Author Topic: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking  (Read 7222 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »
And UR is the UTTER REFUTATION of gnosticism because gnosticism is still the Pharisaical exclusivity that isn't Biblical exclusivity of only through Christ Jesus, but tries to assert that there's some hidden knowledge through which one may attain personal whatever independent of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2009, 02:37:52 PM »
Sorry martin, but I see your trip of the UR a primary source of gnosticism with all of its trappings

The only thing I would agree with in the fabrication of UR gnosticism is that the scriptures taken in congruity and with correct understanding do not support eternal punishment .... the rest of the dogma is dangerously false

In fact, never ending "punishment" is extinction .... with no recourse .... ever ....  as the scriptures clearly convey

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2009, 03:19:27 PM »
 :cloud9: Awesome posts, Martin........ :goodpost: :Urock:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Nathan

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2009, 03:48:24 PM »
Stephen, I guess I'm confused as to your purpose here at tent.  It's clear that you hold none of the same views as the majority here . . . you are already pegging us with labels such as, false teachers, Gnosticism, mystics.  You're new here so I presume that you haven't read all the threads over the months to know . . . and I'm not saying this to boast, as far as I'm concerned, religious credentials are little more that a pile of dung, as Paul puts it . . .but just to give you a little more background, I pastor a church . .have been for 7 years . . .and I'm a self-proclaimed heretic . . . I find myself being more boastful over the latter part of that than the former anymore.

I don't disagree that studying the word has many benefits, so long as the reader pursues the revelational end of things rather than embracing the literal and moral and brushing off the spiritual.  By embracing the literal and moral, we become rigid in our stands . . .but truthfully, it's not light we're standing in as much as it is our knowledge about light.

Truth changes one's personality in such a way when there is an individual that challenges us with another point of view, even though we may not agree, love supercedes . .and I mean real love, not the claim of love . . . "that" is the nature of Christ.  He didn't instill the nature of doctrine in us . . .he instilled the nature of love so that we don't kill each other with our doctrines.

So . .. back to the original thought I started this with . . .why are you here?  Are you here to establish your doctrine on the board?  Or are you looking for relationship?  There's no such thing as having too many friends.  But at the same time, a clanging symbol does get a bit annoying after a while.

We are all at different places in our relationship with the Father.  We are all working out our own salvation . . .so there is seldom any mass of people anywhere that are in the same room of relationship.  Thus far, I disagree with your hardlined doctrines . .but that doesn't take away from the fact that you are not still God's kid.  No one is questioning your relationship with the Father.

But I for one do not choose to defend my relationship with the Father by proving to you my doctrine in the Father.  I believe in UR . . but if I'm wrong . .. nothing changes . .I still choose to pursue Christ.  And I tell others that if they think that because we're all going to end up at the same place in the end of all things, that they can then live however they wish, they are missing the entire point and purpose of the cross.

The purpose of UR for me is not to let people live how ever they choose to live in themselves, but it's to allow me to live freely in Christ.  His yoke is "easy" his burden is "light" . . .yet these claims that freedom only comes through much study in the Word . . .where does that leave the illiterate?  Are you then saying that only those who can read can be saved?

We understand that this approach of UR is pretty much in the face of traditional thinking . . .but we're also willing to get off the religious bandwagon and find a "personal" relationship with the Father . . .anything else is a corporate relationship . . . I was raised in that . .and it led me to this . .and I'm much more fulfilled in this than I ever was in that.

Blessings.

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2009, 07:24:40 PM »
Nathan,

"why are you here?"

>I could ask you the same question

>I am not judging you, but I do seriously question your current beliefs with regard to the Lord's Word ..... this all christian leaders must do for the sake of those engaged in questionable philosophies that do not line up with the scriptures

>My suggestion to you is that you should return to the Lord's Word and by pass all of the false teachers of pseudo christian movements that have developed ... there are many and they can be very misleading even to the extent of robbing one of their own salvation

>Those you may have been associated with in the past and their related teachings have obviously fallen short of your expectations .... I am aware of most all of them and have spent considerable time convincing members to move away .... primarily those that reflect obvious "cultish" behaviors

>Your current escape refuge is not scriptural for many reasons in my opinion and your continuation on the UR road is not the place to be ... you must deal with this yourself

>Seek the Lord and His truth from scripture alone and He will show it to you if your motives are acceptable to Him and you are willing to spend the time and effort on your part

>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse

>I might also add that all humans have no excuse to ignore the Creator and to seek Him .... even the deaf dumb and blind .... or the jungle savage

Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

>He will always make a way for those who seek .... and they will be saved
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 07:39:16 PM by Stephen »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2009, 07:29:37 PM »
I am looking foward to your seventh-thousand post.

