelation 16:16-20).
 
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
 

"So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered'" —Genesis 32:30
 
It is also interesting to note that in place of the Hebrew paneh, the Septuagint used the Greek word prosopon. Prosopon is one of two words commonly used in the New Testament to refer to actual presence. The other word is parousia, which is commonly associated with the Second Coming. To convey actual presence, betweenparousia and prosopon, prosopon is the more powerful term. While parousia most often implies coming, prosopon implies actual face-to-face presence. As Jesus is coming on the clouds, this is His parousia, but once He has actually arrived, then the word prosopon is used.
 
An excellent example of the New Testament usage of prosopon is a scene where the righteous are actually looking upon the face of God in the eternal city:
 

"No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face [prosopon], and his name will be on their foreheads" —Revelation 22:4
 
Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
 
The Holy One in Israel
 
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
 

"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
 
This is the only time that the phrase "the LORD, the Holy One in Israel" is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra'el. A similar phrase, "the Holy One of Israel" (qadowsh Yisra'el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
 
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
 

"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
 
Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
 
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah. And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.

Paul L:

--- Quote --- author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145329#msg145329 date=1354058219]
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
--- End quote ---


--- Quote --- .......few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus.
--- End quote ---

Read the text: Rev 20:7-8

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog & Magog , to gather them together.....and compassed.....the beloved city" (Jerusalem).

Christ had been in the city of Jerusalem for a thousand years by the time Gog & Magog attempts their invasion.
 

--- Quote ---Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this.
--- End quote ---

Quite right.....

 
--- Quote ---But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
--- End quote ---
IMO,
This is for sure , he'd been there for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up. Rev 20:7-8
 

--- Quote ---..... at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
--- End quote ---

Yep, he'd already been there for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8
 


--- Quote ---Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel
--- End quote ---


That's correct, he'd been present in the land for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8.
 

--- Quote ---Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
--- End quote ---

Absolutely correct, Christ had been "paneh" for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up, Rev 20:7-8
 

--- Quote ---Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
--- End quote ---

And he'd been present there for a thousand years, Rev 20:7-8
 
 

--- Quote ---Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
 
"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
 
........ the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
--- End quote ---

In light of Rev 20:7-8, this is absolutely correct. Christ was sitting in the Holy of Holy in Jerusalem at the time Satan makes his invasion attempt as the Chief Prince of Mesech & Tubal.
 

--- Quote ---Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19.
--- End quote ---


The two battles are separated by 1000 years in time. Armageddon occurred when Anti-christ was defeated a thousand years before Satan gets his defeat along with the forces of Gog & Magog.
 


--- Quote ---"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
--- End quote ---

Entire quote is pure fiction, the writer doesn't even allude to Rev 20:7-8 because it doesn't support this untenable position.
 

--- Quote ---Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
--- End quote ---

Huh? I have no idea what the guy just said......Is there an interpreter on-line?
 

--- Quote ---If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah.
--- End quote ---

He starts out with "paneh" that Christ must already be present on the ground when the invasion occurs, then he states: "....one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah". This leaves me feeling quite pleased I didn't learn my use of the English language at his school of theology.

 
--- Quote ---And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
--- End quote ---

........and which scenario would he be talking about here? The scenario he started (paneh) with, or the one he concluded with(panim)? :2c:

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