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Stephen

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MBG's Structure
« on: May 24, 2009, 11:54:09 PM »
Humans began to build cities shortly after the flood. The initial concept was to create interdependency and collective structure for the purpose of self determination apart from God's providence and direction.

The city is the model that is still used today for the same purposes and it is the nucleus of human population that fills the dominion or kingdom ruled by human political authority.

The society that is created is symbolized by a "woman" who is separated from a relationship with God. One of the first cities was Babel and many others were built between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Middle East.

The symbol of "Babylon", or "Mystery Babylon the Great", is derived from Babel (confusion of languages), one of the first cities built after the flood. All spoke a common language until God intervened.

His purpose was to halt the building process and to scatter the inhabitants by limiting their communications. He would prefer that humans live separate nomadic life styles with dependence upon His direction and care.

Babylon is also the literal name of the city of Babylon which was the center of the Babylonian Empire ruling the Middle East during the 6th century B.C. This symbol is also used to describe human civilization(s) without God in the Book of Revelation.

Nimrod, a descendant of Ham, was one of the first human leaders (kings) and he built Babel, Erech, Akkad, and Calneh in the Land of Shinar. This was the beginning of his kingdom (dominion)in the Land of Shinar.

Later Asshur, a descendant of Shem left Akkad in the Land of Shinar, and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth, Calah, and Resen. These cities were located further north and west of the Land of Shinar in the Land of Magog.

His kingdom (dominion) was the beginning of the Akkadian/Assyrian Empire which eventually ruled most of the Middle East by the 7th century B.C. These first cities established his dominion in part of the Land of Magog.

Magog and his brothers Gomer, Mesheck, and Tubal, were descendants of Japheth and established the first settlements in the same area located between the Land of Shinar and the Land of Canaan.

This area was directly south of Mount Ararat and was the beginning of their dominions shortly after the flood. Further extents of this area were developed westward and southward toward the Land of Canaan.

The two cities of Mesheck and Tubal were built in this land and were named after Magog's younger brothers. These two inland commercial centers traded with early Canaanite settlements on the Mediterranean coast.

Magog's other relatives Gomer and Togarmah settled in the northern extents (north quarters) of Land of Magog. The rule of Magog's land eventually passed to the Akkadian/Assyrian political powers.

This same area of Magog's original settlements is where the little horn, human leader (Satan's christ) will first appear at the end of this present age.

He will begin with a smaller dominion there at first and then expand it to rule most of the Middle East. This is why God has Ezekiel address Satan (Gog) and the land of Magog in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

The Akkadian king Sargon was the first to establish and rule over a system of combined city/states from this same area. All paid tribute and were subjected to his rule. This same area is in northern Iraq today.

The "position" of the human "king" is part of the composite model of the "woman" (human inhabitants), and the king's "dominion" (head, mountain) as it is described in the Book of Revelation.

It is vital for the student of Bible prophecy to understand these symbols used to describe human organization that separates from a necessary relationship with God.

Sargon's rule (dominion) eventually covered most of both of the Lands of Magog and Shinar and extended to the Mediterranean in the west and to the Persian Gulf in the east.

All of these early human habitations were designed and built on the concept of self rule apart from God's providence and direction. This has been and still is the model of human civilization.

The city (woman) became the center of the human king's power, following, support, and resources. Human organization of this type was a necessary component of the king's dominance.

He could develop political infrastructure, collect taxes, raise armies, and control these human populations within his kingdom (dominion). The next step was further expansion by conquering other peoples and their lands.

Human interaction creates the energy, synthesis, and motivation for the development of culture, social infrastructure, materialism, trade, commerce, false religions, and self determination.

This model of human design includes the human king "position" (government), the dominion (extent of the king's rule), and the society (woman) that exists within the dominion.

It also creates the potential for expansion by alliance and conquest. The world has experienced continuous warfare and human civilization has been responsible for mass death and destruction since the beginning of time.

God is against this model because it is built on the fallen condition of human nature and because it excludes His interaction.

