Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking

[Stephen]

John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me

Before a person can intelligently believe in Christ, he has to be aware of the guilt of his sin. He also must face the fact that God is righteous and that He judges sin. This is further defined in verse 9, "in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me." An unsaved person needs to realize that while he is a sinner, as all men are sinners, this constitutes only a part of his condemnation before God. The one sin that prevents him from entering into grace and favor with God is the sin of unbelief.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Phen... 

"And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves."

Amen Doc... here "phen" is found ADDING to Scripture, in his last-ditch effort to keep his head above the water, defiling the instruction given that we NOT ADD to the WORD of our Father:

It is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God

Heb 10:31 -- ...a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD...

Because "Phen" preaches FEAR, he SUBTRACTED the word "LIVING", and ADDED the word "ANGRY", in order to facilitate his doctrine of FEAR... which is BAD NEWS...

GOD is not ANGRY with us... HE LOVES the WORLD... He gave His SON for the WORLD because of that INFINITE and NEVER ENDING LOVE...

We are ALL in the hand of the POTTER -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:20 and we are FEARFULLY made!

Psalm 139:14-15 -- I will praise thee for I am FEARFULLY and WONDERFULLY made: MARVELOUS are thy works, and that my sould knoweth right well... my SUBSTANCE was not hid from thee... I was made IN SECRET, and curiously WROUGHT in the LOWEST parts of THE EARTH

Diligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you

More CONTRARY advice...  I will tell you again "phen", you shall continue to be EXPOSED -- BY the SCRIPTURES -- the longer you are here...

You preach of "working your way" into His GRACE... "diligently SEEK the Lord [and because of this you deduce]: He will save you"

He will SAVE YOU whether you SEEK Him or not... for the SHEPHERD is the one SEEKING the SHEEP... and MEN cannot "seek" of themselves...  GOD does the DRAWING [greek=DRAGGING] -- John 6:44 -- John 12:32

Luke 19:10 -- the SHEPHERD does the "seeking"

Rom 3:10-11 -- Psalms 14:1-3 -- As it is WRITTEN:  There is NONE "righteous" no, NOT ONE [not even "phen"]... There is NONE that UNDERSTANDETH [again, not even "phen"] there is NONE that SEEKETH after GOD [and again, not even "phen"]

If you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice

Where is this stated other than in YOUR WORDS "phen"?  We ALL shall give ACCOUNT, but GOD shall not REJECT anyone... He is our SAVIOR... and LOVES us ALL... [yes, even "phen"]

2 Cor 5:19-20 -- What part of NOT IMPUTING do you not understand, oh "understanding one"? -- What part of RECONCILING the WORLD do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?

This choice you must make

Sorry, but no one can make a "choice" which he/she is UNABLE to make:

John 6:44 & 65 -- What part of "no MAN ...CAN..." what part of "NO MAN -- CAN" do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?

Your quote of Romans below, only serves the agenda of the TRUTH, not YOUR agenda of FEAR...

No one is able to BELIEVE, until CHRIST AUTHORS that faith -- Heb 12:2

Might I address these verses a bit... Will you then BELIEVE -- "phen"?

Romans

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Phil 2:10-11 EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY tongue CONFESS...  What part of EVERY do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The JUST are "JUST", because GOD has MADE them such -- How did YOU become "just" -- "phen"?  Of yourself?  Did YOU put YOU in CHRIST?

Acts 2:47 --- GOD adds [the "just"] to the church, they don't "add" themselves...

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 5:6  Ungodliness?  ALL are UNGODLY, for that is who CHRIST died for "phen"... and His wrath IS come against us for THIS is the Lake of FIRE... not as you literally observe...

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those to whom GOD has lifted the veil, are those to whom God has SHOWN Himself unto... ISRAEL is blind in part (mostly) -- Rom 11:25 -- that the Gentiles can fully come in... and that the LAST (Gentiles) be FIRST and the FIRST be LAST (Jews) to know the SAVIOR -- Rom 11:26 -- ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED... even though MOST of ISRAEL has gone to the grave in UNBELIEF... that UNBELIEF is concluded by GOD upon ALL -- Rom 11:32 -- and only THOSE to whom He REVEALS Himself, shall that veil be lifted.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

No man has an excuse... for an excuse would excuse bad behavior... would excuse EVIL, SIN...  But the POTTER mars the clay amidst His hand -- Jer 18:4 -- and shapes the clay according to HIS pleasure and purpose, and the CLAY has no SAY-SO in the matter, especially an EXCUSE or an OBJECTION to its journey -- Rom 9:20-21

1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This is speaking of the RELIGIOUS, such as yourself, "phen" which are myriad... and which are called DECEIVERS -- Matt 24:5 -- and MANY is their number, not few... such as you find at TENTMAKER... MANY is the number they DECIEVE...

