Author Topic: the Manchild.....symbol of what?  (Read 2121 times)

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Offline sheila

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the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« on: March 11, 2014, 06:40:46 PM »
   there are many perceptions out there..of just what this 'manchild' caught up to the throne of God is.  I thought we might

  examine and talk about this.

   I will give my perception to get the ball moving.  I see the manchild as all mankind raised up in Christ and overcoming

   the mind of the adversary[rebellion/sin/death]  each body cell of that child is an individual man/woman  raised up

  and placed in that body in his own order...all individual cells/parts..making ONE

   but some may say..how do you reckon that as including 'all' for in Rev 12 at the child's birth..there are still adversary's?

  ...I see that because...before she travailed  she give birth......'I am the first and I am the last"

....the 'head' is the first to be delivered...the feet the last...............the heel of the body[in the dust] is bruised of the serpent....

   but crushes the adversary's head.......

  in # 23 Odes of Solomon   there is a reference to a sealed document......Joy..Grace..LOve  Walk ye in the Knowledge of

 the Most High[to know Him is to love Him]  and His thought was like a letter[Lo! in the roll of scroll I come]

  it was sealed..and escaped those who sought to read it[only the Lamb can open/reveal it]

  v 10  but a wheel received it and come over it.........and it gathered the multitude of the adversaries...and bridged the rivers

  [see ark in the river Jordan].......the head[I am from above] went down to the feet[ye are from below]  word of God come

 in flesh....for down to the feet ran the wheel[circuit] and that which was a sign upon it.........and there was seen at the head

 the head which was revealed even the Son of the Most High Father........and he inherited and took possesion of

everything[heir] and the thought of many[adversary/legion/serpent head] was brought to not.................

   AND THE LETTER WAS A GREAT VOLUME WHICH WAS WHOLLY WRITTEN BY THE FINGER OF GOD;

   And the name of the Father was on it,and of the Son and of the Holy spirit,to rule for ever and ever.

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 10:32:12 PM »
Here are my thoughts, and being that this is the book of Revelation, am basing these thoughts on clues provided in the Revelation 12 text. I could be wrong, but here is what it seems to me.

When I think about the manchild, I also think about the woman who births the child.

Revelation12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


Clothed with the sun and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Christ had 12 disciples and I take the metaphor, "clothed with the sun," to be a metaphor similar to the white linen surrounded with Light, truth, virtue. It seems to me that this is a reference to the church, a gathering of people in Christ, in which every believer is birthed into the world, who the devil desires to sift, and devour.

Revelation 12
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


It says in the next verses that the child is to "rule all nations" and that he is "caught up unto God and his thrown" promises that in other places in Revelation are given to "the overcomer," while the woman flees into the wilderness to be fed. One could interpret this as a separation of the woman and the manchild, but I don't believe so.

I believe what is happening is that while the church is in the earth beset and chased into the wilderness by the devil, the children of that woman are sitting on thrones as they are persecuted. In other words, I believe this is talking about how the persecuted church is in a higher place in their minds, sitting on the throne of God even while inhabiting this earth in which they are pilgrims.

Revelation 12
 11And they (the bretheren) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


We see two things here, a "REJOICE" and a "WOE." Rejoice to "ye that dwell in the heavens", but WOE to the inhabiters of the earth, because the devil is come upon down unto them. The manchild is not an inhabiter of the earth. This reminds me of what Paul said, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9)

Also: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:3)

We see that when the Devil is cast to earth, he persecutes the woman. And we also saw that "the bretheren" with the testimony, "loved not their lives unto death." In other words, the bretheren are within the woman being persecuted in the earth, even though the seed of the woman is in heavenly places.

The seed of the woman are persecuted in the earth, but the whole time, they are raised unto God in heavenly places and so endure their persecution without revenge or malace and without falling away from the faith, because they are kept by God and the woman is fed while she is in the wilderness.

As part of the testing of the saints, WATER flows from the dragon's mouth as to carry the woman away. I believe when we see "mouth" in Revelation, it speaks of doctrines and teachings, and I believe in this case, it is false doctrine concerning "water" (Spirit of Christ) as Eve was taught false doctrine about the "tree of life" (Spirit of Christ). But the "very elect" cannot be deceived.