Human behavior can and does become antagonistic toward God beyond His tolerance. When this happens His judgment can be sudden and brutal.

Human societies are collectively and individually lost without a relationship to Him and this can lead to an individual's eventual spiritual death and elimination.

The model produces an environment packed with deceptions, distractions, seductions, and misleading influences which can prevent humans from finding out the truth about their existence and future survival.

There is a contrasting theme presented in Scripture involving the social context of this model. God called Abraham to leave the city of Ur and the Sumerian culture for the Land of Canaan about 1,000 years after the flood.

There he was to establish (father) a nation and city that would be set apart from all others. The Land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem was to be the human organization model of contrast.

It was to be an example to the world of a nation and city under the providence and direction of God. God Himself would be their King and they would be His people.

The relationship was eventually traded by Israel for the ways of the other cities and nations, but God has and is still honoring his agreements with Israel of whom some (a remnant) will eventually accept and obey Him.

God sent His Son Jesus Christ to be the King of the nation of Israel 2,000 years later and He was rejected by His own people.

The scope of Bible prophecy ends with the rejection and resumes again to present events that will lead up to His return.

He will come again the second time at the end of this present age and His Kingdom (dominion) will extend over the entire earth and He will rule from Jerusalem.

Israel's early intransigence caused God to bring judgment against the nation by allowing the surrounding nations to attack, destroy, and occupy their land. The Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans were examples.

He sent prophets to the nation to warn of impending judgment if Israel did not turn to Him and repent of their intentional behavior.

The same prophets recorded their visions in the Old Testament and these also include related events that are yet future from today. The nation was expelled entirely from the land by the end of the first century.

God scattered Israel to reside in the very nations that He brought against them from which they are to return for the second coming of their Messiah King, Jesus Christ.

They will experience a time of unprecedented trouble almost to the point of total extinction in the Land of Israel and on a worldwide scale.

This will take place during the last 7 years of this present age. The nation will be invaded, conquered, and occupied by the beast and his followers for 42 months.

A believing remnant of the nation will turn to God during the great tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble) and will accept the Kingship of their Messiah Jesus Christ.

There is another dimensional component related to human organization revealed in Scripture. We do not detect this with our limited senses, but the Bible contains a great deal of information and its significance to human existence.

This is the dimension of the spirit world of angelic creatures of whom some have been, are, and will be involved with human civilizations. This interaction is allowed by God and is subjected to His limitations.

The trend has been from a higher to a lower more restrained level of interaction since the beginning of human existence and it will increase dramatically at the end of this present age during the 70th week.

Satan lost his position and authority in God's government because of his rebellion and intransigence. His focus has been on corrupting and destroying humans since Adam and Eve were created and he still pursues these objectives today.

God addresses Satan as Gog, identifies his place of origin on the earth as the Land of Magog, and calls him the "chief" prince of Mesheck and Tubal.

This description is an example of Satan's involvement with humanity in the early stages of human settlements in the Middle East shortly after Noah's flood.

God uses these ancient identifiers to pinpoint Satan's location of operation at the time of the end of this present age. His involvement with the two ancient commercial centers of Mesheck and Tubal portray his connection with human society.

The developments of human organization into cities, larger city/states, and empires become targets of satanic exploitation. Satan is the "chief" prince of other fallen angels who participate in his strategy of corrupting the human race.

Visions contained in Bible prophecy are specifically focused upon the Middle East and the human civilizations that have existed there since the flood and the scope of the visions is limited by God for His specific purposes.

Other significant developments on the earth from migrations out of the Middle East existed in parallel, but do not appear in the visions. Neither do the Roman or subsequent empires over the past 2,000 years appear in the visions.

Five Middle Eastern dominions included in the visions of the Old Testament prophets and in Revelation are historical and there are two more that will exist there in the near future.

Satan has structured a number of his angelic followers to rule over specific geographic centers of human civilization on a worldwide basis. The Bible contains those centered in the Middle East.