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

Just told you who they are, and what they do...

I will address your Revelation quotes in the next post... and though you shall foolishly object to those comments... you will continue to be EXPOSED while you are here...

And it shall be VIA the Scriptures that your nakedness is revealed... 

...willieH 

[Stephen]

WH,

Your intransigence is showing in your behavior and speech

A very poor representative of your preterism

One who lacks confidence in what they present and believe always has to belittle and convey disrespect toward those who think differently .... and then one becomes defensive .... and then offensive

The believer who is confident and unshaken in their faith in the Lord never has to do this

Seek the Lord and His truth and He will save you .... it is you that must choose to ask for His forgiveness, repent of your sin, and then to accept His offer of your salvation by His grace through faith in His ability and willingness to save you

There is no other way

[willieH]

willieH: Hi "phen" 

You propose to know prophecy, and are ignorant of even the simplest of SPIRITUAL matters... Failing to even KNOW the GOSPEL and what it IS, let alone take its GOOD NEWS to the WORLD...

Instead you opt for the NATURAL observations of Scripture which any ATHIEST concludes... proclaiming yourself LEARNED, ...and have become so steeped and absorbed in your folly that you cannot see what is right before your eyes...

Why did you LEAVE OUT your CARNAL vision of the HOLY SYMBOLISM in the Book of the REVEALING of the CHRIST?  You post VAST amounts of Scripture and expect that you notation of verses, somehow impresses others?

Why did you not comment on these verses, oh "learned one"?  Well... Maybe I'll give you an old musician's take so at least the readers shall have some vision of what these verses potentially mean, even though YOU abstained from expressing that meaning...  Cat gotchertongue? 

First, CHRONOLOGY is not appicable to this book for CHRONOLOGY is the method of FINITE observation... and this book is DEDICATED to the REVEALING of the ETERNAL WORD of GOD, JESUS CHRIST...

To BEGIN with The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, has nothing to do with predicting the END...

The book plainly identifies itself in its introductory verse... saying that it is SIGNIFIED (communication via SIGNS), and it discloses that the subject of the book is BOTH, simulataneously THE BEGINNING ...and... THE END... even though the subject of the book has NO BEGINNING or END...

This is where most readers of this writing, go in the ditch... for they will take its words and equate it to the NATURAL... and define it by TIME and both Beginnings and Endings... NEITHER are appicable to CHRIST... He, however IS the Beginning and Ending of ALL THINGS which HAVE these boundaries...

ALL things BEGIN in Him -- ALL things END in Him...

I will be first to admit that this book is deep and that I have not complete observation of its contents... but let's take a look at the verses you proposed but abstained from giving insight (maybe because you have none - eh?)

Since I have done some recent study on this portion, I will comment on it, and await your vision of Revelation 16 (that is if you are able to do other than just TYPE verses):

Revelation

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Ahh... the GWT... how big is it "phen"?  Where is it?  Do you know?  Where does a King's THRONE sit?  here's a few hints:

1 Cor 6:19 -- It sits in HIS TEMPLE...

Acts 7:48 -- God does not dwell in TEMPLES made by hands. Heaven is His Throne... and so "where" is Heaven, Phen?

1 Cor 3:16 -- Hmmm it is "where" He dwells is it not? How can He sit on a "throne" and dwell elsewhere? 

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Doya know what the "books" are "phen" or how they are "opened"?

We are the books Phen... Our LIVES lived before the watching EYE of YHVH God -- Psalms 139:8 -- in whom we LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING -- Acts 17:28

What were "written in the books"?  Our lives are FOREKNOWN... they do not have to transpire in TIME in order to be available to YHVH!  ALL your days were "written" before you took your first breath... and you cannot do or say ANYTHING that is not already WRITTEN of you in the "book" of your life...

ALL you do is foreordained... including this interaction between us... If you could recognize even an iota of what I am telling you, it will CHANGE your life... but that CHANGE is already written to, if indeed it were to take place... 

GOD JUDGES the things which are written in your BOOK... be they good or evil... and they are ALL made subject to FIRE  (as they are lived) -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

DEATH and HELL coughed up those within them eh?  Is that what you see "Phen"?  That some get a "coffee break" from HELL for a few seconds to get JUDGED?  Then get thrown back into the FIRE?  Tell me you know more than this, bro...

Just so happens, that DEATH and HADES which is the GRAVE (translated "hell" in many english translations)... release ALL that are within their "gates"... 

These 2 are the partnership of the state of DEATH...  Death is in the HOUSE of the GRAVE, and ALL those in the house of the GRAVE are DEAD...

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here is where it gets really interesting... Sentences can be restructured without changing meaning, but restructuring can and often does give greater insight... I am a novelist and songwriter as well as a musician, and as a "word" man, have become very aware of this method...

example:  An ISLAND is a body of LAND surrounded by water...
restructured:  A body of LAND surrounded by water is an ISLAND.