Luke 9:5 (Young's Literal Translation)

and as many as may not receive you, going forth from that city, even the dust from your feet shake off, for a testimony against them.'
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 07:33:24 PM by Beloved Servant »

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2009, 07:36:44 PM »
It takes awhile for my feet to get dusty

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 07:38:38 PM »
>Seek the Lord and His truth from scripture alone and He will show it to you if your motives are acceptable to Him and you are willing to spend the time and effort on your part
Do you assume (most) people are UR followers because they do not read the Bible but the words of man?

Quote
>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse
No more Bible but reading your posts and following your teachings?

I have no problem with the fact that your interpretation of the Bible is different from all (vast majority) on this forum.
Reading your posts I think you are a serious studier of the Bible and your conclusions are honest.
But that last line applies to the vast majority on this forum.
So.... I find it unfair (not to say a bit insulting) to imply that people on this forum are wrong because they don't study the Bible.

Maybe they misunderstood things. But perhaps it's you that misunderstood things.

Just my  :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 07:41:42 PM »
And perhaps it is those you speak of who are in error

Only the Lord knows the score for sure

Salvation and eternity are serious considerations that all humans must deal with
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 07:43:47 PM by Stephen »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 07:48:19 PM »
Yes. That's why I wrote:
Quote
Maybe they misunderstood things.

It's just my opinion that a little open minded discussion can be fruitful.
Digging trenches from the start of a discussion usually is sign that neither side will learn anything.
Besides what high blood pressure is perhaps...  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 07:50:48 PM »
"It's just my opinion that a little open minded discussion can be fruitful"

>You should try this

>And one must never compromise the Lord's written Word for any reason

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 07:59:15 PM »
Quote
And one must never compromise the Lord's written Word for any reason

Point me to the post where I wrote or implied that.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 08:03:23 PM »
Romans 14 (King James Version)


 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

 15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


 16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

 19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

 20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 08:24:14 PM »
A wonderful reminder for us all there beloved servant . . .great words. 

Stephen . .. sigh . . .you wrote
>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse

After your 30 years of intense study . . . do you then conclude "you" understand all truth?  Is it no longer a possibility with you that perhaps there are other dimensions in Scripture that lead to whole other realms of truth and freedom in Christ? 

Your statement of your purpose was very telling . . .you are here to instruct . .you are not here to receive . .and thus our delimma.  For me, I see us as created beings that rely on the working body parts of other members . .thus, the reference to submitting one to another . . . yet your purpose seems to be missing that.

Which is more important to you?  Doctrine?  Or relationship?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 08:41:47 PM »
Nathan, I've asked that same question twice...interestingly, no answer. 

I will say for all those reading who may be wondering why the things of the past couple of days have been allowed to happen.  Everyone gets a chance to interact appropriately;  information on forum guidelines have been provided.  Another mod/admin may see it differently, but as far as I'm concerned, the long bodies of "teaching" posts will begin to be interrupted and deleted down to specific points that can be conversational dialogue.  Us mods can arm-wrestle over it behind the scenes  :laughing7:...just kidding, we work pretty well together.

The Apostle Paul said we look through a glass darkly.  If he felt that way, then I seriously doubt anyone of us posting on the internet see things any differently, holding complete understanding of all God has said. 

Things actually appear more reasonable/conversational today.  It's OK to see things differently, but that will be communicated appropriately, as the forum guidelines are for all.  