The Middle East is the focus of the visions of the Bible prophets and is very much in the focus of today's current news headlines. Many nations are involved and vexed by the instability and warfare taking place involving the Middle East, militant Islam, the West, and Israel.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 11:56:29 PM by Stephen »

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 07:42:57 PM »
There are seven stages of the kingdoms of lost humanity (symbol of the woman in Revelation 17 and 18) recorded in the scope of Bible prophecy. The time frame begins with development shortly after the flood and ends with a worldwide condition at the time of the end. Five of the stages are historical and the scope is limited to the Middle East. The two remaining stages are future and the scope is both worldwide and Middle Eastern. The Lord first reveals his view of lost humanity in the process of organizing for self determined separation from Him by building cities shortly after the flood in the Middle East. He then reveals this same condition existing at the time of the end on a global scale and His related actions to eliminate it. [Genesis 10:10-11, 11:1-9] [Revelation 17,18]

The visions and records of the O.T. prophets provide details of all seven stages with focus on the Middle East, and the Book of Revelation notes all seven providing a broader view of last two which includes the Middle East specifically and the rest of the world in general. There is a break in the scope of all of the visions between the 5th and 6th stages and this period of human history is not included in the scope of the visions. The condition of lost humanity is expanded in Revelation and includes a great city and all of the other cities in the world at the end of this present age. The picture is one of the great city connected with all others on a global scale. [Daniel 2:31-45, 7:3-27,] [Revelation 17,18]

The term kingdom implies a human king position (government) ruling over a geographical territory with human inhabitants representing the extents of the king's dominion or control over the area. The seven stages of these kingdoms are referred to as mountains upon which the woman, the condition of lost humanity, sits. The change from one stage to the next indicates the change in human government, or ruling authority. All of these seven stages noted are Middle Eastern oriented. [Daniel 2:31-45, 7:3-27,] [Revelation 17]

These stages are also referred to as the seven heads (dominions) of the beast. This description adds another factor and indicates satanic rule over each. Satan has entered into and has become the god of lost humanity. He does this by and through a structure of other powers and principalities who rebelled with him against God long ago and they are the fallen angelics who worship Satan as god. [Daniel 10:20-21] [Revelation 12:3-17, 9:1-2, 9:11, 9:15-16, 11:7, 13:4, 17:8-14]

The particular beast represented in Revelation is Abaddon (apollyon), the destroyer, and angelic king of the abyss. He is also seen in Daniel's visions as the little horn, the last human king of the north in the Middle East. He is both because he becomes the little horn by incarnation and full possession. He once ruled five dominions of the past in the Middle East and will come out of the abyss to rule his next two in succession there at the time of the end. [Daniel 7:8 7:19-20, 8:9, 8:23-25, 9:26, 11:36-45, 12:7]

The scope of the visions of five of the stages of lost humanity of the past is limited to the Middle East and includes Satan's primary dominions of the Land of Magog, and the next four successors of this geographical area which included Assyrian, neo-Babylonian, Persian, and northern Greek rule. Each dominion expanded in size until Alexander's Asian empire was divided resulting in a smaller northern dominion ruled by a successor general. The last Greek king to hold the king position in the scope of visionary prophecy was Antiochus IV. [Daniel 2, 7, 8:3-8, 11:2-4, 11:21-35]

Alexander is noted as a "great horn" because of the extent and size of His initial dominion. The next ruler of a diminished kingdom noted in this vision is the "little horn" of the time of the end. He is noted as a little horn because his dominion will be small at first, and it will include the ancient Land of Magog. The reader should recognize that this transition moves directly from the end of Greek rule before the first century to the time of the end. There is nothing in the scope of the vision between these two dominions. [Daniel 8:8-13, 8:23-25, 11:36-45, 12:7]

The Book of Revelation expands the scope of the seven kingdoms of the woman (where the condition of lost humanity sits) to reveal all of the kingdoms (governments) and their cities in the world at the time of the end. This condition is global and there is a great city which is dominating all of the rest. The specific and Middle Eastern dominions of the beast (where the woman sits as well) are represented by his last two heads, the 6th and the 7th. His five ancient dominions have already fallen and are historical. [Revelation 17, 18]