So here is who I see to be the manchild:

Revelation 12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Offline sheila

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 11:09:18 PM »
     I agree with you regarding the woman not being seperated from the manchild..just because the head is delivered[throne]

  the rest of the body[all] to the feet must be  delivered. [unless I wash your feet ye have no part of me]. and all must grow up..into

 the fullness of the head.....when we see Him face to face..we shall be just like Him.

  and just as the head come down to the feet[I am from above] the feet must rise up to the head..how beautiful on the Mountain

  the feet shod with the good news.  Let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord,and He shall teach us His ways.



   

     

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 11:28:55 PM »
     I agree with you regarding the woman not being seperated from the manchild..just because the head is delivered[throne]

  the rest of the body[all] to the feet must be  delivered. [unless I wash your feet ye have no part of me]. and all must grow up..into

 the fullness of the head.....when we see Him face to face..we shall be just like Him.

  and just as the head come down to the feet[I am from above] the feet must rise up to the head..how beautiful on the Mountain

  the feet shod with the good news.  Let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord,and He shall teach us His ways.


Yes all must be delivered

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Three measures: As in Adam all Die, so in Christ shall all be made alive, but each to his own order:

1) Christ the first fruit
2) Then his at his coming
3) Then cometh the end, when he shall put down all rule and authority.

Offline sheila

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 11:48:05 PM »
       :thumbsup:

Offline watchman1706

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 02:36:29 AM »
Simply answered, the man child company is the 'elect'. The first fruits of mature sons (Huios).

 :banana: :banana: :banana:

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 10:18:05 PM »
Simply answered, the man child company is the 'elect'. The first fruits of mature sons (Huios).

 :banana: :banana: :banana:

 :iagree:

The dragon who waits to devour the manchild reminds me of the parable of the sower:

Matthew 13
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.


The "evil one" is represented in the parable as a bird who eats the seed, as he is represented in Revelation as a dragon who wishes to devour the child. What's interesting is that the seed is not sown ON the road, but beside it. Paul always referred to living the Gospel as "the WAY." The seed sown beside the road is for those who are not on "the way" yet, who have been birthed by "the woman," the church, but do not understand the word of the kingdom, and what is sown in their hearts is snatched away. They are not the manchild.

What we see in Revelation 12 is the sovereignty of God in protecting the "very elect" (manchild) in the symbolism of carrying the it to the throne so that the dragon cannot devour that child. Again, not so that the manchild does not experience the testing of the dragon pursuing the woman. The woman and the child are as ONE as the Father and the Son are ONE. The church (woman) is persecuted by the devil (dragon), but the elect (manchild) is simultaneously protected by the Spirit which has changed the mind to a heavenly one, and will not fall away in persecution.

The manchild is like the seed sown in good soil.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 02:23:20 AM »
Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God.........(Ephesians 4)

I believe(among other sections also) Ephesians reveals the man-child, the entire letter is written around this mature warrior fro Christ- begnning with the mystery of Christ, the administration of the fulness of times and the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God .......

That you may know the hope of your calling, the riches of His inheritance n the saints and the surpassing greatness of His power towards us who believe(Eph 1)

.......through the "one new man" of Eph 2:14-22

......into the tree of righteousness "rooted and grounded in love" and "filled up to all the fulness of God" in Eph 3

.....the sleeper awaking into the life of Christ Epn 5

.....through the overcomer clad in the full armor of God in chapter 6

To me the man-child is symbolic of mature servants of Christ, gestated as disciples and then birthed from the womb of the Bride(Eph1:21-23), His body, the ecclesia overcoming the works of the dragon through the good news of Christ- the reconciliation of all things(the gates of sheol will not prevail against it)......

and that is not meant to be to the exclusion of anything God may be speaking to someone else through the imagery of the man-child, of course :o)

All the previous posts are beautiful.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline marie glen