James.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 09:22:57 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2009, 09:19:02 PM »
Stephen,

I'm one of the ones that ET ALWAYS DID AND STILL makes perfect sense to, [because it's carnal thinking; annihilationism even works with my carnal mind,] but what TOTALLY MATTERS ISN'T what makes sense but what the Scriptures CLEARLY teach, and the Scriptures clearly declare something much more glorious -- the summation of all of Creation in Christ Jesus, and God ultimately being all in all -- rather than all in most or all in some or all in a few -- is the clear teaching of Scripture.  I would encourage you to get a book by Dr Harold Lovelace that I wish I'd had my 42 month very thorough investigation of UR because it lists in KJV about 350 passages of Scripture that either support UR or that clearly establish the Scriptural vocabulary that the Bible is emphatically teaching UR.  His book is attainable through his website at: http://www.haroldlovelace.com

In fact, never ending "punishment" is extinction .... with no recourse .... ever ....  as the scriptures clearly convey
Annihilationism was actually the perspective of the gnostics who believed that those that didn't attain to this hidden knowledge outside of Christ Jesus would perish utterly, and usually identifies someone as having the other heresies of either the JWs or the 7th Days that deny quite a few cardinal doctrines of the New Testament.  For your reconsideration of annihilation, have a look at a brief exchange between Russell Miller and A.E. Knoch at this link:

http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html

Furthermore, with regards to what you've said:

The opinion of the annihilation of the wicked, which has at different times been held by some, as a refuge from the doctrine of never-ending punishment, is not only opposed to the whole analogy of our regeneration, which shews how death and judgment are the only way of life and deliverance for a fallen creature, but also so directly contradicts what is said of "death" in Scripture, that it is difficult to conceive how it could ever have been accepted by believers. Even before the reason of the Cross is seen, the very letter of Scripture, one might have thought, would have kept men from concluding that the "death," "destruction," and "perishing," of the wicked means their non-existence or annihilation. For what is "death"? What is "destruction"? How are these words invariably used in Holy Scripture?

First, as to "death," are any of the varied deaths, which Scripture speaks of as incident to man, his non-existence or annihilation? Take as examples the deaths referred to by St. Paul , in the sixth, seventh, and eighth chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. We read, (chapt. vi. 7,) "He that is dead is freed from sin." Is this "death," which is freedom from sin, non-existence or annihilation? Again, where the Apostle says, (chapt. vii. 9,) "I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died,"—was this "death," wrought in him by the law, annihilation? Again, where he says, (chapt. viii. 6,) "To be carnally minded is death," is this death non-existence or annihilation? And again, when he says (chapt. viii. 38,) "Neither death nor life shall separate us," is the "death" here referred to annihilation? When Adam died on the day he sinned, (Gen. ii. 17,) was this annihilation? When his body died, and turned to dust, (Gen. v. 5,) was this annihilation? Is our "death in trespasses and sins," (Eph. ii. 1, 2,) annihilation? Is our "death to sin," (Rom. vi. 11,) annihilation? When the "corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies," (S. John xii. 24,) is it annihilated; or is St. Paul right in saying, (1 Cor. xv. 37,) "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die?" Do not these and similar uses of the word prove beyond all question, that whatever else these deaths may be, not one of them is non-existence or annihilation? On what grounds, I ask, are we to assign a sense to this particular death which confessedly the word "death" has not and cannot have elsewhere? Where is the proof that there is and can be no resurrection from the second death?

The truth is, death for man is simply an end to, and separation from, some given form of life which he has lived in. Death to God is separation from His world of light, by the destruction, through the lie of the serpent, of the divine life of light and love in us. Death to sin, the exact converse of this, is the separation from the world of darkness, by the destruction, through the truth, of the dark life of unbelief and self-love. The death wrought by the law is the end of, and separation from, our fallen carnal life of self-sufficiency; while what is commonly called death, namely the death of the body, is simply our separation from the outward world, in which we live, as partakers of its outward life, while we are in the body.

Once let us see that there are three worlds, each having its own life,--a light world, a dark world, and this outward seen world,--and then what is said in Scripture of the new birth, or of the varied deaths we pass through, becomes at once self-evident. For the only way into any world is by a birth into it, even as the only way out of any world is by a death to it. We have by sin died to God's light-world, to fall into and live in a spirit-world of darkness. We must by the truth, that is by Christ, die to this dark spirit-world, to return to live in God's light-world. The outward birth and death of the body, and its life, have only to do with the outward seen world.

For this reason it is that the word "destruction," as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, "Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men." Can "destruction" here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,) "He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone"; and again, (chapt. ix. 22,) "This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked." But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the "perfect" will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) "The world that then was perished." So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) "They shall perish, . . . and be changed." So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6;) that they shall be "destroyed" and "perish." But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, "them that perish," sometimes translated "the lost"; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15;) do we not know that these "lost," though they "perish," still exist, and exist both as "lost" ones and "saved" ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1;) "The righteous "perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart";--is this "perishing" non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men " (literally " they ," for the word " men " is not in the Original,) "may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;"—men are to be "confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah."

So as to the question, "Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?"—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the "losing" or "destruction" of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25;) that the way to "save our life," or "soul," is to "lose it," or "have it destroyed," in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?

These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (S. Matt. x. 39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see verse 28,) with those other well-known words, as to "fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell," which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that "destruction" must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats the self-same word, "destroy," (in our Authorized Version translated "lose"—it is the word apollumi, on which some build so much,) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is "that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. vi. 6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A "new man" is created in them, and the "old man" dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like "dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things"; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that "by death God destroys him that has the power of death." Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular form of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.

As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though "destroyed" are yet "saved." To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :" (S. Luke xix. 10.)

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2009, 02:21:14 AM »
Your view lacks comprehensive inclusion Martin .... you are skipping over this biblical fact

Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2009, 02:27:51 AM »
 :cloud9: Hi Stephen......may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you? Blessings to you.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Doc

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2009, 02:33:48 AM »
Your view lacks comprehensive inclusion Martin .... you are skipping over this biblical fact

Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever


And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2009, 03:04:17 AM »
"may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you?"

He already has C .... you should post you rendering

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2009, 03:08:54 AM »
 :cloud9: I already have  :winkgrin:  Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2009, 03:17:59 AM »
Doc,

"And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity"

>That's a new twist .... Revelation is the Lord's, not John's [read the first chapter]

..... and the Lord who has has given the final composite of His Word for sure

>The things that are ..... and still are today ..... chapters 1, 2, and 3

>And the things that shall be "hereafter" .... when He intervenes to bring His judgment and wrath of the tribulation period which is next on His schedule for the earth dwellers .... these things begin in chapter 4 and the scene switches back and forth from heaven to the earth as Revelation unfolds

>Then He will seek to destroy all national governments and rule the earth Himself for 1,000 years ..... then the judgment of all of the human dead who have and will refuse Him

....and then eternity

>Revelation presents this time lapse without a doubt

>Events over the past 2,000 years are not recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions

>The time of the end, all of the things written "hereafter", is still pending    
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 05:55:15 AM by Stephen »

Stephen

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2009, 03:20:55 AM »
C,

"I already have"

>Do it again on this thread so I can see it

Offline Doc

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2009, 03:26:22 AM »
Doc,

"And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity"

>That's a new twist .... Revelation is the Lord's, not John's [read the first chapter]

..... and the Lord who has has given the final composite of His Word fore sure

>The things that are ..... and still are today ..... chapters 1, 2, and 3

>And the things that shall be "hereafter" .... when He intervenes to bring His judgment and wrath of the tribulation period which is next on His schedule for the earth dwellers .... these things begin in chapter 4 and the scene switches back and forth from heaven to the earth as Revelation unfolds

>Then He will seek to destroy all national governments and rule the earth Himself for 1,000 years ..... then the judgment of all of the human dead who have and will refuse Him

....and then eternity

>Revelation presents this time lapse without a doubt

>Events over the past 2,000 years are not recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions

>The time of the end, all of the things written "hereafter", is still pending    

How about not putting words in my mouth? John received the revelation (from Christ, whose revelation it was), it wasn't "his" revelation, nor did I say it was.

As for the rest, that's your interpretation of it.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

martincisneros

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Re: Current Pre-Tribulational Thinking
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2009, 04:26:15 AM »
"may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you?"

He already has C .... you should post you rendering
Actually, that's one of the most studied, preached, taught passages in UR circles for centuries. :winkgrin:  Don't prematurely dismiss any book you find any recommendation to on these boards.  Read Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration" as well, available usually from http://www.abebooks.com and from google's book section.  But I've had four or five complaints already that you're being a bit too abusive, so you're on thin ice around here, though I'll fairly review every single post you've made for someone just taking you [and your different perspective] that way rather than taking anyone's word for it.  Different perspective is abundantly welcomed, and there's no such thing as a stupid question around here.  However, different spirits are never tolerated if you're not representing the Spirit of the Everlasting Gospel.