Daniel's visions give us the symbolic links of the beast's past rule in the Middle East (five fallen) and also two in the future, the 6th and the 7th that will exist in succession during the time of the end. The leopard, bear, and lion symbols represent three of his past dominions. The little horn, king of the north, will begin with a smaller dominion at first and then expand it into the next which will include most of the Middle East at the time of the end. The beast, who is Satan's agent controlling the little horn, is described with the symbols of his past ancient Middle Eastern rule. [Daniel 7:3-7, 8:9, 8:23-25, 11:36-45, 12:7] [Revelation 13:2

Further revelation indicates that there will be 10 other kings existing at the time the little horn rises at the time of the end. He will unite them and they will eventually share power and authority with him in ruling his 7th dominion. It is this alliance that will attack and destroy the great city of the woman (lost humanity), which will have a huge financial and economic impact on a global scale. This specific part of lost humanity will not be located in the Middle East dominated by the little horn and the other 10 kings. Satan will also drive his agents and followers to attack, invade, and occupy the Holy Land. This will include unbelieving Israel as part of lost humanity, except for a believing remnant (the woman of Revelation 12 symbolizes this remnant). [Ezekiel 38,39] [Zechariah 12,13,14] [Daniel 7:7,20, 11:41, 12:7] [Revelation 12:1-2,5-6,13-17, 17:3,12,16]

These are the IDs of Satan (the dragon), the woman (lost humanity), the great city, the beast, the little horn (king of the north), the 10 horns (10 kings), and the beast's seven dominions. The Lord is going to judge the woman (all of lost humanity) during his hour of trial including the great city first, then Israel and then all of the other cities, destroy the beast and those parts of unbelieving humanity who will follow him, eliminate human rule, and bar Satan from interaction for 1,000 years. He will then restore the kingdom to national Israel and rule the earth from Jerusalem for the same time frame of 1,000 years. [Revelation 17,18,19,20]

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 09:30:30 PM »
Hi Stephen

I was wondering if you see any parallels between the prophecy of the tower of Babel when all spoke the same language to get to heaven to the Roman Church that was all of what was called to be "Christian" for many centuries to the scattering with so many different languages (doctrines) to all those who call themselves Christians today who each have their own "right" way to heaven?

Blessings

Doug

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 12:08:22 AM »
MBG is symbolic of all of lost humanity that has taken position against the Lord and His providence .... the story begins at Babel after the flood and continues to this very day .... the Lord views this condition of lost humanity as being intransigent against Him and He reveals and defines this behavior as "Mystery Babylon the Great"

This condition of the human exists in many and varied forms including false religions with imaginary gods .... or no "religion" for that matter [agnostic, atheism]

There is no question about the fact that humans have and do invent false gods and false religion for the purpose of side stepping the truth about the Lord

Professing christianity is not lacking of this behavior for sure .... in many ways

So is Islam which is a less subtle and more direct and overt perversion of human behavior toward the Lord

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 05:01:08 AM »
However according to the Bible this mystery babylon the great who who has bedded down with so many lovers is defined as something in a particular location if we are going to take a strictly literal approach to her identity.

Rev 17:9    And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


So who now sits on seven hills that holds God's people in bondage Stephen?

Blessings

Doug


Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 05:25:41 AM »
The 7 mountains are the 7 successive kingdoms of satan's beast over time [Revelation 17:8]

.... not the 7 hills of Rome

Five of these kingdoms of satan's beast in the Middle East have fallen [before the first century]  .... two more are scheduled for the time of the end .... the first [the 6th smaller] at the beginning of the time of the end, and then the next and final [the 7th expanded divided kingdom of the beast]

It is the "great city" part of MBG that will be destroyed at the beginning of the tribulation period [Revelation 8] .... this kingdom is not the RCC by description given in Revelation 18

The ancient Roman Enpire is not included in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets and neither are any successive rulers of the Middle East over the past 2,000 years

