Author Topic: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking  (Read 7850 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2009, 04:28:22 AM »
[As for the rest, that's your interpretation of it.

Hallelujah, Doc, thanks for the reminder that what we have is our view, how we see it, how we understand it, in our opinion, what we believe.   We see through a glass darkly, that's why sharing, give-and-take is so important.  :thumbsup:.  God just may change my view on some things tomorrow...it'll be a lot easier for me if He doesn't have to knock me off my pedestal first.

Good, Martin.  Discussion, not lecture please.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 04:40:26 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2009, 04:39:15 AM »
I've reviewed his previous posts and haven't seen anything the least bit inappropriate thus far with the spirit in which Stephen is sharing.  It's mostly all stuff that I believed during the 80s and 90s -- practically word for word in some areas, until he goes annihilationist on us and teeters on the abusive about things he's very obviously never read enough of the forum or of the main website to more carefully consider.  He's preaching doctrines of men, but not the Scriptures, but as long as he's presenting the Scriptures themselves as he understands them, he has a right to his posts.  Although, as I said, most of what he shares has already been refuted on these very boards 75 times.  Annoying, but not abusive thus far, so hopefully nobody else will message me about him 'cause I'm keeping the boards as a place of open dialogue and anyone that's just too annoyed to engage him, simply ignore him.  However, show me genuine abusiveness on his part and the matter's already settled.  But if I banned folks over a difference of opinion, there'd be probably two people on these boards, so...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2009, 04:45:54 AM »
I agree, as long as it's discussion  (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations. 

I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately.  However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's.  I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard.  I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc.  But I believe a level of respect is expected.  Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my  :2c:.

P.S.  And for ALL OF US, I continue to remind and encourage we present as "in my opinion/as I understand it", etc.  Much different than that, and it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others; and personally, I'm highly more likely to skip over those posts and/or take what they say with a grain of salt.   :coffee2:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 05:02:26 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2009, 04:56:10 AM »
I agree, as long as it's discussion  (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations. 

I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately.  However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's.  I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard.  I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc.  But I believe a level of respect is expected.  Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my  :2c:.
You're right.  We'll just keep an eye on things and participate when we have the liberty of the Holy Spirit and when our flesh wouldn't be in the way.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2009, 04:59:19 AM »
 :tease:  Oh, wrong one...try this one  :thumbsup:.   :laughing7:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2009, 05:03:34 AM »
Sounds good...just messin' around there  :happy3:

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2009, 05:10:59 AM »
:tease:  Oh, wrong one...try this one  :thumbsup:.   :laughing7:
As long as things are light-hearted and aren't a personal crusade, but are being governed by the best of one's understanding of the Word and the Anointing on their lives, flowing from a very rich prayer life, I have zero problems with it.  I've had the Lord correct me more than once through my own preaching, so that's why my attitude is to always let folks share 'cause if the Holy Spirit is in there somewhere, He can do wonders in the heart while someone's sharing their best understanding of the Word at the time.  It was through my own preaching that I came into Postmillenialism WAY BEFORE I'd ever even heard of it.  I'd never run across it before, but boy, I sure did start googling about the book of Revelation and seeing what was online of info on various perspectives 'cause I wasn't sure if God had given me something unique that no one else had ever seen before, as He's done a time or two on other matters I can't discuss here, but could provide an avalanche of Scripture on, or whether it was just new to me.  And come to find out, I'd simply believed the dispensational premillenialist view out of having genuinely been exposed to nothing else, and because I erroneously believed such cookie cutting of Scripture, arbitrarily changing definitions to fit a theory, such as "this generation" as one example of many, gap theories that were nonexistent in the Scriptures between the resurrections and other things, etc.  I was much more shaken by my move into Postmillenialism than my move into UR, so I totally understand if Stephen were to have an [off of the boards] cussing fit over some of the stuff around here.  Had it not come to me in such a supernatural way, I might still be on the Left Behind publishing gravy train.  When I believed most of what Stephen believes, my attitude was the same as now of genuinely believing that I believed all of the Scriptures at face value.  I can relate, believe me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2009, 05:14:07 AM »
  I've had the Lord correct me more than once through my own preaching, so that's why my attitude is to always let folks share 'cause if the Holy Spirit is in there somewhere, He can do wonders in the heart while someone's sharing their best understanding of the Word at the time.  It was through my own preaching that I came into Postmillenialism WAY BEFORE I'd ever even heard of it. 

 :cloud9:  That's very true, Martin........ :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2009, 05:14:41 AM »
You're right, that's often how we learn...by sharing...either hearing ourself or someone else.  I was thinking earlier regarding the sharing as "IMO" thing...I think you're right, it's mosly the spirit/attitude, not if I necessarily preface my remarks with that every time.  Also, a little thought along these lines...God may show me/teach me some things differently tomorrow.  It will be a lot easier for me if He doesn't have to knock me off my pedestal first  :laughing7:.  And boy, have I ever been knocked off my (self-made) pedestal before!