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 05:00:44 PM »
hi!
imo - begins as Christ = Manchild,Son of man and 'ends' with all believers, yes (all in Him)

the chapter, Rev 12 -
the woman arrayed with the sun with the moon under her feet and a crown of TWELVE stars (if we want to get metaphorical, "stars' are angels", end Rev ch 1, angels of the twelve tribes)

she gives birth to the manchild/(imo)Son-of-man, the dragon (imo, in the person of Herod) tried to devour the child (the slaughter of the innocents of Bethlehem)

but the manchild/Son-of-man was brought to the throne of God where He sits on the right hand of God, and where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron (an un breakable rule/rod, as the laws and absolutes of God cannot be broken, only we break upon them) (cross.ref-ps 2)

the dragon enraged pursues the woman/the faith, razes Jerusalem 70a.d.

the woman flees/migrates a first migration of the faith
half the battle is manifest as won, the dragon no longer allowed access to the heavens

and he's really ticked off now so he "persecutes" (inquisitions mightily) the woman, but she is given the wings of an eagle that she may sail to a new place, innocent from the face of the dragon for 3.5 modern divisions of time [1620+350=1970]

1970 = then the serpent (guise of the dragon,see nxt verse) releases a flood (proliferation) of vomit/filth (greek word "pornos" to go with she who enchants the world in latter days, the harlot-"pornos" in the greek)

the flood (proliferation of filth/indecency/pornos) is an attempt to wash the woman, the faith off from the face of the earth (verse 14?)

But the earth opens its mouth and swallows the flood (Jesus said "daughters of Jerusalem don't weep for me but for childrens children, for, if they do this (crucify me) in a green leaf, whAt will they do in a dry leaf?"

then the dragon turns his attention back to the rest of her children who have the commandments of God and (by then, imo) have the testimony of Jesus..
                                      .....Jesus told Jerusalem "you shall not SEE me again until YOU say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" and Paul said "if Israel's falling away be salvation to the nations what will their gathering back in be but life from the dead?" (resurrection, the first!!:)

"you, Jerusalem will not seee me again until you say "blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD"

the dragon turns his attention back to the remnant of her other children who have the commandments of God and (by then) the testimony of Jesus... .."and they gather for H`armageddon.."

             :2c: :hiya:
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 05:06:03 PM by marie glen »
"If a stranger enters the room & all are talking in strange tongues, how will they understand?"

"Who is This!? That even the wind and the waves obey Him?" ~ Mt 8:27

Offline sheila

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 05:30:49 PM »
 the scriptures are 'rich' with the enmity between the seed.....in Egypt,Pharoah ordered all male Israelites killed at birth.......

   in Jesus day..Herod slayed the babes....... Hitler's genocide...........in  our modern day

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2014, 04:32:12 PM »
     I agree with you regarding the woman not being seperated from the manchild..just because the head is delivered[throne]

  the rest of the body[all] to the feet must be  delivered. [unless I wash your feet ye have no part of me]. and all must grow up..into

 the fullness of the head.....when we see Him face to face..we shall be just like Him.

  and just as the head come down to the feet[I am from above] the feet must rise up to the head..how beautiful on the Mountain

  the feet shod with the good news.  Let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord,and He shall teach us His ways.


Yes all must be delivered

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Three measures: As in Adam all Die, so in Christ shall all be made alive, but each to his own order:

1) Christ the first fruit
2) Then his at his coming
3) Then cometh the end, when he shall put down all rule and authority.

 :iagree:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline rosered

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 09:13:44 PM »
  yes the manchild !!   love all these answers    Blessings !!! :girlheart:


    of the Son of Man  and Child of  THE LIVING  GOD

Word made flesh and Spirit of the Living God

Offline marie glen

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 08:23:49 PM »
the scriptures are 'rich' with the enmity between the seed.....in Egypt,Pharoah ordered all male Israelites killed at birth.......

   in Jesus day..Herod slayed the babes....... Hitler's genocide...........in  our modern day

amen, the dragon wants to kill all

but in Rev chapter 12,

you can follow it

the woman w 12 stars gives birth to He who will rule all nations, to say it is us, is to go further than scripture, I believe, besides we can follow the time(ing) in the rest of the chapter

 the dragon tries to devour Him as soon as He is born,

But He is taken up to the Throne of God.. Cross ref Hebrews 1:3 "He is now at the right hand of God"

[tHeN] persecution 1 followed by a - for the most part - migration of the faith, (70a.d yes?)

[then] dragon's access to heaven stopped, enrages him and

[then] further persecution--so the faith is given the wings of an eagle--for a 2nd migration of the faith (after persecution, inquisitions, a migration occurred, yes?)

[then] after 3.5 modern divisions of time, a flood (vomit, flood of filth) spewed out after the woman, in an attempt to wash the faith off the face of the earth (spewed by the serpent/beguiling mode of the dragon)

but the earth will open its mouth and will swallow the flood (cr Luke 23:28 & 31) "dry leaf"

[and then] the dragon turns his attention to the rest of the woman's offspring (cr rev 16:14,15,16 - gathers armies to Harmageddon) (the rest of her offspring who by then "have the testimony of Jesus' _"you Jerusalem will not SEE me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"
   :Peace2: :girlheart:
"If a stranger enters the room & all are talking in strange tongues, how will they understand?"

"Who is This!? That even the wind and the waves obey Him?" ~ Mt 8:27

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 08:29:58 PM »
the woman w 12 stars gives birth to He who will rule all nations, to say it is us, is to go further than scripture, I believe, besides we can follow the time(ing) in the rest of the chapter

I see it a bit differently.

Revelation 3
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Wherever the manchild goes he takes all who are one within him. Where he goes, they go.

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »
I see a duality:

John 3
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


The manchild came down from heaven, and yet he is in heaven. I see this paradox as having reality in the Spirit. He is descended into the flesh, but ascended in his mind because he was in the Spirit. I see the same duality in Revelation 12

Offline marie glen

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2014, 02:19:09 AM »
the woman w 12 stars gives birth to He who will rule all nations, to say it is us, is to go further than scripture, I believe, besides we can follow the time(ing) in the rest of the chapter

I see it a bit differently.

Revelation 3
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Wherever the manchild goes he takes all who are one within him. Where he goes, they go.



 :hiya: ...I'm not saying that isn't true.. but Rev 12, all in context of the whole chapter, I don't think that truth (all in Jesus, and reigning w/ Christ during the millennium) applies to Rev chapter 12, which imo has to do with latter age prophecy and history.. And ultimately, of course, "all things are being gathered into Jesus" (col 1:20) :smile:
"If a stranger enters the room & all are talking in strange tongues, how will they understand?"

"Who is This!? That even the wind and the waves obey Him?" ~ Mt 8:27

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 09:25:30 PM »
In Ephesians it says of us....

." And God being rich in kindness because of His great love with which He loved us even being dead in trespasses did make us live together with Christ(by garce you have been saved), did raise us up together and seated us together in the heavenly realms in Christ, that He might show in the ages that are coming the exceeding riches of His gracein kindness towards us in Christ Jesus, for by grace you have been saved thru faith and this is not of you, it is a gift from God(Eph 2:4-8

also

anddid set Him at His right hand far above all principality and authority and might and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come and  He(YHWH) put all things under His feet and gave Him as head over all things to the asembly which is His(Christ) body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.Eph 1:20-23

also

for the equipping of the saints for the work of service untill we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto the knowledge of the son of God to a mature man to the measure of the stature that belongs to the fulness of Christ.......as a result we are no longer to be as babes.....speaking the truth in love growing up in all aspects into Him who is Head, from the whole body, being fitted and joined together by what every joint supplies.....causing the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Eph 4

to me Rev 12 is a spiritual metaphor for this process in this age through which the body repoduces the manchild, head first. The verses, along with others scattered through out the word reveal the beauty of Romans 8

For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed in us. For the anxious longing of the creation awaits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Rom 8 18,19

Beginnining with Christ among the Lampstands, followed by seven letters to seven churches, continuing through these pictures of the ecclessia and aaccompanied by the promises to the overcomers presented earlier by Seth and finally summed up in the universal announcement of good news for all, "Come all you who thirst, drink freely of the water of life"- the revelation is a love letter to the Bride, and fullfillment of Paul's prayer in Eph 1,

For this reason I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, will give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him..... That you may know what is the hope of His calling and the riches of His inheritance in the saints and the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are according to the working of His might which He brought about in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His rigt hand in the heavenly realms in Christ.........