There are only 7 kingdoms included in the scope .... 5 have fallen and the last two are scheduled for the time of the end

The Lord has delayed His second advent and there is a breach in the visions between the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel [about 33 A.D] and the beginning of the 70th which is still pending .... Rome is a matter of recorded history in the N.T., but this is not visionary prophecy 

The Lord will seek to destroy all of the cities [all connected and part of MBG] of the nations during the tribulation period upon His return .... this will include those of the kingdom of the beast in the Middle East and all others by the time the tribulation period is over

And no human religious organization holds the true believer "in bondage" .... the beliver in Jesus Christ is free from any such bondage

There are many professing christians who are held in bondage by pseudo christian organizarions and their related theologies .... most of these are of the "christian" cults ..... large and small .... liberal and fundamental .... a vast array of off track theologies

« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 05:41:18 AM by Stephen »

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 12:59:24 PM »
I agree........ the seven hills have nothing to do with Rome and for that matter either does the tower of babel....... that is strong John Hagee baptist type doctrine that I wondered if you were part of........ glad to see that you are not.

Jerusalem is the city that sits on seven hills

It is Jerusalem on earth that is the city who is the great whore that sits on seven hills who with her children (churches of man) is still in bondage through whom power has been given to the false prophet ............. versus Jerusalem from above that is the woman with the seed from wwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back in the garden that bruises the head of Satan and is the mother of all those who come worship in spirit and in truth.

Blessings

Doug

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 07:26:48 PM »
I don't follow JH, but am aware of his teaching ..... I do not agree with all of it since I do not agree with all of the traditional pre-tribulational teaching

Neither do I believe that Jerusalem is the "great city" of the Gentiles recorded in Revelation 17 and 18 .... the description does not fit Jerusalem

The other "great city" recorded in Revelation 12 is Jerusalem .... the Lord's city

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 08:57:29 PM »

The other "great city" recorded in Revelation 12 is Jerusalem .... the Lord's city

Hmmmm..... are you speaking of the woman who goes back to the wilderness instead of unto the promise land like the ones who came out of her did (the male child "caught up to heaven")

.......... maybe you meant a different chapter  :dontknow:

Blessings

Doug

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 09:19:01 PM »
No, I mean chapter 12

The woman is national Israel, the manchild is the Lord, and the great city is Jerusalem in this passage
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 09:23:19 PM by Stephen »

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 09:54:37 PM »
No, I mean chapter 12

The woman is national Israel, the manchild is the Lord, and the great city is Jerusalem in this passage

Stephen............. Revelations was things shown unto John that were to come to past........... not already happened  :sigh:

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 10:59:54 PM »
Revelation 12 has a broad view given for understanding

The passage is set for the time of the end, but historical back drop is given for understanding ..... the Lord is looking at the overview of Israel's past ..... and future during the coming tribulation period

The passage includes satan's attempt to kill the Lord and His ascension in the first century

And it is the believing remnant part of the nation that will flee into the wilderness from "Judea" [Israel] to escape from the invasion of satan's beast and followers at the middle of the coming 70th week [the tribulation period] decreed for the nation [Zechariah 14:1-4; Matthew 24:15-16]

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 11:26:51 PM »
Revelation 12 has a broad view given for understanding

The passage is set for the time of the end, but historical back drop is given for understanding ..... the Lord is looking at the overview of Israel's past ..... and future during the coming tribulation period

The passage includes Satan's attempt to kill the Lord and His ascension in the first century

And it is the believing remnant part of the nation that will flee into the wilderness from "Judea" [Israel] to escape from the invasion of satan's beast and followers at the middle of the coming 70th week [the tribulation period] decreed for the nation [Zechariah 14:1-4; Matthew 24:15-16]

OK ........ I see

You just want us to ignore this verse......... as if it was never in the Bible?