Keep in mind there is NO PUNCTUATION, verse or chapter designations in the original languages...

If one reads Rev 20:14 and reverses the order of the facts... it reveals what is being said...  This is the 2nd death:  death and hell (the grave) were cast into the Lake of FIRE.  This does not change the meaning of the verse, but it does reveal what is occuring within it... for when it is RE-REVERSED its meaning can be seen.

That the casting of DEATH and the GRAVE into the Lake of FIRE is the 2nd Death...

The GRAVE and DEATH are pivotal portions of THIS LIFE in this TIME realm... TIME works with EVIL which produces SIN which sends us to DEATH...

The next verse it the icing on the cake:

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is APPOINTED for men to DIE, then the JUDGMENT... Well what DEATH is DIED before the JUDGMENT?  For there are TWO deaths... what is the FIRST DEATH "Phen"?

CHRIST noted LIVING, breathing men as DEAD:  Matt 8:22 -- Luke 9:60  -- Let the DEAD bury their DEAD... The Scripture notes that IN ADAM all DIE -- there is no avoiding this, it is GOD's decree, so we are destined to DIE before we are BORN... BLOTTED OUT of the BOOK of LIFE... and CAST into the LAKE of FIRE to MEET that APPOINTMENT...

So each (which is ALL) unconverted soul is born DEAD in this life...

We are all CAST into this life... We do not "choose" this, it is GIVEN to be so by GOD!

We make NO CALLS and have NO CHOICE as to

(1) What era we are born
(2) what family we are born to
(3) what City, State, Country or neighborhood
(4) whether we are male or female
(5) what spiritual influences we will be subjected to
(6) what teachers, schools and friends, we will be influenced by
(7) what talents or lack thereof we will have
(8) what our race will be
(9) what we shall look like (pretty, ugly, or pretty ugly  )
(10) how tall or short we shall be
(11) what our mental capabilities will be
(12) color of eyes, hair --

GOD makes these decisions.  We are dealt the cards of life, and play them according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them...

ALL of these things contribute to our "choices" in life... we are completely affected by each and every thing on this list... and can and DO, affect our spiritual destiny.

This section of Revelation is speaking of ALL MEN being subject to FIRE -- Mark 9:49 -- and SALTED (preserved by it) -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- We LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING within GOD -- Acts 17:28 -- subject to the FIRE that HE IS... Consuming that which is WRITTEN in the books -- and preserving the CHRIST that is thereby revealed in each of us... in some much, in other little, but in ALL is found the SAVING presence of the Savior...

No "armaggedon" -- No "war" in the LITERAL terms, fought with guns & missiles...   That is the MOVIES... that is SCIENCE FICTION... the REAL war is that which YOU and I, face each day...

A SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC war which is recalled by Paul -- Rom 7:23 -- and the place of FIRE in which the GOLD of CHRIST was TRIED -- Rev 3:18

FIRE comes in many forms other than physical fire... there is fire in passion, pain, mental agony, loss, anger... yet those observing it in the WORD, confine it to PHYSICAL TORMENTING FIRE... failing to recognize that which is SPIRITUAL within their carnality and confinement to the flesh... and they "see" accordingly

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Phen... 

You are UNREPENTENT for falisfying the WORD of God -- proposing Him ANGRY where it is not stated... you WILL give account... doesn't matter to me.  It is in God's hands...That is your affair with Him, you WILL face Him...

You are quite wrong about me... If anything I am very confident in my beliefs... and like yourself, have been immersed in the WORD for 33+ years...

The biggest difference between us is the message we are compelled to bring... I bring His LOVE and call you a SON of GOD... You on the other hand wish me to worry about and FEAR the one who LOVES ME MOST... Please!

The words that God has given me to EXPOSE you and your LIES... has gotten under your skin, your conscience seared with the hot iron of His WORD... yet you are far to prideful to give in at this point.

You preach FEAR not the GOSPEL... and as promised, you shall know me to be a continual thorn in your side as long as you continue to post your carnal LIES on Tentmaker...

peace... 

...willieH 

[Beloved Servant]

Matthew 7:20 (New King James Version)

 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

[jabcat]

Good posts Willi.

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Romans 8;29,30,33

[legoman]

Yeah, it's just easier to stay humble.  You're more believable that way, if by chance you ever did have a change in perspective.  'Cause then you'll want to run out and tell everyone of your altered views and your absolute rejoicing in the Lord for the bigger picture, only to find faces looking at you as though "but you were just as sure about what you were saying before, how do you know you're even remotely right now??"  A lack of humility always needlessly hardens the hearts of others who hear someone lacking in that humility.  And then when you've really got a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire upon your head, then it takes so much longer and harder to get through -- as St. Paul learned the painfully, tearful hard way with trying to deal with Israel after his altered views of the Cross and Resurrection.  But if people know you doubt your own infallibility but are simply walking in the light you have at the time, then they'll ALWAYS listen, and your current hearers will often follow you through the transition, even if it winds up being "eventually."  'Cause they'll know, if you were grounded in humility that could only come from Christ and baring His yoke, that you weren't looking for something so far out when He did open your eyes.

Good thoughts, good reasons to stay humble.

[willieH]

willieH: >hi Phen<

As I said... the WORD shall reveal your LIES... which are present in EVERY post you have made (that I have read - not that I am at all inclined, to read them all!)

I am going to Scripturally address a few of your points below to display the FALLACY within them:

WH,

Your intransigence is showing in your behavior and speech

  ..."intransigence"?    Your INABILITY to communicate is SHOWING, "phen"... 

A very poor representative of your preterism

I have not stated that I am a "preterist"... it is YOU which have need of such labels... only further displaying that you know nothing of me...

One who lacks confidence in what they present and believe always has to belittle and convey disrespect toward those who think differently .... and then one becomes defensive .... and then offensive

Want a little "cheese" with that "WHINE", Phen? 

Just as the Pharisees took offense at CHRIST's words, ...As the bearer of DARKNESS, you take offense to the LIGHT when it shines your way... 

Calling the EXPOSURE of your LIES as "disrespect"... I have no RESPECT for LIES... and freely admit it... 

The believer who is confident and unshaken in their faith in the Lord never has to do this

Again... there is nothing that YOU, in your empty presentations that has even remotely given the slightest "shudder" or "reconsideration" to that which I believe... 

There is absolutely NO FRUIT in your posts... only the vague, overcomplicated and FEARFULLY presented distraction of the "end" coupled with the absence of the GOOD NEWS that you are COMMANDED as a representative of the Savior, to present...

Calling the GOOD NEWS [UR], ..."another Gospel"... and presenting nothing but ELEMENTS of ...FEARING an END to an ANGRY GOD... which is contrary to the content and makeup of LOVE which claims nothing of the sort -- 1 Cor 13 -- 1 John 4:18

The GOSPEL is PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20 -- and,

GOD is of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23

Seek the Lord and His truth and He will save you .... it is you that must choose to ask for His forgiveness, repent of your sin

You know not the Father, or you would KNOW that "REPENTENCE" comes forth from His leading, not some "illumination" emergent from yourself -- Rom 2:4

Furthermore, in all your "learning" you have failed to LEARN, ...HOW... FORGIVENESS actually, ...works! 

It is via YOUR FORGIVENESS of OTHERS that FORGIVENESS is obtained BY YOU -- Matt 6:14-15 --1 John 4:20 -- Thinking your "religiousness" is that which obtains the favor of FORGIVENESS from God... WHINING at Him, begging Him for it... Instead of PRACTICING that which you SEEK...

and then to accept His offer of your salvation by His grace through faith in His ability and willingness to save you

Where is it stated that I have to "accept" His "offer"?  He does not "offer" SALVATION!  He is the AUTHOR of it... It is EXCLUSIVELY accomplished BY HIM, completely ASIDE from the work or action of ANY MAN

Eph 2:8-9 -- do you BOAST of your SALVATION to me "Phen"?  Assuming that I have NOT found it?  How brash and uninformatively speculative of you!

As if YOU did something to gain it?  And if in fact, ...YOU did something to GAIN it... then YOU are your OWN SAVIOR, are you not? 

You type many Scriptures daily, without understanding of ANY of them... so sad! 

There is no other way

The only WAY to Salvation is via CHRIST not via "phen" and his recommendations -- John 14:6

No one here @ Tentmaker is "shaken" in their faith... You know nothing of the membership here, especially me (I can and WILL speak for myself)... Do you know anything of me other than that which I have revealed to you?

What is my favorite food?
Where was I born?
What musical performers are my favorites?
How tall am I?
What church was I brought up in?
How early do I rise usually?
What is my ancestry?
What day is my wedding anniversary?

Lets face it "phen"... your "knowledge" of me, is -- ah, ...NOTHING!  ...however GOD knows the answers to ALL these and more... which is WHY He noted we should not JUDGE... and it should be left to Him alone!

You instruct me to "seek the Lord" when I have already revealed to you that I have been doing so for 33+ years?  Are you somewhat slow?  Do you have trouble actually READING and COMPREHENDING the English language? 

This post is nothing more than additional nonsense and ILLOGICAL assumptions presented by the (un)"learned one",  ...Unable to answer ANY challenge,  ...UN--REPENTENT for ADDING to the WORD of GOD,    ...Ineffective in observation, ...Literally carnal in vision, ...sleeping instead of waking, 

...willieH