A tender aspect to the book of Revelation

[WhiteWings]

The laws of physics could still be there and the city simply be upheld by the Word of God, like everything else.

Sure. God has the power to do that. No arguing about that. I can't really explain why but I think God doesn't work that way.
Current physics either are present in the whole universe/creation or not at all.

The reason for no hunger is because the last couple of chapters of Revelation say that the trees will produce 12 crops of fruit every month.  To get a plant to be that fruitful, you're talking about no more carbon-14 and possibly the elimination of ultra violet light as well.  Isn't 12 crops of fruit every month a fresh crop about every two and a half days?

That still means people get hungry. Because of the harvests there is no starvation.
If there is no sun the UV will be gone too. That's very unlikely because UV is destructive light. And because the light is so special (Jesus) there is nothing destructive in it. IMO...
Without carbon-14 how can something grow? But we at least seem to agree that nature is changed in a big way. (?)

The sun, moon, stars, and planets will likely still be there because the last couple of chapters talk about outsiders that'll bring their glory and honor into it and the Spirit and Bride bidding people to come and take of the water of life freely.

 
Revelation 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Isaiah 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

To me personally the above two verses and the ones in my first post show that 'the sky' changes in a big way.

Outside of the city are some pretty shady characters, according to Revelation 22, so for their benefit and to avoid killing them the way that the ark killed someone in the Old Testament that tried to steady it, the glory of God will likely not extend very far beyond the city although I know that's absolute heresy for the traditional views of the New Earth. 

I don't care and would like to know more details on how you think about that.
Can the shady characters go into range of Gods glory and be saved?
It almost sounds like God glory is local. Isn't God just everywhere?

I know that some [without many experiences with the glory of God in Pentecostal settings] would wonder about whether the glory of God [turned up full blast] would still do that to a sinner that touched it (or that level of it) since we're no longer under the ministry of condemnation, but think of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.  Peter's body, in that one chapter in Acts, is a good foreshadowing of how intense the power of God can be on that future city to where people even getting within the distance of him of his shadow were being healed.  It's not that God did anything to slap Ananias and Sapphira.  That's just simply how pure that He is and His purity is deeply corrosive to any sin being in His Presence.  So, the Blood of Jesus had to become our righteousness.  But that's not yet the case for those that haven't embraced Him.

I think this partly answers my question just above. New Jerusalem is during the reign of Jesus, right?
So eventually everyone steps into the light, gets cured from sin and is 'under His feet'.
Is that how I should read it?

We've got examples in North America, Europe, and Asia that cities can get very, very, very big.

 
True. Just ignoring oceans/food/etc even now it's possible to build a city the size of the earth. But the height of the city is a major problem. Besides of graviation it would reach far beyond wher there is air to breath. If you say 'God proves' then the argument just stops 

You said that there would be no electromagnetism.  Yet a city that's that big that's emitting that much light and sound, and that has that many transparent metals and jewels would have to be emitting electromagnetism and light on every conceivable spectrum that you could think of as light and sound would pass through that metal and all of those gems.  The whole place would have to be behaving like a strobe light.  And without electromagnetism you can't have the plants working or any mortals on the planet.  What you've probably got is all of the forces of nature being brought to their proper levels so that everything's functioning at the right frequency and everything is complimenting everything else rather than chipping away at everything else as we have in the current eon of imbalance.

Doesn't electromagnetism mean there is always light, dark, shadow? But the city is 100% filled with light. So no magnetism. You are right that without electromagnetism thing can't 'work'.
I totally agree with that. From that I conclude God changed/removed the laws of physics as we know them right now.
How they become I don't know. I read those verses as giving hints the laws will change. You don't that's clear.
If things grow and be eat them they digest and that's decay. But we personally don't decay (=get older) so at least part of creation knows no more decay. Surely God can repair the decay in our bodies every second. No arguing about that.But I simply feel it doesn't work that way beacuse God created the laws of nature and troughout the Bible He never suspended/bent them. Surely He could have but didn't.

Christians within the city will likely be immortals,

If they need the harvest of those tree you mentioned they aren't immoratal. If they stop eating they get hungry and eventually die....?

but that's not 100% certain although that's inferred by many of our theologies with the idea that the immortality of Christians happens before or at the same time as the wicked are being judged by the Lake of Fire judgment.