Rev 1:19    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


Jesus who has already been crucified and resurrected according to many for as much 50 years is telling John in a vision that he can see to write the things "that are" that He has just shown John and also of the things that are yet to come to past and you have the audacity to push it aside disobeying the direct commandment of our Lord who commands us to live by every word of God and not just the ones of our choosing.

Sorry Stephen.......... I am trying to help you but I will not ignore scripture

Well did Jesus speak of you when he said "for the traditions of man you make the word of God to be of no effect"

I can understand not being given ears that hear what the spirit says (after all not many have them) but when it is written in plain language that we are reading in God's Holy Word of things that at that time were yet to come, yet you just dismiss it you are fulfilling the works of satan who is the first to come and take away the word.......(Do I need to show you that scripture?)

That is why the church is so ignorant and has become a godless church........ because of a clergy that is doing exactly what you are doing.

Tell me something Stephen........ are you a member of a clergy or as they say an "elder of the church"?

Blessings

Doug



Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 12:13:58 AM »
"Tell me something Stephen........ are you a member of a clergy or as they say an "elder of the church?"

>Here is what I will tell you and then let's move on to meaningful discussion regarding the Lord's Word .... if you can and are willing

>I am not a member of anything and have no affiliation with any organized "christian" movement .... neither am I member of any clergy as you put it

>What I see in your postings and replies is a very crass and condescending attitude which you should be ashamed of especially since you claim to be a follower of the Lord ... your associate in collusion reflects the same and even more unacceptable ranting ... this by itself tells me much about you and reflects a very questionable authenticity of your "christian" fronting

>I also detect the moorings of cult behavior in your demeanor by the way

>This approach does not create a setting for meaningful and constructive dialogue, so I will disengage until you can show me that you are willing to behave in a christian like manner

>Attacking others, their work, and beliefs .... and attempting to draw them into debating is not acceptable to me at all

>So I will post solid, sound and understandable rendering of the Lord's Word [whether you agree or not] for others to ponder and you and I will agree to part company so that we do not make a mockery of the Bible in front of those who look on 

>I am not a novice in the Bible forum board posting and know the ropes .... so your style greeting does not surprise or impress me
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 12:17:52 AM by Stephen »

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 01:10:48 AM »
Stephen

There is a law that no witness is allowed to remain silent and anytime you can lawfully prove any witness that I use (verse in scripture) to be irrelevant I would like to see you do so.

Also you do not have the right to say that when Jesus says it is to come to past for you to come along and say that it happened some 50 years earlier........ that is distorting the truth and that my friend is saying it kindly

Yes we are miles apart and until you yield to the manner in which God instructed us to determine truth that were laws given by God and praticed by Jesus and the Apostles throughout their teachings we will continue to stay miles apart but not like oil and water........ more like the war between flesh (the ways of man) versus spirit (the Word of God).

Blessings

Doug

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 07:47:50 PM »
"Yes we are miles apart"

>We are

"and until you yield to the manner in which God instructed us to determine truth"

>This will not happen for sure

Offline Molly

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 08:01:46 PM »
Hi Stephen,  I really enjoyed reading what you wrote here, although I am still struggling with a lot of these details in prophecy.  But, I especially enjoyed what you had to say about cities, and how that structure is not part of God's plan for man, but satan's plan for man.  This was shown to me, also, recently in another context.  But, Cain, after he murders his brother and is banished from God's presence, goes off and builds a city.  So here we see the first city mentioned in the bible being built by a murderer.

Our Father is a farmer, and his son, Adam, his husbandman.  Why then would God want his man to live packed together like sardines in dirty, crime riddled, sinful cities?  We saw the extreme of this with sodom.  


