Doomsday 2012: The End of Days

[Nathan]

God has a sense of humor I guess: the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings,

I know nothing about that. Question.
If they where pagan, why all the trouble of predicting, traveling to bring a gift to something they don't believe in?
I would say they would be afraid to bring such honors/gifts to Jesus they don't believe in because it most likely upsets their pagan god(s).
So perhaps they where not really pagan. Or recently converted because they say a prediction come trough?

the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings

Jesus just came to find the lost sheep. What's the best place to find that sheep? Among pagans perhaps....

WW You're killing me man!!!  You are the most Chrisitan athiest I've ever met . . .and YOU'RE asking the question about pagans honoring Christ?  Am I the only one that sees the irony in this???

For me, if God can use Pharoah to manifest his glory to all the nations . . then he can use astrologers to come to the Truth of who their source of authority is as well.  God uses the natural to reveal the spiritual (Romans 1:20)  And using these men who lived solely on natural means which led them straight to the Son where they came and honored his death, burial and resurrection . . .makes you wonder if "they" themselves really knew why they brought the specific gifts they did.

[WhiteWings]

Later I figured out why they searched for Jesus.
Isaiah predicted His birth. Daniel was capitive in Babylonia.
Zororoaster was a pupil of Daniel. He build his own religion based partly on what Daniel thaught him.
The Magi's where looking for a pagan savior but found the original Christan savior.
They/Isaiah did predict the exact details of the star of Bethlem. Personally I can't find them. Archologists found many clay tables it seems. A star went supernova. It's light gets a million times brighter for a few months.
Before and after the start was to faint to see. So it looks like  a new star. There is more to it but that star appeared in the belly/womb of constellation Virgo/Virgin.=> one of the many variations that is based on the fact Herod died 2BC. (majority of evidence points to 4BC.

Anyway.... For me Revelation always has been the closing chapter/book of the Bible. But now I start to wonder if the verse below is an 'end times' verse or the birth of Jesus.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

As I said Isaiah has predicted the same thing. If I understood things correctly every verse needs a second verse stating the same to make it true. So this verse could be just that. The problem is that it has been written after the birth of Jesus.

WW You're killing me man!!!  You are the most Chrisitan athiest I've ever met . . .and YOU'RE asking the question about pagans honoring Christ?  Am I the only one that sees the irony in this???

There is a verse that says something not to honor God (only) with your lips but also with your heart.
I'm learning things here. So the lips (and mind) part possibly is ok. But my heart??? It feels it still needs a lot of defrosting. That makes me an atheist by by Biblical standards.
I know atheist sites that are run by people that possibly know more about the Bible than the average Christian.
But they only use that knowledge to mock the Bible. So me being here says nothing about the state of my heart....

[noname]

hi jabcat,
something to ad to the conversation:
the Mayans predicted that the "current age" would end on 21 December 2012...they did not say that it would be doomsday.

Something not mentioned here and which is a cosmic fact, is that our galaxy (the milky way) will align with the centre of the universe in December 2012. This would be the first time in 15000 years that this would occur. The mayans, the Magi (babylonians) have predicted this many moons ago already (it is even depicted in their art).
This alignment will form a great galactic cross, actually, two crosses superimposed onto each other.
Also, it is important to know how these predictions were/are made. It has to do with our sun's traverse through the universe through the constellations. Only a few people know that the sun's traverse through the constellations is also changing, and by the time the galactic cross is be formed, there would be a new constellation in play...giving us 13 "signs of the zodiac" instead of 12. The galactic cross is going to form in the middle of this  constellation, which is called Ophiucus "the serpent bearer" (between scorpio and saggitarius)...it depicts a man wrestling with a snake holding its tail and head in his hands.

The above is not prophesy, but fact...
and now taking these facts into account and applying it to prophesy...the following pops out for me:
- the Bible says that when Jesus comes again we'll all be seeing his sign in the sky...could the galactic cross be his sign?
- the sign of Ophiucus is quite interesting...a "hidden sign" ie not many know of its existence...a man wrestling with a Snake...mmmm
- the fact that the Magi saw this coming...they also saw Jesus first appearance on earth coming...mmm
- some scientist reckon that when our galaxy (specifically earth and the sun) is aligned with the centre of the universe, we might receive some cosmic rays from the centre of the universe on earth too, changing some of the natural frequencies on earth of all living things and some "evolution" could take place (this one for those metaphysical folks)...

use it...don't use it ;)

[Cardinal]

  If this is true, I find parts of that very interesting. Thanks for posting it. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Interesting bit to add this morning.  I got a call from a family member, who stated they had just read an article in the paper from an FDIC person, which said the FDIC would be broke by the end of the year.  The caller said, and I'll paraphrase, "money is soon going to be worthless.  If anyone's going to do anything, they'd better do it now and not wait before it's too late.  I've been reading a prophecy book by Texe Marrs, and I agree with everything he says.  Not just because it's in the book, but because I see it in scripture.  The very next thing that's going to happen is the anti-Christ is going to be revealed.  I'm thinking of liquidating all my assets, and dividing it up among family members, so they can pay off things that would help over the next year.  The first 3 and a half years [of the tribulation] is going to look pretty good, but then [it's all going to break loose]". 

Anyway, you get the picture.  I've had to sort through that, dealing with it emotionally, intellectually, and hopefully spiritually...including, we don't intend to take any of the money.

I've written a reply that includes "God will meet all our needs by his riches in Glory,..consider the lilies of the field, how they grow;  they neither toil nor spin, and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.  Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?,   and I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil".

So besides "hey, if they're handing out money I'll take some", anyone have any thoughts/reactions at all on this?  Don't be too rough, it was a close family member  .

God's blessing, James.

[Raggedy Anne]

James,

Are you saying you don't think we are already living in the time of the great tribulation?  Not that America has been completely devastated, but many parts of the world have been suffering terrible horrors - parts of Africa and the Middle East - all the many slain in Iraq under Bush's reign.  It does appear that Israel is getting ready to do something severe which may include turning against America and Britain because they want to attack Iran.  Anyway - I don't feel very hopeful about the earthly future which is why I often think people like my mother are lucky who just die very easily and quickly.  She went in a matter of seconds without knowing the day or the hour she would die and non-violently as well.   The radical right wing is talking guns, ammunition, civil war - etc... 
Once the infrastructure is removed, people's true spiritual condition is exposed... those who love this world are revealed, those who shrink from death will do anything to survive, many will turn to violence because they are not prepared to accept death.    Truthfully, I don't know what to expect.  God can stop a spiritual storm in the blink of an eye - so I don't try to predict things in specifics.    By nature, none of us really wants to suffer, even if we are willing to suffer.

Suicides are way up in the Army and in the general population as more and more people lose jobs.  The numbers for February's job losses were worse than January - astounding numbers of people losing jobs and homes.   Demand for products is down.  Our consumer driven economy appears to be imploding.   

The just shall live by faith.  Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.   

Just a few of my thoughts, for what they are worth...

Anne

[jabcat]

(Made some additions to my post since you posted Anne.)

Oh, I agree with much of what you say here, Anne.  However, especially the part about not really knowing what to expect, so not predicting a lot sometimes...I ask questions, think about things, and offer suggestions...I claim to actually know for absolute certainty very little...I do believe we need to trust God day by day for His blessings of provisions, and that He will bring everything to a good end.  Sometimes I just personally have to resort back to the simplest of faith.  God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

I'm not sure about the time of the great tribulation...many believers even say there won't be one as "we've been taught", some even say it's already happened (70 AD)...so many of the things I always "knew to be true" God has turned upside for me this past 2-3 years, I'm still searching on a lot of things.  What do you think, that we're in it?  The family member in question is a very strong advocate for the "rapture", and I believe pre-trib...I thought I might ask them about that, what they believed..

[Raggedy Anne]

I think we are certainly living in perilous times.  The headlines are regularly shocking, especially concerning the murder and sexual abuse of children and women, sexual slavery, and various perversions.   Things certainly seem worse to me than they did a decade ago even if I have not been personally affected by a particular incident.   I've been shocked also by the numbers of professing Christians who 'politically speaking' have despised the poor and idolized the wealthy.  If I had to guess, I'd say yes, we are on the verge of something earth shattering beyond anything we've ever seen.  But I can't say, "thus saith the Lord"....  I do not mind admitting that I am very perplexed by the conditions around me - worried about my children and my Christian brothers and sisters.  Concerned about the suffering that I cannot stop  - that has always tormented me.  Perhaps I should not let the knowledge of suffering torment me, but it always has.  I do try not to focus on the negative, but have never been able to completely ignore it.   It is not easy being subjected to mortality.  It makes man angry and terrified unless he is walking in the spirit.

[Nathan]

the more I hear things along these lines, the stronger I feel about walking in the spirit.  Jesus even told the disciples about hearing rumors of where Chirst is  . . . we heard it a lot when the hurricane hit New Orleans . . .God's judgment . .we heard it with the twin towers . . .God's judgment . . .everyone will always point to an event happening in their back yard and claim that it's the fulfillment of prophecy . . .when all the while, we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not to try to measure or assess the kingdom of God through observation . . .but yet look at all the Christian leaders out there totally focussed on current problems . . .the reason we are where we are is not because the antichrist is coming . . .the reason we are where we are is because people keep listening to him within themselves.

Just my opinion of course . . .  But Jab . . .I agree with you . .your Scripture you quoted was the first thing that came to my mind as well.

[Molly]

I am putting this here because it is what the scientist says about good and evil, and I believe being aware of these studies will be very important in the days ahead.  I recently watched the documentary, Taxi to the Dark Side, on amazon video on demand for 5 bucks. It's hard to watch, but, again, very important for the days ahead.  Do not ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.




The LUCIFER EFFECT:  Understanding How Good People Turn Evil

by Philip Zimbardo


In this book, I summarize more than 30 years of research on factors that can create a "perfect storm" which leads good people to engage in evil actions. This transformation of human character is what I call the "Lucifer Effect," named after God's favorite angel, Lucifer, who fell from grace and ultimately became Satan.
Rather than providing a religious analysis, however, I offer a psychological account of how ordinary people sometimes turn evil and commit unspeakable acts. As part of this account, The Lucifer Effect tells, for the first time, the full story behind the Stanford Prison Experiment, a now-classic study I conducted in 1971. In that study, normal college students were randomly assigned to play the role of guard or inmate for two weeks in a simulated prison, yet the guards quickly became so brutal that the experiment had to be shut down after only six days.

How and why did this transformation take place, and what does it tell us about recent events such as the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuses in Iraq? Equally important, what does it say about the "nature of human nature," and what does it suggest about effective ways to prevent such abuses in the future?

Please join me in a journey that the poet Milton might describe as making "darkness visible." Although it is often hard to read about evil up close and personal, we must understand its causes in order to contain and transform it through wise decisions and innovative communal actions. Indeed, in my view, there is no more urgent task that faces us today.

http://www.lucifereffect.com/








"The same situation can inspire evil acts in some and heroic acts in others.

To be a hero you have to learn to be a deviant because you are always going against the group."

--Philip Zimbardo


Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html

[Nathan]

I am putting this here because it is what the scientist says about good and evil, and I believe being aware of these studies will be very important in the days ahead.  I recently watched the documentary, Taxi to the Dark Side, on amazon video on demand for 5 bucks. It's hard to watch, but, again, very important for the days ahead.  Do not ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.




The LUCIFER EFFECT:  Understanding How Good People Turn Evil

by Philip Zimbardo



In this book, I summarize more than 30 years of research on factors that can create a "perfect storm" which leads good people to engage in evil actions. This transformation of human character is what I call the "Lucifer Effect," named after God's favorite angel, Lucifer, who fell from grace and ultimately became Satan.
Rather than providing a religious analysis, however, I offer a psychological account of how ordinary people sometimes turn evil and commit unspeakable acts. As part of this account, The Lucifer Effect tells, for the first time, the full story behind the Stanford Prison Experiment, a now-classic study I conducted in 1971. In that study, normal college students were randomly

assigned to play the role of guard or inmate for two weeks in a simulated prison, yet the guards quickly became so brutal that the experiment had to be shut down after only six days.
How and why did this transformation take place, and what does it tell us about recent events such as the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuses in Iraq? Equally important, what does it say about the "nature of human nature," and what does it suggest about effective ways to prevent such abuses in the future?

Please join me in a journey that the poet Milton might describe as making "darkness visible." Although it is often hard to read about evil up close and personal, we must understand its causes in order to contain and transform it through wise decisions and innovative communal actions. Indeed, in my view, there is no more urgent task that faces us today.

http://www.lucifereffect.com/








"The same situation can inspire evil acts in some and heroic acts in others.

To be a hero you have to learn to be a deviant because you are always going against the group."

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html

Hmm . . .natural accounts put aside . . .to debate the Lucifer-being-a-fallen-angel issue .  .or not to debate . ..  beings that it would more than likely hijack Molly's post, I'll choose the latter . . .just know that the guns are loaded on it!!! 

[Molly]

Hmm . . .natural accounts put aside . . .to debate the Lucifer-being-a-fallen-angel issue .  .or not to debate . ..  beings that it would more than likely hijack Molly's post, I'll choose the latter . . .just know that the guns are loaded on it!!! 

He's a scientist.  Ignore his personal theology.  His science is sound.

[Nathan]

So in essence he's saying we must teach ourselves how to control ourselves so that we won't slaughter ourselves?

[Molly]

So in essence he's saying we must teach ourselves how to control ourselves so that we won't slaughter ourselves?

No lol.

I was hoping you would listen to his lecture (second link) and read about his prison experiment at Stanford (first link).

His experiment demonstrates that very quickly and easily all the things that we identify with can be broken down and transformed by the system or situation we are in, if it is severe enough.  Although he was asking students to role play guards and prisoners, within 6 days  they had so thoroughly taken on their new roles, that the 'guards' were becoming brutal and the 'prisoners' were breaking down.  He had to stop the experiment prematurely.

Jerry Milgram did an experiment where he told subjects he was studying how to improve memory.  The 'student' was put behind a screen where he could not be seen by the 'teacher'  and the 'teacher' was told to shock the student  whenever he got a wrong answer.  The subjects who were 'teachers' were just ordinary people hired from the public and paid to participate.   The electronic shock meter they were given had dials starting at 15 volts and going to 450 volts.  As the shock levels went higher,  the dials said danger and were painted red.   The 'teachers' (subjects) were told to start at 15 volts and move higher progressively as the student got wrong answers.  He could not see the student but could hear him screaming in pain at the higher levels.   How many of these teachers went all the way to 450 volts?   The psychiatrists predicted only 1 percent would do so.  In fact, almost 70 percent went all the way to 450, in spite of the screaming of the 'student.'  (There was no real shock, but the teachers didn't know that)

The conclusion is that we are very susceptible to an authority figure or a system which asks us to cross a line we think we would never cross from good to evil.

There's more, but I'll stop there.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I've seen that before . . . but other than getting an emotional reaction out of the viewer . . .what's the lesson?  I mean, the question is still . . .is the point that we need to learn how to control ourselves so we don't kill ourselves . . .isn't that the point of the experiements?  To learn more about how faulty the human phyche is so that we can keep it under better control?

[Molly]

Yeah, I've seen that before . . . but other than getting an emotional reaction out of the viewer . . .what's the lesson?  I mean, the question is still . . .is the point that we need to learn how to control ourselves so we don't kill ourselves . . .isn't that the point of the experiements?  To learn more about how faulty the human phyche is so that we can keep it under better control?

well, to me it is interesting because it really proves the Bible.  This is why Jesus calls us to not be part of the world.
The world is always putting pressures on us to be a part of one evil system or another.  And, most people, if they do not actually do the evil directly themselves, go along with it which is just as bad--because it allows it to continue.   We were not on the verge of torturing people in violation of the Geneva convention and our own Constitution, we were doing it for years until some brave whistle blower, an ordinary low level guy in the military, got the word out to higher ups who would put an end to it.  Not without cost, because receiving death threats against himself and his family, he had to go into hiding for three years.  That is a guy Zimbardo would call a hero.   And, he's calling on all of us to be aware of this proclivity in human nature, and to be heroes in waiting for that day that we will be called upon--and to teach our children that heroes are just ordinary people who do the right thing.   Jesus calls on us to do the same thing.  We are to live consciously and not be following orders in some zombie trance state.  We are to do the right thing, even if it costs us everything. 



Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

--Mark 8

[Nathan]

Yeah, I've seen that before . . . but other than getting an emotional reaction out of the viewer . . .what's the lesson?  I mean, the question is still . . .is the point that we need to learn how to control ourselves so we don't kill ourselves . . .isn't that the point of the experiements?  To learn more about how faulty the human phyche is so that we can keep it under better control?

well, to me it is interesting because it really proves the Bible.  This is why Jesus calls us to not be part of the world.
The world is always putting pressures on us to be a part of one evil system or another.  And, most people, if they do not actually do the evil directly themselves, go along with it which is just as bad--because it allows it to continue.   We were not on the verge of torturing people in violation of the Geneva convention, we were doing it for years until some brave whistle blower, an ordinary low level guy in the military, got the word out to higher ups who would put an end to it.  Not without cost, because receiving death threats against himself and his family, he had to go into hiding for three years.  That is a guy Zimbardo would call a hero.   And, he's calling on all of us to be aware of this proclivity in human nature, and to be heroes in waiting for that day that we will be called upon--and to teach our children that heroes are just ordinary people who do the right thing.   Jesus calls on us to do the same thing.  We are to live consciously and not be following orders in some zombie trance state.  We are to do the right thing, even if it costs us everything. 



Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

--Mark 8

Now that you've given that explanation, I totally understand what you're doing . . .sorry about the confusion.

[WhiteWings]

I am putting this here because it is what the scientist says about good and evil, and I believe being aware of these studies will be very important in the days ahead.  I recently watched the documentary, Taxi to the Dark Side, on amazon video on demand for 5 bucks.

This one Molly?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0854678/
downloading the dvd now.

[WhiteWings]

He's a scientist.  Ignore his personal theology.  His science is sound.

Never trust a scientist if you don't know who is funding his/her research.... 

[trettep]

I believe that when Jesus rose on the 3rd day that this had more significance than many imagine.  Consider this:

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I believe the 3rd day is on the third 1 thousand year period from that time.  If it was from when He was crucified (estimated 30AD) then that would put the completion of the temple at around 2030 when the start of the 3rd day would begin.

Paul

[jabcat]

I believe that when Jesus rose on the 3rd day that this had more significance than many imagine. 

Paul

 ...we barely have a glimpse, and even that's through a glass darkly.  One day, face to face...

Face to face with Christ, my Savior,
Face to face - what will it be,
When with rapture I behold Him,
Jesus Christ Who died for me?

Face to face I shall behold Him,
Far beyond the starry sky;
Face to face in all His glory,
I shall see Him by and by!

What rejoicing in His presence,
When are banished grief and pain;
When the crooked ways are straightened,
And the dark things shall be plain.

Face to face I shall behold Him,
Far beyond the starry sky;
Face to face in all His glory,
I shall see Him by and by!

[Nathan]

I believe that when Jesus rose on the 3rd day that this had more significance than many imagine.  Consider this:

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I believe the 3rd day is on the third 1 thousand year period from that time.  If it was from when He was crucified (estimated 30AD) then that would put the completion of the temple at around 2030 when the start of the 3rd day would begin.

Paul

Take that to the next step bro . . .Jesus said "tear down this temple and in three days I WILL REBUILD IT . . .for me, it's not about the tangible temple in Jerusalem where they're going to try to restart what God already tore down . .but it's the fulfillment of the prophetic words Jesus spoke to Peter . . .Upon this rock "I" will build my church . . ."  Seems that there's a lot of carpentry taking place when Jesus shows up.

At any rate . . . we are seeing the sun set on the second day of the three days he spoke of . .and we're seeing the dawning of this last day of the last days.  And it's not a temple built by men . . .but it's a temple built OF men . . ."What???Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the HG?"

6 days God labored . . .but when the 7th day came, he was at rest . .for the Day of the Lord came, is come, continues to come.  The purpose of the 6, was to usher in the 7th.  6, being the number of man . .carnal man . . .when we can come to the end of ourselves, we'll find the day of rest.

But the church, she's just now beginning to see the dawning of the Sabbath day of rest . .when all of our laboring intentions to fulfill the personal requirements of ministry will come to rest . . .where we stop striking the Rock and begin to see the water flow just by speaking to the very rock we've been previously striking.  In the spirit is where it's already completed . . .another reason why walking in the spirit is so important for us . .it is there where the dominion is . .where we can rule and reign over our cities, our innermost dwelling places where we'll no longer need our emotional walls to protect our delicate doctrines and principles upon which we've built our personalities . . . there is no more seas here . . .no more conflicts, no more carnal tidal waves crashing at our boundaries of understanding . . . there is only one river here . .the same river that began in the garden of Genesis, rushing through Ezekiel, raging through Galgotha, and pouring out of Revelation . . .it's all about the Sabbath . .the resurrection of dead understanding, and the vibrancy of reproductive life. . .it's here . .it's been here . . .we just need to leave behind the principles of the doctrine of Christ . . .and enter into the perfection of Truth and Light . .it's not a place  .it's a person . .the person of Chrsit.

[Cardinal]

  Amen....

[jabcat]

Amen....

And amen!  To God be the glory!