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2009, 05:34:10 AM »
Yeah, it's just easier to stay humble.  You're more believable that way, if by chance you ever did have a change in perspective.  'Cause then you'll want to run out and tell everyone of your altered views and your absolute rejoicing in the Lord for the bigger picture, only to find faces looking at you as though "but you were just as sure about what you were saying before, how do you know you're even remotely right now??"  A lack of humility always needlessly hardens the hearts of others who hear someone lacking in that humility.  And then when you've really got a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire upon your head, then it takes so much longer and harder to get through -- as St. Paul learned the painfully, tearful hard way with trying to deal with Israel after his altered views of the Cross and Resurrection.  But if people know you doubt your own infallibility but are simply walking in the light you have at the time, then they'll ALWAYS listen, and your current hearers will often follow you through the transition, even if it winds up being "eventually."  'Cause they'll know, if you were grounded in humility that could only come from Christ and baring His yoke, that you weren't looking for something so far out when He did open your eyes.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2009, 05:37:47 AM »
Revelation 3:14-22 (New King James Version)

The Lukewarm Church
   
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[a] write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2009, 05:39:10 AM »
Revelation 3:14-22 (New King James Version)

The Lukewarm Church
   
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[a] write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'
Amen! :Sparkletooth:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2009, 06:59:21 AM »
But if I banned folks over a difference of opinion, there'd be probably two people on these boards, so...
I'd ban myself, 'cause I got several differences of opinion in my brain pan.  One that I've accepted as a paradox for some years, absolutely contradictory truths! which I will not elaborate on now, is;

Nobody's getting by with anything.

Everybody's getting by with everything.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2009, 07:01:51 AM »
yeah, even Hitler is saved!

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2009, 07:06:01 AM »
Martin,

I have studied all of these views and am convinced that the pre-millennial/dispensational approach is the correct one

However, I do not agree with a number of precepts currently held by some who follow this line of interpretation

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2009, 07:30:03 AM »
I agree, as long as it's discussion  (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations. 

I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately.  However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's.  I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard.  I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc.  But I believe a level of respect is expected.  Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my  :2c:.

P.S.  And for ALL OF US, I continue to remind and encourage we present as "in my opinion/as I understand it", etc.  Much different than that, and it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others; and personally, I'm highly more likely to skip over those posts and/or take what they say with a grain of salt.   :coffee2:
What you're saying is part of what concerns me: "discussion  (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations.I hope Stephen is diverted from coming across this camp-site, despising the people here along with what they're supposed to think like without ever getting to know them or what they actually believe, and deciding to make it his own publishing venue, heedlessly littering the grounds with the same handbills that we used to hand out...other people come here and we care what they find.  This is "a forum:  a public place or medium for discussion."  When someone makes it their own blogspace they're violating the fellowship around the Lord, His words, and our lives that this place for discussion represents.  I've never met Gary or knowingly interacted with him.  I admire him in many ways; but, I say that because it can be misrepresented, how we are inter-related.  Most of us seem to have come through a very sanctifying experience, setting us apart from anyone else as God made us to know things, how wrong and apostate much called church is and specially that Jesus really is the Savior of All!  Few of us here could be conned into following even a very good man.  We've been too much dealt with personally by the kurios, the ultimate authority!  The utter nonsense and weirdness of those that think people at tentmaker forum are a cult reveals how out of touch with reality some who put themselves up as judges of their neighbor are.

As far as you're saying "it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others" I think we recognize we can actually know some truth that others don't and they don't recognize either their error or our truth.  Trying to enlighten them can have the effect of driving them farther away into deeper darkness.

John 3:19-21 (CLV)...
19 Now this is the judging: that the light has come into the world, and men love the darkness rather than the light, for their acts were wicked.
20 For everyone who is committing bad things is hating the light and is not coming to the light, lest his acts may be exposed.
21 Now he who is doing the truth is coming to the light that his acts may be made manifest, for they have been wrought in God.

The answer to my frustration, which Stephen only represents as a type, a thing that the passage of time proves is my condition too, is that the veil between the holy and the holiest was inwrought with cherebim throughout.  We are told in Hebrews that rent veil is His flesh.  His flesh both reveals and hides.  We are His body, His flesh and bones (cp., Ep 5:30)  There is something in the flesh nature, many faced, representing the bios, the animal natures with burning sWORD working in every direction to keep the flesh man out, preventing its obtaining access to the tree of zoe life.  It is all by grace alone...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 07:46:23 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2009, 07:37:36 AM »
We are now given the wisdom to eat of the other tree.

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2009, 02:37:31 PM »
"We are now given the wisdom to eat of the other tree"

Which one do you eat?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2009, 07:34:38 PM »
What I find a little disheartening with these conversations is the claim is that things are just being shared out as the person sees them, but yet things get condemning when others share the fact that they see things differently.  It's greatly why I backed away for a while.  If we truly have the nature of Christ in us like we "think" we have, then why is there so much contention between one another? 