16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

 17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


--Gen 4


Offline Cardinal

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 08:12:57 PM »
 :cloud9: That caught my eye, too, Molly, but I forgot to mention that point as I was "lost" in the other posts. I never thought about that before; good point to ponder. Blessings and good to see YOU posting again on here as well.  :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Livelystone

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »
"Yes we are miles apart"

>We are

"and until you yield to the manner in which God instructed us to determine truth"

>This will not happen for sure

Why would you refuse God's law ?  :sigh:

That old "any verse taken out of context is pretext" has no biblical support and is teaching straight out of Satan's handbook that he has been using for some two thousand years to keep the church in the dark doing his bidding instead of God's

Jesus, Paul and Peter continually repeated it and taught by it....... Isaiah makes a good summary of it in chapter 28 as well as give the warning for those who refuse it

If one desires to unlock the mysteries spoken of by Paul then the laws for determining truth are the keys

Blessings

Doug

Offline Nathan

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2009, 09:35:14 PM »
Revelation 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
19Write the things which thou hast seen,(which was) and the things which are, (which is) and the things which shall be hereafter(and is to come);

On a literal plain, yes, John recorded things that happened, were happening and were yet to come . . .but to think that "we" are to apply it now on the same plain that John received it then is where we get distracted.  God always let his kids know ahead of time what was coming so that they would be fully aware that it was God that was causing those things to happen.  But again, we're called to walk in the spirit . . taking things literally is not walking in the spirit, it's walking in the natural . .in the flesh . . .

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Revelation 5
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Jesus was the only one worthy to open this seal . . . .but when?  When did Jesus refer to this book of Daniel?  Because if he quoted it, then what he was doing was, he was reopening what once was sealed . . .

Matthew 24
Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So, the things that Daniel recorded were to be sealed.  The things that Daniel saw were virtually the same as what John saw.  Two books involved here.  Daniel's was sealed, Jesus then opened it . .why?  Because the time had come THEN for the prophecies in the book to come to pass.  From Daniel to Jesus . .it was only 4 or 5 hundred years . . .if that.  So, that book was closed because the time had not come for it to manifest. 

Jesus comes, reaches back and pulls up this book, he quotes from it . .reopening it's contents and prophesying the things previously given were about to happen.  Jesus goes to the way of the cross, John now arrives at Patmos . . .interestingly named . . .means "place of my killing".  You want a revelation of Jesus from the Father?  There needs to be a death in your carnality . .that's not a bad thing . .it's a great thing.  Judgment of God is not a horrific thing, it's a purifying thing.

So John comes along and the things shown to him are the exact same language given to Daniel . . .and this time, at the end of the vision, John is also given instructions as to what was to be done with the book.

Revelation 22:10
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand

Still think the prophecies in there are for our generation or one yet to come?  To do so you have to deny the fact that even though it was only a few hundred years, the first book was to be sealed . .but yet it's been 2,000 years since John and that book was to remain open for the prophecies . .not some . . .all. . .the prophecies were to happen THEN.  the time WAS at hand . . .original language states that "at hand" means it has already started. 

For us to try to apply it literally AGAIN means that it wasn't finished the first time.  Since when does one prophecy take 2000 years to complete?  Applying it spiritually (internally) brings it round full circle . . these things in me must die, these carnal natures, these fleshly desires, I am a city on a hill . . .in me there are cities with walls . .as it was with Jerico.  The Word is not for me to apply to you, it's for me to apply to me . . .inwardly.  There is where truth dwells . .I am a temple where God is at work . . .trying to put me to rest. 

The last day . . .there are only 7 days, then it starts all over again.  The last day is the seventh day . .the seventh day is the Sabbath day.  Jesus said "tear down this temple and in three days I'll raise it up again."  Yes, he was referring to his temple of flesh then, but he's also prophesying of his spiritual temple . .which is us . .and it's been 2 days since those words were uttered, this is the third of the three days . . we are in the last day of the last days.  It's not based on what I study and learn, it's based on my relationship with the Father.  Through my relationship with him he reveals the truth of his Son.

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 11:11:37 PM »
"Still think the prophecies in there are for our generation or one yet to come?"

>Definitely .... no question about this according to the scriptures related to the unfulfilled portion of the Bible prophets

>Things recorded in this category have simply not come to pass yet

>The Lord has delayed His return and associated events and this should be evident to anyone who knows the scriptures and has a knowledge of recorded history of the past 2,000 years

>It sounds like you are borrowing from the historical preteristic view in your post above

>I can post a multitude of scriptures that you will be hard pressed to relegate to the past .... or sweep under the rug

Offline Doc

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2009, 01:02:51 AM »
"Behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me."