 
Is that LoF just everything outside the city?
Or is it something like Sdom and Gommorah? Can't find it right now but there is a verse that seems to say there will be a worldwide 'rain of fire and brimstone like Sodom and Gommorah'

I'm seriously starting to question whether anyone is immortal on the New Earth besides Christ Jesus.  The word "immortality" is conspicuously missing for me in Revelation 20 when the resurrection of the just and unjust is taking place.

As I wrote; if you need to eat you aren't immortal. The ones outside teh city are evil. So there will still be killing going on.

Although I don't believe that anyone or that very many in that day would die from any type of diseases or accidents because the greatest possible healthcare will exist in that day.

I think it isn't possible to get sick because illness is always pain and sorrow. A broken leg isn't deadly but it gives tears that are wiped away...

[Taffy]

OOOOOOORRRR . . . .
The earth is restored to it's original state before the fall as it was in the garden and spirit becomes dominant over physical.  The New Jerusalem . .it's you.  Remember when Paul said we are "grafted in".  Spiritually, we are all Jews with renewed minds . . .which makes up a "new" Jerusalem. 

12,000 from every tribe . . . in God's pattern, when things are multiplied the number of themselves, it's speaking of entirety and completeness.  Remember the Scripture that states that the Holy Spirit was given as "earnest"?  A portion of the whole . . .a downpayment . . .it's just a fraction.

How many people were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit was poured out?  Why do you suppose it was important that we needed to know it was 120?  Unless God has a deeper message there . . .one that is connected to "tithe" of 12,000 maybe?  I mean if you think about it . . .if you did this with the US and said we're going to require 12,000 people from each state. . .that wouldn't be an honest assessment because each state is of a different size.  You want to take the population in Texas and take the same number from Vermont?

This again, is Jesus establishing a new government in his kingdom.  (12, the number for government).  And Scripture states that this "kingdom" does not come by observation, it is "within you."  You are the New Jerusalem . . .you are a gate of pearl . . .you are used to usher others into the kingdom of Christ.  The Sabbath.  Not about mental labor, all about spiritual rest.

Sorta Gets me....

All things MADE new In the NEW C.

New Heart, which is NOW, New MiND which IS NOW, new Tongue which was Given at PENTECOST SO ua could say that too is NOW, MADE straight NOT crooked, ..lots of NEW..but NEW JerusalemIS something we WAIT for.....

Nah.ALL THINGS MAde NEW is ""all things MADE NEW"...TIS NOW, as is the Book of Revelation.....

So you KINGS AND PRIESTS in HIM, welcome to NEW JERUSALEM....you are IT.
 

[Nathan]

YES AND AMEN !!!  THAT is a Truth I want to walk in CONTINUALLY.

[rosered]

 
 We agree  AMEN!! 
 
 GOD makes it possible NOW!

[Taffy]

 
 We agree  AMEN!! 
 
 GOD makes it possible NOW!

ya Know sis..we Know Christ talked In Parables to the The Multitude..., for mine twas the MOUNTAIN of Sinai, which was the Problem,.that which was the Shadow of the which IS the REALITY...

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

SEEMS our friend also HAd a problem with the Impossible ..the RICH MAN( of the LAW)

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 

GEE ALL THINGS are possible sis..BUT not with MEN( FLESH)
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


the problem with the YOUNG pharisee in Math 9..BUT ITS curable

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

[Molly]

 
 We agree  AMEN!! 
 
 GOD makes it possible NOW!

 

9 " Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
      Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
      Behold, your King is coming to you;
      He is just and having salvation,
      Lowly and riding on a donkey,
      A colt, the foal of a donkey.

--Zech 9


Behold, thy King cometh unto thee;

[Taffy]

 
 We agree  AMEN!! 
 
 GOD makes it possible NOW!

 

9 " Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
      Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
      Behold, your King is coming to you;
      He is just and having salvation,
      Lowly and riding on a donkey,
      A colt, the foal of a donkey.

--Zech 9

Indeed Molly, He came to CONQUER, but the Soul Of man,..THE truth WHICH would RISE within.as Paul says
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

To reveal is to UN VEIL what WAS already there..but hidden...

[Molly]

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

--2 Peter 1

[Taffy]

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

--2 Peter 1

Yes Molly , the FULNESS of the Reality Born a NEW , The borning of a NEW DAY,x8...The fulness of HIM IN US

[rosered]

 
  Had  a post  but it  ka blewied ! " poof" gone 
 
   hopefully  if God be willing it will come back  to remember
 
  Loving this spiritual  talk !!

[rosered]

 
 We agree  AMEN!! 
 
 GOD makes it possible NOW!

ya Know sis..we Know Christ talked In Parables to the The Multitude..., for mine twas the MOUNTAIN of Sinai, which was the Problem,.that which was the Shadow of the which IS the REALITY...

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

SEEMS our friend also HAd a problem with the Impossible ..the RICH MAN( of the LAW)

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 

GEE ALL THINGS are possible sis..BUT not with MEN( FLESH)
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


the problem with the YOUNG pharisee in Math 9..BUT ITS curable

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

  Yes Bro !!!
 
 it is in faith of what God through Jesus Christ can do within us , move mountains [kingdoms] the old and the new
    I was reading about Lazurus , whom Jesus loved    and come to raise him from the dead  after 4 days he stunk
 Jhn 11:39 Jesus said, Take YOU  away" the stone." Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
 
  on the 4th day of creation    the moon lesser light /knowledge
  that turns to blood / violence    and is the Law of moses the ministration of death
 
  but the Lord come  and    rolled the stone / vailed heart away  ! 

  and Larurus   being resurrected    Lives   
    and become a  child of Light / Knowledge  of the DAY
  i  noted that  the days are shortened for the elects sake the  works of light are shortened
 
  why days and not the nights ?
  so I thought of What Jesus said  here Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night comes, when no man can work.As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
 
 
   and  here it is !!  the answer I was looking for

 
 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
 Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


 Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

 Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

 the burnings/Light  of Christ/  seed  within our hearts   within our hearts !  and not the destruction od sodom and gommorah!!

[rosered]

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


 1Th 5:5 You  are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

[rosered]

Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

  bro the Knowledge /and love  of God is the True Light  that needs  no sun  or stars to rule it !
 
 Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.


 Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


 Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


 Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:


 Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:


 Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:


 Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

 Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


 Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

  I see it now! WOW!

[Nathan]

GREAT MESSAGE!!!
Colossians really jumps out here . .that one verse . . .
 Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:


I think this is the difference between those that claim things in Revelation are yet to happen and those that see it's already happened . . . in order to "see" it as finished, we must first see ourselves as "translated into the kingdom".  For the kingdom does not come by observation . . but it's WITHIN.  Which is how things are to be read . . .FROM WITHIN.  In other words . . .the destruction we assume is for the earth . . .FROM WITHIN I'm seeing it as "my" earth.  The flesh profiteth nothing . . .dwelling on the literal thinking isn't where the dominion is.  It's the stepping stone on the path to the dominion, but it's not the destination where dominion resides.

May the Kingdom COME where God's will IS DONE.

[Molly]

GREAT MESSAGE!!!
Colossians really jumps out here . .that one verse . . .
 Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:


I think this is the difference between those that claim things in Revelation are yet to happen and those that see it's already happened . . . in order to "see" it as finished, we must first see ourselves as "translated into the kingdom".  For the kingdom does not come by observation . . but it's WITHIN.  Which is how things are to be read . . .FROM WITHIN.  In other words . . .the destruction we assume is for the earth . . .FROM WITHIN I'm seeing it as "my" earth.  The flesh profiteth nothing . . .dwelling on the literal thinking isn't where the dominion is.  It's the stepping stone on the path to the dominion, but it's not the destination where dominion resides.

May the Kingdom COME where God's will IS DONE.

 "hath translated" us into the kingdom

G3179
μεθίστημι, μεθιστάνω
methistēmi methistanō
meth-is'-tay-mee, -is-tan'-o
From G3326 and G2476; (second form used at 1Co_13:2) to transfer, that is, carry away, depose or (figuratively) exchange, seduce: - put out, remove, translate, turn away.


That's an incredible word.  It has the sense of being carried, being passively taken from one place to another, almost like the popular conception of the 'rapture.'

His kingdom is in the place of eternity but it can be entered now.

We enter into eternal life as soon as we believe.


John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

[Taffy]

yous on a Roll sis ..Yehaaa!

so many places to take all this,..but in relation

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The power of Darkness did have it HOUR( time), I see Darkness being in relation to those who dwelt in the Shadow of It , The Ministry of Death

Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

 Luk 22:54 Then took they him, and led [him], and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off .


The message of Death was spoke ,as Is the Message Of Hope and LIFE ,Sorta which do you Taste and EAT THEREFOF

Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue:[/u] and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
  
Is Not the adversary a LIAR and Murderer , could   this also be spoke of those who were called the Children of Such

Is there too ,a relation with those who sat In moses seat , preaching Death,holding thePOWER of Darkness?

 Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Christ having Come to Destroy that power and the Tongue which Spoke it....mmm, Seems the Richman, the pharisee sorta Understood this too

Luke 6:24  Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and COOL MY TONGUE; for I am tormented in THIS FLAME.

Ever Notice Blessing and Cursing come from the same Tongue, this got nothing to do with foul language, its to do with Scripture...one shouldnt be DOUBLE minded speaking Both Law and Grace,..

To speak DEATH is to SPEAK from the GRAVE.....


James 3:6 the tongue is a FIRE, a world of iniquity:  

so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire OF HELL. (ya speak from it)

James 3:5 Even so the TONGUE is a little member, and BOASTETH great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

again who was it WHO boasted such GREAT THINGS, ? Again it speaks of those who PREACHED this ministry of DEATH

Rev 3:17 Because thou SAYEST, I am RICH, and INCREASED with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[/

tThat Tongue needs destruction, a RE-NEWED BY ALL THINGS being MADE NEW...back to New Jerusalem

Isaih 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and EVERY TONGUE THAT SHALL RISE AGAINST THEE IN JUDGEMENT THOU SHALT CONDEMN.[/u] This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is OF ME, saith the LORD.

we need new eyes of Understanding made SINGLE and surely a New Tongue to SPEAK LIFE!

Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have FOUGHT against Jerusalem; Their FLESH shall """consume away"""" WHILE THEY STAND UPON THEIR FEET, :idea:  and THEIR EYES SHALL CONSUME AWAY in their holes, and their TONGUE SHALL CONSUMED AWAY IN THEIR MOUTH.

Back to JAMES, sorta tells a different message to me than maybe we were taught....well scipture is LAW vGrace and Truth, should be No surprise really..

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,[/u] and able also to bridle the whole body.

Anyways Rosie..wheres Kim, she could speak pages on this subject,,tis her Thang..

[rosered]

 

  Hi Nate ,Molly and me ol matey Taff    AMEN!!  WOWZA 
 
  I felt the Spirit quicken  while reading in this whole tread! and I just love that   God is doing this !   
 my first thoughts when reading translated  , I thought of Enoch  being translated  and than  Molly puts up the verse that also come to my mind

 
 Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.  SAME WORDS OF   LIFE .... metatithēmi ! 
 
 

[Shadowland]

Wow people....I agree.........we are in the NOW!

Change is in the NOW! 

I believe God Puts the New Jerusalem in us NOW!  Spiritually!

I believe it is all Spiritual.......another dimension if you wish.....coming down into your re-newed mind!  Can you See the day there will be no more crying in your life...even before you die the 2nd death?  Can you be so close to God that you have no pain, and only Happiness.  I believe that Job did experience that.............and his trouble began when he started "thinking about it"  ......like what would He Do IF.  I think his fleshly mind started questioning his faith.  Whether he would remain faithful to God if he had things bad as the rest of the people or worse!  And His FAith Won.

So even then.....be careful of what you wish for.....because it will come True!  I made that mistake last year!

[Nathan]

It really is a rapturing of your mind.  The spirit "snatches up" your attention and you literally do get "carried away" as things begin to flow into, through, and out of you.  From your bellies shall flow rivers of LIVING water . .it brings life to others.  It's a fire in you that sparks in others and they begin to glow in the same light which consumes carnal thinking as it transforms us into kingdom-thinking people. 

There is an underlying secret in our carnal divide between soul and spirit that may be of interest to some . . .it comes from Goliath, who is the epitomy of the carnal mind.  We all know the story . . .the rantings, the threats, intimidations  . . .every morning (resurrection, rising of the Son) this guy would set the atmosphere for the rest of their day by challenging them to a fight.  Golliath convinced the army of Israel to fight on his terms.  No one could beat him on his terms . . .but David was on a whole other plain. 

And here's a little secret about your carnality . . .there are boundaries within your carnal nature that your ego doesn't want your mind to know about.  Imagine this setting actually being what goes on within man's mind.

1 Samuel 17
1Now the Philistines gathered together their armies to battle, and were gathered together at Shochoh, which belongeth to Judah, and pitched between Shochoh and Azekah, in Ephesdammim.  2And Saul and the men of Israel were gathered together, and pitched by the valley of Elah, and set the battle in array against the Philistines.  3And the Philistines stood on a mountain on the one side, and Israel stood on a mountain on the other side: and there was a valley between them.

On one mountain there is flesh, on the other, there is spirit . . .there is a valley inbetween with a stream flowing between the two.  There is this constant enmity going on, a battle between soul and spirit.  The Goliath in us puts up this front to intimidate us so not to choose to walk in the spirit.  But in those verses, there is a huge key that without the leading of the Spirit, the mind would not pick up on . .and that is the place where my flesh is in.  I call it M&M . . .because it's really hard to pronounce Ephesdammim.  The definition for this word illuminates the fact that there was no way Golliath was ever going to be able to advance on the army of Israel . . .he couldn't cross the stream . . .Ephesdammim literally means . .the edge of blood.  There was a blood line there that the carnal adversary could not cross.  David saw this through the spirit.

It was in the spirit that the smooth stones were shaped in . .the stream represents the spirit.  David crossed it to advance on Golliath, but Golliath could not cross it to advance on David.  You're carnality isn't as powerful as it portrays to be.  If we can look at it with spiritual eyes, we'd see that it's nothing but a nuisance at best.  But when we see it according to it's own standards . . . then we become overwhelmed by the size of the problem and forgets that we have been given power greater than any intimidating adversary, period.  Just gotta remember the bloodline.

[claypot]

Amen and amen Nathan.

Martin wrote.....

The book of Revelation is most definitely an order of events coming to our world......

The question is what is 'our world'? I see it as each person. Each person is a world and there are a myriad of worlds within even these worlds.

cp

[glenda]

I wrote a book about the book of revelation, it wasn't easy, though it's not very long. There's two or three things in the book of revelation which serve as locks, hiding some of the vision from us for a time (as it says in Daniel)..
 - the book, it seems to me, is both spiritual and literal.. it's simply apocalypse, the collapse of all things false.. things false simply must fall, they cannot endure forever.. Only God, being Perfect and Perfection, endures, has eternal life withinn himself.. the world man makes and has built, from babel tower (Babble On and On Tower) til it grows to fill the earth - Babylon was the first truly monetary kingdom.. in revelation it is a global economy and system. A global system of man/men/mankind, is bound to grow when man is not depending upon his Creator to solve mankind's problems and challenges.. The word used for babylon, when rendered harlot is the greek word "pornos" meaning "to sell" and alas mankind turns to a great seducing spirit of harlotry to sell it tons of products and luxuries, from fine cloths and ointments to the bodies and souls of men (male and female).. Divorced from God, and built upon untruth(s) babylon can only crash.. in one hour she crashes, in one day she burns (ie. fiery judgment/collapse) and great is the hail/debris of her falling.. the merchants who became rich from her will mourn and the kings of the earth who were in bed with her mourn.. With her harlotry and dazzle she led all the world astray, all seven hills/continents.
- the lesson of apocalypse is being deeply engraved on every heart, mind and psyche as to the knowing of good from evil, which is also Life from death, truth from lie. God is life, itself and perfection, when He endowind thinking ability/choice, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be' for to choose anything other than what God chooses is to become the opposite of Life/God/Perfection.. but since He opened that pandora's box and death/nonlife (rather than merely design robots) he built the rescue into all creation "from the foundation"/beginning of the world/creation.. this learning of good from evil, life from death is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. if there are to be rational creatures that is..