Stephen, we hold nothing against you personally, but you seem to be a bit prickly in your delivery and responses . . . were you really expecting to join the forum thinking that we're all going to convert?  I personally already have converted "from" the position you're in "to" the position I'm in and in my current place, Scripture has come alive in ways I've never imagined.  It's not through much study and learning . . . all though I've been down that road as well . .but it's through a personal experience.  You can quote all the Scriptures you want . . .it's as Willie mentioned before, you're not bringing anything new to the table.  Same goes for your demeanor, your responses are not new either. 

It's great that you put your views out there for everyone else to consider, it's just that this board is not really representive of your views.  You don't seem to be open at all to the rest of us as much as you feel we should be open to you.  There's no condemnation here, just my observance is all.  I don't want to war with you over these matters. 

There are different dimensions of understanding here . . .much of your views are embracing a spiritual truth being applied to a natural event . . .when we're really to be walking in the spirit in all things . . .see everything spiritually . .or in other words, take everything inwardly.  The earth dwellers you commented on earlier . . .I don't want to be an earth dweller because that's not my original state where I was created.  I am a spirit . . .and it's there where I choose to see these passages you keep throwing out there as your proof.  We're not to walk in proof, we're to walk in faith . . .faith and proof are at opposite ends of the spectrum and so are our perspectives.

You've said more than once we'll just and to agree to disagree and move on . . .which sounds fine on paper but truth be told, the reason why we disagree is because we are reading the Scriptures on different plains . . .so no matter what the topic, we're always going to be at odds . . .which again, brings me back to my original question . . .which is more important?  Doctrine?  Or relationship?

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2009, 12:13:30 AM »
Impossible to have one without the other martin

Offline willieH

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2009, 02:28:45 AM »
willieH: Hey "Phen"...  :happy3:

Your best buddy is back!  :friendstu:

Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever

So... CHRIST, according to you, FAILED in the mission that YHVH (who holds the FOREKNOWLEDGE of that entire mission) gave Him to accomplish:

John 3:16 --- God SO LOVED, the WORLD, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life...

and... reiterated by CHRIST while HE was here:

Luke 19:10  --- For the Son of man came to SEEK and to SAVE, that which was LOST.

(1) WHEAT can only become WHEAT by the work of GOD in that one... Otherwise,

(2) The WHEAT is making ITSELF -- WHEAT... and GOD is exempt from the process...

(apparently you pick option #2 here)

GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... (there are at least 10 references which state this), so if indeed GOD makes the WHEAT -- WHEAT... (which He does), then He is obligated by that (Scripturally repeated) IMPARTIALITY to make ALL -- WHEAT!

Also, in your vision of the process, ...you name FUTILITY and FOOLISHNESS in YHVH God... for sending His SON on a mission which HE KNEW beforehand, could and WOULD NOT be accomplished. :rolleye:

As well as compromising the WILL of YHVH -- 2 Peter 3:9, in that He SENT His SON, ...NOT to condemn -- John 3:17, yet you have BOTH enacting CONDEMNATION... by destroying LIVES which YHVH created...

NEGATIVITY is the paramount indicator in your "teaching" message Phen... and is sorrowfully DEVOID of any semblance of the GOSPEL (which IS the COMMANDED mission of men called by Him) Matt 28:19-20 -- Mark 16:15...  For the GOSPEL as I have already pointed out, is STRICTLY and COMPLETELY ...GOOD NEWS... [Euaggelion #G2098 -- Euaggelizo #G2097]

Thus far, you have presented nothing that can be remotely construed as GOOD NEWS... and worse, you are so hardened in the self-exaltation of your "teachings" and "knowledge",  ...that you are not even slightly  concerned with the dire elements of this BAD NEWS message you bring...

You deliver with the COLD and calculated intent to instill FEAR... instead of showing your belief in a COMPASSIONATE and WARM presentation... that might SAVE men, from that which you (mistakenly) believe is a FIRE that DESTROYS...  :sigh:

Pitiful...  :pitiful:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2009, 02:34:08 AM »
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

>Those who reject Him will perish for sure .... one needs to make sure that they are not on this list

Hebrews
10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 02:40:12 AM by Stephen »

Offline Doc

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2009, 02:45:22 AM »
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

>Those who reject Him will perish for sure .... one needs to make sure that they are not on this list

Hebrews
10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.




And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves.
 
Interesting that before you edited, you said it was a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, not the living God as you later corrected. Shows the true colors of what you really believe about Father.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM »
"And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves."

>It is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God

>Diligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you

>If you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice

>This choice you must make

Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

Revelation
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 03:05:16 AM by Stephen »

Offline Doc

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2009, 03:29:04 AM »


>It is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God

>Diligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you

>If you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice

>This choice you must make


Oh yeah, that's right, we can save ourselves...  :pointlaugh:  :pitiful:

What you've written here is an assertion that you cannot prove by scripture.
 
The first sentence is not even scripture, it's Jonathan Edwards.


Here's truth for you:

No one can come to the Father unless the Son draws (drags) him, and no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws (drags) him.

This leaves us with what choice?


You are a self-righteous and arrogant Pharisee, and if I get banned for saying it, so be it.


God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur