Author Topic: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?  (Read 4916 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #250 on: October 16, 2014, 07:33:22 AM »
Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.

Awesome.

 :thumbsup:

"He is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23)

Although, I believe that all Israel shall be saved "after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in" (Romans 11:25), which fulfills everything Christ said in his ministry, for the first shall be last and the last shall be first.



« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 07:39:45 AM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #251 on: October 16, 2014, 03:51:43 PM »
I explained all this stuff earlier.   :HeartThrob:

But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.

So there are two trees, the cultivated olive tree and the wild olive tree?  But both are olive trees.  Jews are the cultivated olive tree into which the wild olive tree, the gentiles, are grafted.


And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

--Romans 11:17


Romans 11:24
 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


So what do you think it means that both Jews and Gentiles are the olive tree?  What is the olive tree symbolic of?  What is the difference between the wild olive tree and the cultivated olive tree?

Offline rosered

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #252 on: October 16, 2014, 04:07:36 PM »

 DEAR MOLLY   ,   THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE OIL OF THE TWO OLIVE TREES AND WITNESSES   [old and new  testimonies   Holy Spirit &Truth   was in those all whom proclaimed   LIFE IN THE SPIRIT of Christ /anointed ONE   ] 
 the old   testifies of the coming of Jesus Christ the Light  of the world   for all   to see   and the  new is the fulfilling of the old  and making them new 

  and as ONE
 
 GOD      for all NATIONS      Israel & all other nations under ONE GOD    through Jesus Christ the Messiah .. 
  Sorry   to interfere with you both   carry on ........... :flowerred:

Offline Molly

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #253 on: October 16, 2014, 04:10:12 PM »
Seth, when is this prophecy in Amos going to happen or has it already happened, in your opinion?


13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.

14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.

15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.


--Amos 9


Offline Molly

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #254 on: October 16, 2014, 04:17:35 PM »

 DEAR MOLLY   ,   THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE OIL OF THE TWO OLIVE TREES AND WITNESSES   [old and new  testimonies   Holy Spirit &Truth   was in those all whom proclaimed   LIFE IN THE SPIRIT of Christ /anointed ONE   ] 
 the old   testifies of the coming of Jesus Christ the Light  of the world   for all   to see   and the  new is the fulfilling of the old  and making them new 

  and as ONE
 
 GOD      for all NATIONS      Israel & all other nations under ONE GOD    through Jesus Christ the Messiah .. 
  Sorry   to interfere with you both   carry on ........... :flowerred:

Hi Rose,

Does the wild olive tree have the oil?  I'm wondering if maybe only the cultivated tree has the oil.  What makes it cultivated?  The Father prunes it and shapes it.  Whereas the wild olive tree is on its own?  But the wild olive tree is the same tree, an olive tree.

Does only the cultivated tree have the holy root?  And, the wild olive tree is Lo-ammi?  Thus, the Jews as branches were broken off for us to be grafted in, and drink of the holy root,  but they can be re-grafted in easily at the end of the age, and they will be.
 
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
--Romans 11


2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

--John 15


This means Jesus was always the root of Israel.



  I am the Root and the Offspring of David

--Rev 22:16


That was my post you answered above.  I enjoyed your answer but it was a little over my head.  :winkgrin:   :friendstu:


« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:25:20 PM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #255 on: October 16, 2014, 05:21:25 PM »
Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.

Awesome.

 :thumbsup:

"He is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23)

Although, I believe that all Israel shall be saved "after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in" (Romans 11:25), which fulfills everything Christ said in his ministry, for the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

The "fulness of the Gentiles", to me, is the full compliment appointed to salvation in this age, at the end of which, or shortly after, the "epiphanea" and "parousia" of Messiah, all Israel shall be saved.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #256 on: October 16, 2014, 05:53:18 PM »
The way I see it, Paull uses the olive tree as a type of Israel in Romans, the cultivated tree having been planted in the law and the prophets for an age. The wild olive tree, the gentiles- being grafted into that heritage- the covenants and the promises, the oracles and the kingdom of Messiah, become a part of the nation/kingdom of priests.

The wild grafted in branches can be cut-off for arrogance- the original "cut-off" branches can be grafted back in by repentance and faith.

The cultivated olive tree will abide forever, until ALL are grafted in.



IMO, The "two olive trees" are a different type(prophetic code word), representing the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the whole earth(who they are is debatable among us I am sure, but in Zechariah's day it was Joshua and Zerrubabel).

These two types are not addressing the same thing. They are two different issues, imo.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #257 on: October 16, 2014, 06:19:42 PM »
The way I see it, Paull uses the olive tree as a type of Israel in Romans, the cultivated tree having been planted in the law and the prophets for an age. The wild olive tree, the gentiles- being grafted into that heritage- the covenants and the promises, the oracles and the kingdom of Messiah, become a part of the nation/kingdom of priests.

The wild grafted in branches can be cut-off for arrogance- the original "cut-off" branches can be grafted back in by repentance and faith.

The cultivated olive tree will abide forever, until ALL are grafted in.



IMO, The "two olive trees" are a different type(prophetic code word), representing the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the whole earth(who they are is debatable among us I am sure, but in Zechariah's day it was Joshua and Zerrubabel).

These two types are not addressing the same thing. They are two different issues, imo.

  Yes the symbolism      is amazing    bro John  and at times hard to grasp it  :thumbsup:

 
 Zerubbabel is: A stranger at Babylon, dispersion of confusion.

Hebrew the meaning of the name Joshua is: Jehovah is generous. Jehovah saves. In the Old Testament, Joshua was chosen to succeed Moses as leader of the Israelites for their journey to the Promised Land.


http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Zerubbabel.html#.VD_g3fldVeU

seeing it as sown in corruption and  raised up  incorruptible   in Jesus Christ        He is the ONE , HOLY ONE !
 

Offline Seth

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #258 on: October 16, 2014, 07:18:52 PM »
I explained all this stuff earlier.   :HeartThrob:

But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.

So there are two trees, the cultivated olive tree and the wild olive tree?  But both are olive trees.  Jews are the cultivated olive tree into which the wild olive tree, the gentiles, are grafted.


And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

--Romans 11:17


Romans 11:24
 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


So what do you think it means that both Jews and Gentiles are the olive tree?  What is the olive tree symbolic of?  What is the difference between the wild olive tree and the cultivated olive tree?

From what I have read about olive tree cultivation, the ordinary way to graft an olive tree is to actually take a good branch and graft it onto a wild tree in order for the wild tree to produce good fruit. However, in Romans 11 God reverses the process. He says that the wild branches are grafted onto a good tree. I think here is the reasoning Paul does this:

Romans 11
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;


Because on that tree, the root is holy. On the wild tree, not so much. The natural branches were broken off for unbelief, and due to their unbelief they produced no fruit in accordance with repentance:

Matthew 3
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


That judgment (the fire being figurative) is about being cut off. As individual trees, those Pharisees and Sadducees best to be producing fruit (in accordance with their baptism of repentance) because trees that do not are cut down and thrown into the "fire" (meaning cut off). So when Paul uses the image of grafting, he is showing that the gentiles once came from a bad root, a root by which their fruit was not as good as the cultivated tree can produce.

So when the natural branches were cut off of the cultivated tree for lacking good fruit, the wild branches were cut off of the unholy root and grafted onto a holy root of Israel to produce better fruit. In Romans 11 they are compared to branches, even if in another parable each individual is compared to a tree. Different uses of images to communicate different things.

There is only ONE good olive tree in the Romans 11 parable.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 07:22:42 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
« Reply #259 on: October 16, 2014, 08:02:49 PM »
Seth, when is this prophecy in Amos going to happen or has it already happened, in your opinion?


13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.

14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.

15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.


--Amos 9

In order to answer that question I have to point out that Amos along with all the other prophets, prophesied a Judgment upon ISRAEL, and then prophecied that Israel would be restored. To understand the process of restoration I believe we need to understand the concept of The Remnant of Israel. I will need to quote larger passages to see the context so I can talk about how I see it, staring with Romans 11 pre-70AD judgment of Israel.

Romans 11
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (that's important). Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;


Israel has been judged according to Paul here, and that is why at "the present time there is a remnant." There's no such thing as a remnant except that there is something to be a remainder of. That is why God has not rejected the people of Israel .... THAT HE FOREKNEW. That is when Paul immediately refers to himself, and Elijah and the 7,000 knees that did not bow to Ba'al. Those are examples of remnants. Not ALL Israel, but a REMNANT of Israel for "the present time." Yes, all Israel shall be saved, but "at the present time" there is only a remnant of Israel so that the Gentiles may come in.

Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


This is talking about the Sons of God, those who are grafted into "Israel is my first born son, and out of Egypt I called my son." (Hosea 11:1). So, getting to Amos 9:

Amos 9
8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,"
Declares the Lord.
9 "For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations
As grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a kernel will fall to the ground.
10 "All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, 'The calamity will not overtake or confront us.'
11 "In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,"

Declares the Lord who does this.


When God says that he will shake Israel with the nations in a sieve, it means he is going to put them together, and all the dross is going to pour through the sieve, but not one kernel (the foreknown remnant and the chosen Gentiles) will be lost. What's left in the sieve is God's chosen people. This prophecy, about a judgment upon Israel (just like how Paul interpreted Hosea), James uses to validate Peter's statements about the Jews receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a people of God. I know it's alot of text, but I believe it is important to show it, so the context will come through:

Acts 15
6 The apostles and the elders came together to ook into this matter (circumcision for the Gentiles). 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, (in Amos 9)

16 'After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the remnant of man may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,'
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.


According to James, Amos is being applied to what Peter said and they all agree. Amos 9 is prophesying about a time when the Gentiles would receive the Spirit and be called a people for his name, and MAKE NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile believers (they are all Jews according to the Spirit).

What does this have to do with returning to the land? Well, as Amos said, that God would not destroy ALL of Israel, and there is a remnant for a present time. The REMNANT, the leftovers, would enter into the land.

Hebrews 4
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.


That is what Amos has to do with Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit. The moment that the "natural branches" became counted for the seed of Ishmael and Hagar (Galatians 4), they had already been cast out of the land. That is why Revelation says that Christ was crucified in SODOM AND EGYPT. When the REMNANT returned and were grafted onto the tree so that the Gentiles could recieve the same, they returned because God counts his SON AS ISRAEL, and he counts believers as the seed.

That is why, in Galatians 4, Paul makes special note that the Law was given to Israel IN EGYPT. It means that the Jews who are under the Law are standing on Egyptian soil where they first received the Law, no matter where they think they are standing physically. But, the true Jerusalem is ABOVE, and she is still waiting for the natural branches to enter into her. So my answer is that the quoted Amos passage is fulfilled in Christ and has been fulfilled in Christ since day one.

This is why the prophecies say that Israel shall be "wiped off the face of the earth (Hb - adamos - land)". That's because Christ's kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. The events of 1948, to me, represent nothing more than Israel of the flesh leaving Sodom and Egypt and entering into more Sodom and Egypt where Christ was crucified. Those who believe in Jesus Christ are placed in heavenly places, because that is where Israel is today, with Christ, the firstborn son who IS Israel. Israel from below is wiped from face of the earth. There is only an Israel from above which the remnant and the Gentiles may enter into, and eventually everyone else will too.



« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 09:42:43 PM by Seth »