I believe Revelations 12 was just as integrated with Pauls letter to the Ephesians(along with the rest of the scritpures) in 200 AD and 1200 AD and 1800 AD as it is today, revealing the true nature of the body, the bride, the overcomers, the ecclesia, in bringing the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, in an administration suitable to the completion of times, the gathering together of all things in Christ, whether things on earth or things in the heavens.

Now to Him who is able to you according to my gospel and the the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret from long ages past but is now manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all nations leading to the obedience of faith, to the only wise God through Jesus Christ be the glory forever.Romans 16)

The way I see it, Paul wrote to the Ephesians of this Mystery. saying that God in His wisdom and insight has "made it known unto us......The Apocalypse(unveling) is the revelation of this same Mystery which is the gathering together of all things into one in Christ through the revelation of the children of God beginning and ending(Alpha Omega) with the Head, Jesus.

To me these metaphors, Body, Bride, Temple of living stones, Manchild are all begun and ended in Christ(Bridegroom, Head, Chief Cornerstone, Son), and none of them are really separate groups so much as revelations of various aspects of the purposes of God within His people and His workings in bringing them into one new man through this age- and it will not be fully manifested in this age but will be fully manifested in the Day of the Lord...."whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restitution of all things(Day of God) which God has spoken about through all the prophets since ancient times.

These, of course, are just my perceptions.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline marie glen

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 01:42:21 AM »


Absolutely!!  :iagree: But if you read the whole of REV 12, it's easy (imo anyway) to see the Manchild is Jesus.. Herod tried to devour Him as soon as He was born.. and then.. and then... etc. the rest of the chapter!!

..which is an insert, as is chapter 13, but it is still about the world and what occurs in and to the world.

How can anyone not see the two wings of an eagle given to the faith in order to sail / migrate to a new place? A second migration (in the chapter) safe from the FACE of the dragon/serpent for 3.5 modern divisions of time.. after which time a flood of filth (the face!) was vomited after it (the faith) in order to wash it away from off the earth? Isn't anybody else living in the same world I am? The characters in the bk of rev are around us -  as pretty as you please.. and not just pretty metaphor..

Is that all it is to us? what we will be? What is the purpose of all this? that we're going to reign with Christ? is that it? what is God teaching the whole entire universe??

So the people of God/believers are on the throne when satan is no longer allowed access to the heavens? really?

Okay, who are "her other offspring?"

     :shout:  :BangHead:  :tease:  :coffee2:
"If a stranger enters the room & all are talking in strange tongues, how will they understand?"

"Who is This!? That even the wind and the waves obey Him?" ~ Mt 8:27

Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2014, 01:53:00 AM »
Absolutely!!  :iagree: But if you read the whole of REV 12, it's easy (imo anyway) to see the Manchild is Jesus..

I agree, the manchild is Jesus, but Jesus has a body. Who is the body of the manchild? Who is the head of the manchild?

1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.


This is why the manchild is born from a woman who wears a crown of twelve stars, not just one star. Twelve tribes constitute the whole of Israel and all twelve are ONE in Christ.

Quote
Okay, who are "her other offspring?"

They are the seed of the woman....only because they are ONE with the manchild, within him, his body...

They look separate but they are one. Christ the firstfruit is where it starts. The whole of humanity is where it finishes. In between, there is the elect, born of the same woman...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 04:14:37 AM »
I just find Pentecost, not Acts 2 Pentecost, but the Pentecost denomination that has grown from some mighty spiritual and truthful happenings, to what is elaborated on today in religious circles... interesting it is to follow. And it is especially interesting when the Revelation of Jesus Christ is discerned. I find the book an illumination...... :dsunny: :Peace2:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 05:18:32 AM »


Absolutely!!  :iagree: But if you read the whole of REV 12, it's easy (imo anyway) to see the Manchild is Jesus.. Herod tried to devour Him as soon as He was born.. and then.. and then... etc. the rest of the chapter!!

..which is an insert, as is chapter 13, but it is still about the world and what occurs in and to the world.

How can anyone not see the two wings of an eagle given to the faith in order to sail / migrate to a new place? A second migration (in the chapter) safe from the FACE of the dragon/serpent for 3.5 modern divisions of time.. after which time a flood of filth (the face!) was vomited after it (the faith) in order to wash it away from off the earth? Isn't anybody else living in the same world I am? The characters in the bk of rev are around us -  as pretty as you please.. and not just pretty metaphor..

Is that all it is to us? what we will be? What is the purpose of all this? that we're going to reign with Christ? is that it? what is God teaching the whole entire universe??

So the people of God/believers are on the throne when satan is no longer allowed access to the heavens? really?

Okay, who are "her other offspring?"

     :shout:  :BangHead:  :tease:  :coffee2:

It s always easy to say, "How can anyone not see, what I see"......However, there are often layers of revelation in such things and the events on earth are often just manifestations of what is going on in the heavenlies.

In Rev 12, the woman stands on the moon(Israel, the law, refelcted glory). She is clothed with the sun(indwelling spirit, body as temple). The writer of Hebrews says our mother is "the heavenly Jerusalem from above, who is free". So, the scriptures themselves interpret the images of the apocalypse of John, as with all of the other scriptures.

For example, if you look at Acts 4(i think from memory around there lol) when Peter and James are imprisoned, the saints are interceding for them from the temple where they are all filled with the Spirit and the temple is shaken. Peter and James are released by an earthquake and an angel.

We see in revelations that the saints beneath the altar are in intercession and as incense arises and their prayer is heard there are lightnings and thunderings in the temple, "How long oh Lord until you judge" they pray....."Until the rest of your martyred brothers and sisters come in" they are told.

The image is so similar to Acts 4 (maybe it was acts 5 lol) but that is because it is a word picture of how the church operates when seated in the heavenly realms in Christ, in intercession, suffering for the testimony of Jesus.

This might not seem obvious to you, or maybe it is, but if you compare the OT writings about the temple and the holy place and the holy of holies, into which "we have a new and living way", it becomes more so. It appears to me that the history of the gospel as become myth and is gobbling up the revelation of the gospel like law- a limitation written in stone, no longer quick and active, no longer "new" in the "now".

The way I see it, Interpreting these images in a strictly historical basis could be a very limiting and superficial way of receiving the revelations sown within them,

The man-child is "in Christ" and Jesus is the head, of course, but as I wrote before(did you read it?) We are already caught up to the throne, seated with Christ in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, according to Paul. Could this not also be a layer of revelation for the church? It is for me also, perfectly obvious that it is
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Offline marie glen

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 06:44:25 AM »
(I apologize for some of what I am about to write) :pitiful: :Mcry:

..not if you read rev 12 as a whole

Why would things written straight out in scripture, then be written, again, as metaphor and mere symbolism in the Book of Revelation/unveiling?

Besides the heavenly in the Book of Revelation is told when it is "heavenly"/in the heavens..

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.. I will continue to try to communicate what I believe the Lord wants me to communicate about the vision as I believe He reveals it.. "happy those who hear and heed"

I do believe as the preacher said "The LORD made life simple but man has many inventions" complications - I do not believe UR needs any 'metaphor' (or great twistings) to support it, but I believe it does great damage to the message. I have thought that for a veRy long time.

p.s. - "under the altar" is the same as Abel's blood cried out to God... here (imo) it is metaphor  :laughing7:

I'm truly sorry, but I think this 'manchild' doctrine is of ego.. it's not aLL about us.. sorry..
"If a stranger enters the room & all are talking in strange tongues, how will they understand?"

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Offline Seth

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 07:50:08 AM »
Personally I believe that it is presumptuous for anyone to assume they have a crown before the race has been completed. So, I don't claim it. But I do know the elect are already chosen and Peter said for us to make our calling and election sure, because nobody really knows but God who his elect are until the race is finished. We pray, hope and run.

So for me it's not an ego thing. I no longer see Christ as simply an individual. I see him as the head of a body.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 06:52:47 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen, it's all about HIM, but HIM is a many-membered body now, and He is preparing a body to lay His head upon, ie. the elect. BUT the "elect" are ALSO HIM! He IS the remnant WITHIN the remnant, the TITHE! Christ IS the firstfruits offering! He is the manchild that is being birthed from within us, and pushed out of the womb that held us until the appointed time.

If you have been kicked out of the assembly (womb) where you were comfortable planting a garden for your bloodless offering (as they were teaching you to do), REJOICE, because you just became one with the tithe. They TITHED YOU, not knowing they were tithing Him in you.

Uh, Moses YOU go up on the mountain, it is too much for us, roflol.....and so off we go, to receive for the others, laying down our lives for them, one with the tithe. Again, I say REJOICE! It's ALL ABOUT HIM! Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Manchild.....symbol of what?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2014, 02:16:22 AM »
(I apologize for some of what I am about to write) :pitiful: :Mcry:

..not if you read rev 12 as a whole

Why would things written straight out in scripture, then be written, again, as metaphor and mere symbolism in the Book of Revelation/unveiling?

Besides the heavenly in the Book of Revelation is told when it is "heavenly"/in the heavens..

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.. I will continue to try to communicate what I believe the Lord wants me to communicate about the vision as I believe He reveals it.. "happy those who hear and heed"

I do believe as the preacher said "The LORD made life simple but man has many inventions" complications - I do not believe UR needs any 'metaphor' (or great twistings) to support it, but I believe it does great damage to the message. I have thought that for a veRy long time.

p.s. - "under the altar" is the same as Abel's blood cried out to God... here (imo) it is metaphor  :laughing7:

I'm truly sorry, but I think this 'manchild' doctrine is of ego.. it's not aLL about us.. sorry..

No need to apologize :o) We are just brothers and sisters discussing the scriptures. I can understand why you might think the 'manchild as the overcomers' is arrogance or elitism. The thing is, no arrogant elitist is an overcomer even if they claim to understand something about the manchild, because the overcomers are those who are humble, like Master, and pressing in to know Him. Jesus said, Unless a person pick up His cross daily and follow me, they cannot be my disciple.

In Rev 20 or 21 Jesus, "The one who overcomes wll inherit all things and will sit with me on my throne"(close i think from memory).

There is is again, caught up to the throne of God.

I hav been around awhile. The Sonship folks had a revelation, but then they did become arrogant and elitist and acted as tho they had possessed something that their works did not attest to. I disagreed with the arrogance and elitism, but I did not disagree with the interpretation that the manchild is a many member maanifestation under the headship of Christ because, imo, the scriptures bear witness to this in many places besides Rev 12.

But, how are we to have fellowship from our diverse backgrounds if we judge one another for our opinions? Maybe I am arrogant and elitist and don't kno it- but the Lord knows, and I will add, I don't think I am :o)

I think there are numerous verses that testify to the rewards awaitng the overcomers in Christ. They are the rewards that are the natural outworking of abiding in Him. They arent like a pot of gold at the end of some rainbow. They are the glory of bearing about, in clay vessels, the treasure of God's love and the joy of being fruitful ministers of the word of reconciliation.

Those who cherish such things are rarely arrogant and elitist for long, because as we know, the trials and tribs that are the fire which purifies our faith(Peter) and the scourging which every son receives from a loving and dutiful Father who is transforming us into the image of Christ- are sufficient to teach us the futility of such things.

The one who humbles themself will be exalted, the one who exalts themself will be humbled..... beautiful isnt it?

I like what you had to say Seth, No one has the crown before the race is finished, as Paul said in Phillipians, "Leaving those things which are behind....pressing in to know Him in the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffering....if by any means I might attain to the resurrection(anstasis- out-resurection) from the dead, not that I have already attained it......

Paul wasnt sure he had attained to it yet, who among us on the earth could possibly be certain that they had attained to anything yet?

"Paul also said, "If anyone thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to kno"...... For this reason I always hav an ear open in case the Lord wants to change or expand my understanding. 

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com