Doesn't sound like he delayed His coming to me.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Stephen

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2009, 02:01:34 AM »
Doc,

"Doesn't sound like he delayed His coming to me"

Believe it ..... when He does intervene it will be quick ...... sudden .... and without signs or warning

2Thessalonians
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Read this:

2Peter
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [note: Romans 11:25]

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 03:23:49 AM by Stephen »

Offline Molly

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 02:53:30 AM »
Quote from: Nathan
For us to try to apply it literally AGAIN means that it wasn't finished the first time.  Since when does one prophecy take 2000 years to complete?  Applying it spiritually (internally) brings it round full circle . . these things in me must die, these carnal natures, these fleshly desires, I am a city on a hill . . .in me there are cities with walls . .as it was with Jerico.  The Word is not for me to apply to you, it's for me to apply to me . . .inwardly.  There is where truth dwells . .I am a temple where God is at work . . .trying to put me to rest. 

The last day . . .there are only 7 days, then it starts all over again.  The last day is the seventh day . .the seventh day is the Sabbath day.  Jesus said "tear down this temple and in three days I'll raise it up again."  Yes, he was referring to his temple of flesh then, but he's also prophesying of his spiritual temple . .which is us . .and it's been 2 days since those words were uttered, this is the third of the three days . . we are in the last day of the last days.  It's not based on what I study and learn, it's based on my relationship with the Father.  Through my relationship with him he reveals the truth of his Son.

Very nice analysis, Nathan. :cloud9:

Still, I can't help but think that something monumental will happen on a grand scale that will impact this world, remove evil, raise up the body of Christ, the meek will inherit the earth, Christ will take over rule with his saints, changing everything overnight.  The transition is bound to be difficult.  It is, after all, a spiritual war.

So, I wait.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Offline willieH

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Re: MBG's Structure
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 09:56:31 AM »
willieH: :Sparkletooth:

More false teaching...  :thumbdown:

The Lord has delayed His return and associated events and this should be evident to anyone who knows the scriptures and has a knowledge of recorded history of the past 2,000 years

This is an out and out lie... for the following reasons...

(1)  DELAYS are due to something going WRONG in a preset plan... any PLAN which is DELAYED has been CHANGED...  This suggests that the PLAN of YHVH somehow has gone awry for reasons unknown, lending Him AND His PLANNED date, to IMPERFECTION... unable to manifest according to a TIME that HE has SET...  This in itself is enough to refute STEPHEN's assertion. 

#1 establishes that STEPHEN's claim is ILLOGICAL...



(2)  YHVH changes NOT -- Mal 3:6 -- a "delay of His return" is a change of plans, which sets this DIVINELY planned event, to a different DATE or HOUR in time... 

#2 establishes that STEPHEN claims that YHVH, contrary to His stated WORD, ...changes = LIE



(3)  The WORD says that NO MAN (not even Stephen) KNOWS the DAY or Hour of His coming, not even CHRIST, but YHVH only... which also means that this moment is SET... and only YHVH knows when it shall occur...

According to the thinking and deductions of STEPHEN...  He claims to know things that JESUS CHRIST did not even KNOW -- Mark 13:32 --  STEPHEN cannot make such a DEFINITE statement unless he has KNOWLEDGE of the PLANNED day and hour... He does NOT have such KNOWLEDGE!

For any man to say that a DELAY has occured would mean that HE has knowledge (DAY / HOUR) of something only GOD has... for such a determination is privy to DIVINE KNOWLEDGE cannot be made by the observations of FINITE ARROGANCE...

The above quote is completely contrary to the WORD... and is a blatantly FALSE statement... 

#3 establishes that STEPHEN claims to have KNOWLEDGE that even JESUS did not have = LIE

Believe what you will, TRUTH or LIES...

...willieH  :cloud9: