Author Topic: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation  (Read 16519 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2008, 07:51:09 AM »
A lot of people have mentioned what they consider to be the "is/was/will be" principle in the Scriptures and the fact that that's a principle unique to Him.  But it goes beyond that, because where He's at, that's where we're supposed to be.

Happy is he who is reading and those who are hearing the word of the prophecy, and who are keeping that which is written in it, for the era is near. Revelation 1:3 Concordant Literal New Testament

So often, we've been preoccupied with the fulfilling of events and haven't been paying attention to the different statements of the Scriptures that say that the time is near.  Not just the events are near, or their fulfillment, consummation, or whatever.  But the era is near.  The events get us to the era.  They're geographical points in space and time that point us towards the era being near.

The "era" is our inheritance, along with all of the various descriptions and compounds of the ages found in the Scriptures.  For Christ's Kingdom to have not been of that world that He spoke to, and yet to have simultaneously been "at hand" means that it was buried in the time demension.  He was leading people to a demension of time where they'd neither hunger nor thirst any more, but at the same time He'd jump on their tails and ours if any of us got all preoccupied with the loaves or the details of how the Kingdom realm was manifesting in their midst, because that preoccupation was a thief of time; the time that He was bringing them: the fullness of time, where all things were theirs'.  God in the fullness of time sent forth His Son, born of a woman....etc., as it says in Galatians.  It wasn't just a calendar date.  He had the Holy Spirit without measure:

Holy Spirit without measure = fullness of time.

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2008, 08:06:56 AM »
Quote
The ability to redeem time is a New Testament revelation.  Time should never "fly."  That's a property of the curse of the law (Deuteronomy 28).  God promised both length of days and long life.

You always have such interesting things to say.  I'd like to see more scripture regarding this.  I know that Jesus played games with space--disappearing and reappearing--did he also do things with time?  I guess Phillip translating to a different city had the effect of 'saving' time in travel.  

Back in my eastern philosophy days, I noted that a lot of those fellows played games with time--particularly with slowing it down.  So I did that for a while myself.  It does seem to work. Helps you to never be late for an appointment.   Anyone who has been in an accident or other threatening situation  knows that time automatically slows down and you have time to make decisions, if such are possible. Things happen in slow motion, allowing the brain plenty of time to think.  So there is clearly a mechanism in the human brain that allows for time to slow down.

My sense right now, however, is that time is speeding up.  Many people also say this to me--it's just flying by these days.  I think that making an effort to slow it down would be a good thing--give us more time to prepare for or change the future, which, if truth be told, is not looking particularly great to me at the moment--although recently I have been given more hope.

Having Time is always an advantage.  Those under time are under bondage.


30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


--Gal 4

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 08:13:03 AM by Molly »

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 10:16:13 PM »
26for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth -- till he may come; (1Corinthians 11:26 Young's Literal)

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. (1Corinthians 11:26 KJV)

26Therefore as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye shew forth the Lord's death, till he come. (1Corinthians 11:26 Wesley's New Testament 1755)

We've not been doing that.  People have not been seeing the Lord's death 'til He comes when we've had the Bread and the Cup, both through our lack of diligence and our lack of spending enough time with the Scriptures to know what this means, particularly as it regards our redemption and our inheritance of time itself.  And I realize that the Greek here can mean to announce, proclaim, or to signify, but it does definitely mean "to show."  His crucifixion is literally an ensignia on time itself that we're supposed to show others.

Revelation 10:6 in the KJV indicates an ending of time as we've known it, and the inauguration of a new time line in the verse after it:

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

While Revelation 10:6 in the Concordant Literal indicates an ending of the time of delay.  Too many of our lives have been a time of delay where various parts of the promises of God have been concerned for our lives.  But this says that there won't be a suspension any longer of the time line that we should have been on, in favor of the time line we've been on where in various areas of our lives we've just been spinning our wheels:

6 and swears by Him Who is living for the eons of the eons, Who creates heaven and that which is in it, and the earth and that which is in it, and the sea and that which is in it, that there will be no longer a time of delay,

And of course, "eons of eons" in this Concordant Literal translation of Revelation 10:6 has more to do with the vast expanse of the real estate of time that God is living for right now, rather than being any indication of Him living throughout the eons of eons.  Where is God? He's living for the eons of eons :Sparkletooth:

Yes, but where is God?  He's living for the eons of eons :Sparkletooth:

The eons of eons relate back to His filling all things, according to Ephesians 4:10.  Revelation 22:5 says about us:

...And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons.

We're filling the vast expanse of the eons of the eons with the reign of Christ that we're joint-heirs of.  While those that are tormented are tormented for the eons of the eons (Revelation 14:11, 19:3), meaning -- again -- not the duration, but the span of the existance of the real estate of this time line.  A part of their torment, since it's related to the "eons of the eons," is the revelation of how the righteous reign with Christ in laying down their lives for one another.  It's the sense of regret for having been self absorbed and not having locked on to the burden and yoke of Christ to do things His way.

6 And I perceived another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having an eonian evangel to bring to those situated on the earth, and to every...language..., (Revelation 14:6 Concordant Literal)

A messenger flying in mid-heaven, or in the second heaven, having a Gospel related to the age.  What would be an age pertaining to Great News to bring to those situated in every language, other than the lifting of those limitations and of every limitation from their lives through entering into the Blood of the eonian Covenant (Hebrews 13:20)?

Fullness of the Spirit is pretty much the equivalent of saying "eons of eons" in Scripture because of Ephesians 4:10:

10he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- (Ephesians 4:10 Young's Literal)

The all things that He fills is the "eons of eons," which is where everyone is at.  These are the same "eons of eons" throughout which (not "throughout which" in terms of duration but in terms of space) we're to bring glory to Him:

21 be adapting you to every good work to do His will, doing in us what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen! (Hebrews 13:21 Concordant Literal)

And pay attention to the word "Amen" in the 21st verse I've just mentioned because it follows the phrase "eons of eons" at least 2 or 3 times in the book of Revelation when it comes to the Lord's place in the "eons of eons."  It's not applied to Him each time He's spoken of in terms of the "eons of eons," though.  But that this happens 3 or 4 times in the Scriptures has got to be significant since "Amen" is one of the Names of Jesus in the Bible (Revelation 3:14).  "Amen" not only means "so be it!" but according to Revelation 3:14 it's also in the sense of Jesus being the public notary in what's being said between us and the Father.  He's the public notary, so of course He's handling the notarized document in the book of Revelation in terms of the scroll that has 7 seals.

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 10:44:10 PM »
OK, Martin--if you could run that by me again...much more slowly...lol...I didn't understand a word of it.

I understand this much:

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

--Rev 14



You know, I would just like to know when people are going to 'grow up' and start acting like decent human beings instead of the greedy, self absorbed, criminal behavior that seems to come so naturally to the human race.  Is there time for that to happen?


martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 11:30:01 PM »
A restatement of all that I've said thus far on this thread in slow motion :icon_jokercolor:



26for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth -- till he may come; (1Corinthians 11:26 Young's Literal)

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth Himself took our infirmities and bare our diseases and by His stripes ye were healed. For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth that you know and receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor at the Cross, that you through His poverty at the Cross would be made rich.  For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth that He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin, that we would be made the righteousness of God in Him. 

In other words, as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you're taking your stand of faith regarding the meaning of everything that He did for you at the Cross, until He comes and Performs it in your life.  It's not a matter of doing it until the Second Coming, if by chance that weren't for another thousand years.  When you take the Bread and the Cup, you bring Melchezedec on the scene, or the One with the same orders as Melchezedec to bless you as the possessor of heaven and earth.  The "until He comes" is more about until He makes all of these things good in your life rather than about an eschatological event.  That's the obvious sense, because in this context St. Paul is saying that through not rightly discerning the Bread and Cup many of you are sick and some of you have died.  But if we'd judge ourselves, we'd be chastened by the Lord (i.e. in whatever way this situation merits in our lives that there'd be a correction in the course of our lives) so that we wouldn't be judged with the world.

As far as the rest, we're not supposed to be victims of the ages.  We're supposed to be guiding the ages as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we partake of the Bread and Cup that we may also be glorified together with Him.  In a special way, Time is the Gospel.  The Blessing, the Cross, the resurrection, the Bread, the Cup, and our union with Him are the Gospel, but in a special sense these occur on/at the table of time.  The table prepared before us in the presence of our enemies is Time.  The ages correspond to every lash on the back of Jesus Christ, and in His Name we're supposed to redeem the time.

God is already out there.  Jesus Christ is already out there.  They're filling the eons of the eons.  To be seated together with Him in heavenly places is to be filling the eons of the eons.  The eons of the eons is the place of the negotiation of the surrender of all of our enemies and of their recovery and restoration from all of their crimes.  The eons of eons are the stage where we demonstrate all of the wonderful works of God by tongues and interpretation of tongues and by manifestation of mighty works of the Holy Spirit through our lives.  We should no longer think of time as a barrier in the same way as people in the 1400s and previously thought of the Atlantic Ocean as a barrier.

The Covenant, according to Scripture, is a Covenant pertaining to time.  It's a title deed to our time so that we can redeem the time.  The eonian evangel is as much an evangel to Time itself as it is to any other part of the Creation of God, because Time is a created thing.  Time has been Mystery Babylon that's been on fire ever since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.  The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is with all of the different strands of time that we redeem with the message of the Gospel and Christ's authority that He delegated to us after His resurrection.  If all power in heaven and on earth, along with all authority, has been given to Him, then it's been given to us as well since we're His joint-heirs.  So, we should fast and pray for time and preach to time as to any of the other creatures of God.

Jesus stands at the door of each man's heart and is knocking at the door.  The sound of the knock is conveyed or misdirected and unheard through time.  Time is the next to the last barrier and the next to the last enemy that must be placed under foot.  Nobody should make the mistake of saying that Time is the same thing as death, because a Gospel that's so detailed about the various increments of time that it's speaking to, and that's not afraid to speak of superstring and various quantum mysteries within it's pages, could have easily spoken up if Time itself were the last enemy.  Time has been a weeping child since the fall, that's been allowing the devil to victimize the rest of Creation.  Death would be greatly hindered if we were holding the reins of time much tighter and determining the strength of the flow of the glory of God through it via the Eonian Evangel that we've been given.

Since the literal Body and Blood of Jesus Christ stand both outside of, and yet permeate all of time and space at the same time, we need to witness to Time via our partaking of the Bread and the Cup to proclaim His death to Time (as well as ours through Him) until He comes to set Time free from it's bondage to the curse.  The curse has already been broken from even time itself, but we've not been diligent in our testimony to the entirety of Creation, including to Time himself. 

Time is more than water running out of our hands, or something that's passing that we have next to no control over.  According to math and science Time and Space are interchangeable.  Time is a property of Space.  Not just outer space.  They used to say that if you traveled far enough, fast enough, that there's the remote possibility of transcending time through the infinite mass that you'd achieve, and for other reasons.  So, Time is a type of real estate.  That means that the eons references in the Scriptures would have to be interpreted to meaning more than a cosmic stop watch, but would be a type of coordinates for the whole of Creation.  If you want to find your great, great, great grandparents, your two choices are heaven or coordinates in time.  As there's space for every purpose under heaven, the Scriptures assure us that there's time for every purpose under heaven.  Time is a big part of our inheritance.  It's one of the talents that we've been given in the parable of the talents.

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 08:45:00 AM »
Thanks, Martin.  I'll have to take this one step at a time--the first 'communion.'



14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

 15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.

 16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

 17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.

 18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

 19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

 20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

 21And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

 22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

 23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

 24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

--Gen 14


Strange sentence structure:

Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:


It almost sounds as if he's calling Abram possessor of heaven and earth....

20And blessed be the most high God,..


Then, Melchizedek blesses God.
 :mshock:

7 And without question, the person who has the power to give a blessing is greater than the one who is blessed.
--Hebrews 7   :mshock:

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 08:53:18 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2008, 09:12:25 AM »
1FOR THIS Melchizedek, king of Salem [and] priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he returned from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
    2And Abraham gave to him a tenth portion of all [the spoil]. He is primarily, as his name when translated indicates, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, which means king of peace.

    3Without [record of] father or mother or ancestral line, neither with beginning of days nor ending of life, but, resembling the Son of God, he continues to be a priest without interruption and without successor.

    4Now observe and consider how great [a personage] this was to whom even Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth [the topmost or the pick of the heap] of the spoils.

    5And it is true that those descendants of Levi who are charged with the priestly office are commanded in the Law to take tithes from the people--which means, from their brethren--though these have descended from Abraham.

    6But this person who has not their Levitical ancestry received tithes from Abraham [himself] and blessed him who possessed the promises [of God].

    7Yet it is beyond all contradiction that it is the lesser person who is blessed by the greater one.

    8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].

    9A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,

    10For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].

    11Now if perfection (a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper) had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood--for under it the people were given the Law--why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron?

    12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.

    13For the One of Whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line but] to another tribe, no member of which has officiated at the altar.

    14For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.

    15And this becomes more plainly evident when another Priest arises Who bears the likeness of Melchizedek,

    16Who has been constituted a Priest, not on the basis of a bodily legal requirement [an externally imposed command concerning His physical ancestry], but on the basis of the power of an endless and indestructible Life.

    17For it is witnessed of Him, You are a Priest forever after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek.

    18So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness--

    19For the Law never made anything perfect--but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.

    20And it was not without the taking of an oath [that Christ was made Priest],

    21For those who formerly became priests received their office without its being confirmed by the taking of an oath by God, but this One was designated and addressed and saluted with an oath, The Lord has sworn and will not regret it or change His mind, You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

    22In keeping with [the oath's greater strength and force], Jesus has become the Guarantee of a better (stronger) agreement [a more excellent and more advantageous covenant].

    23[Again, the former successive line of priests] was made up of many, because they were each prevented by death from continuing [perpetually in office];

    24But He holds His priesthood unchangeably, because He lives on forever.

    25Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity) those who come to God through Him, since He is always living to make petition to God and intercede with Him and intervene for them.

    26[Here is] the High Priest [perfectly adapted] to our needs, as was fitting--holy, blameless, unstained by sin, separated from sinners, and exalted higher than the heavens.

    27He has no day by day necessity, as [do each of these other] high priests, to offer sacrifice first of all for his own [personal] sins and then for those of the people, because He [met all the requirements] once for all when He brought Himself [as a sacrifice] which He offered up.

    28For the Law sets up men in their weakness [frail, sinful, dying human beings] as high priests, but the word of [God's] oath, which [was spoken later] after the institution of the Law, [chooses and appoints as priest One Whose appointment is complete and permanent], a Son Who has been made perfect forever.

--Hebrews 7


John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 09:19:16 AM by Molly »

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2008, 09:13:39 AM »
Abraham is the possessor of heaven and earth.  And we're blessed with faithful Abraham, according to Galatians 3, so we sit with Christ in heavenly places.  God was both making Abraham heir of heaven and earth out of His own relationship with Abraham, and He was establishing the lineage of the prophets for them to be able to call things that be not as though they were.  God was yanking away from the devil by promise, what the devil had stolen from Adam in the Garden of Eden by being a fast talkin' con.  I won't get another UFO thread started, but when He was telling Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven, this Melchizedec Blessing seems to take any sense of symbolism out of the comment. 

He's been promising us the heavens and the earth every step of the way, according to Psalm 8, other passages, and questionable noncanonical texts that for whatever flaws they have will still draw attention to this level of Blessing, authority, and inheritance.  It's the same Blessing that He spoke over Adam and Eve being respoken every step along the way so that it reaches the Last Adam, all of us, and it's consummation in the purposes of God that span all of the ages.  Because it's the same Word of the Blessing that became flesh, dwelt among us, and bruised the headship of the Adversary.

Whether we're talking life forms present or past in God's Creation, or life forms yet to be Created, all things are ours because of this Blessing so that we'd become the Blessing and benefit to all of them.  All the New Covenant is, is the Abrahamic Covenant with the Mosaic Law having been fulfilled, sin and sacrifices having been taken away, and our having already been redeemed from the curse, according to Galatians 3.  And then as I was saying, the dominion over time so that we are the Blessing to all of the families of the earth in turning them away from their sins and building them up in their inheritance, according to the book of Acts.

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2008, 09:31:13 AM »
1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?

    2Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]

    3Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?

    4Have you suffered so many things and experienced so much all for nothing (to no purpose)--if it really is to no purpose and in vain?

    5Then does He Who supplies you with His marvelous [Holy] Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on [the grounds of your doing] what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the message that you heard?

    6Thus Abraham believed in and adhered to and trusted in and relied on God, and it was reckoned and placed to his account and credited as righteousness (as conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action).

    7Know and understand that it is [really] the people [who live] by faith who are [the true] sons of Abraham.

    8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify (declare righteous, put in right standing with Himself) the Gentiles in consequence of faith, proclaimed the Gospel [foretelling the glad tidings of a Savior long beforehand] to Abraham in the promise, saying, In you shall all the nations [of the earth] be blessed.

    9So then, those who are people of faith are blessed and made happy and favored by God [as partners in fellowship] with the believing and trusting Abraham.

    10And all who depend on the Law [who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals] are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed (accursed, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment) be everyone who does not continue to abide (live and remain) by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law and to practice them.

    11Now it is evident that no person is justified (declared righteous and brought into right standing with God) through the Law, for the Scripture says, The man in right standing with God [the just, the righteous] shall live by and out of faith and he who through and by faith is declared righteous and in right standing with God shall live.

    12But the Law does not rest on faith [does not require faith, has nothing to do with faith], for it itself says, He who does them [the things prescribed by the Law] shall live by them [not by faith].(E)

    13Christ purchased our freedom [redeeming us] from the curse (doom) of the Law [and its condemnation] by [Himself] becoming a curse for us, for it is written [in the Scriptures], Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (is crucified);

    14To the end that through [their receiving] Christ Jesus, the blessing [promised] to Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, so that we through faith might [all] receive [the realization of] the promise of the [Holy] Spirit.

    15To speak in terms of human relations, brethren, [if] even a man makes a last will and testament (a merely human covenant), no one sets it aside or makes it void or adds to it when once it has been drawn up and signed (ratified, confirmed).

    16Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).

    17This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

    18For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.

    19What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].

    20Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

    21Is the Law then contrary and opposed to the promises of God? Of course not! For if a Law had been given which could confer [spiritual] life, then righteousness and right standing with God would certainly have come by Law.

    22But the Scriptures [picture all mankind as sinners] shut up and imprisoned by sin, so that [the inheritance, blessing] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ (the Messiah) might be given (released, delivered, and committed) to [all] those who believe [who adhere to and trust in and rely on Him].

    23Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed),

    24So that the Law served [a][to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.

    25But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).

    26For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

    27For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.

    28There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

    --Galatians 3


wow.  The promise came before the law--therefore it is the better covenant, superceding the law. :mshock:

This promise to Abraham IS the law--the greater covenant-- which Jesus fulfills. :mshock:

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 09:54:26 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2008, 09:45:45 AM »
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

 2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

 3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

 4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

 5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

 6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

 7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

 8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

 9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

--Psalm 8



12For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].

--1Cor 13

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »
1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians!
It's odd how I'd have to ban someone from the forum for using the same language on this forum about one or more of it's members if the occasion ever came up, yet St. Paul goes further a chapter or two later and saying "if a little cutting is profitable to the soul, JUST WACK IT OFF COMPLETELY AND REALLY SECURE YOUR NAME BEING IN HEBREWS 11!!" :icon_jokercolor: :dontknow:

But, because of how discussion boards are put together, what their intent is, and what's most fruitful about their existance, it must also be remembered that St. Paul WOULDN'T HAVE DARED to have SCREAMED such things on Mars Hill or in a follow-up letter to them :laughing7:

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2008, 09:49:55 AM »
There has always only been ONE covenant.  :banging head:

 :mshock:

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2008, 10:00:08 AM »
So until Jesus fulfilled the everlasting covenant with Abraham, we couldn't be close to God because we were shut up under the law.



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

--Hebrews 4


"new"  [covenant]

G3501
νέος, νεώτερος
neos  neōteros
neh'-os, neh-o'-ter-os
A primary word, including the comparative (second form); "new", that is, (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively regenerate: - new, young.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 10:08:49 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2008, 10:32:54 AM »
OK, I think I'm starting to understand how communion, the cup and bread showing his death [and our death in him]--kicks us into timelessness, because we have already died [with him,] and therefore we have  perpetual youth and are (regenerate, fresh, alive) in Christ, the living God, allowing us to come into perfection through relationship with him in the life of the Spirit.


John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


--Hebrews 10


But, is this symbolic?  Or are we literally changing physically into his flesh--like Roy says, a body you have prepared for me...

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2008, 04:30:52 PM »
In reading other threads, along with this one, it appears that there are so many different opinons on every little Word written in Scripture.  There are so many different translations, there are so many different attitudes and conclusions.  If ever there was a true mystery, it, to me, would be this . . . how is it that if we are all walking in the same spirit, we can never come to understand Truth as "one" body?  It's almost like, because my perception is different, I then, exercise my right to reject others opinions.

A comment was made that it's not about right and wrong, but what is correct and what isn't . . .even THAT doesn't make sense to be because it appears to be saying the same thing. 

What if, we've misunderstood our own responsibilities?  In one passage, we're told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling . . .yet in other passages, people often seem to become aggressive in their "corrections" with another because they feel Scripture supports the idea that I'm to police everyone else on their beliefs.

It just seems that there are some who are quick to "correct" others in their understanding, are the same that rebuke another when they themselves come under a correction . . .and in the end, it becomes either a division, an offense, or worse. 

Some of these discussions are really rewarding  . . . some are frustrating as we beat our heads against each other as we admit our understanding is finite . . . it's limited, but if we really believe that, then how is it that there is so much sparring going on over word definitions and translations?

To me, this is really the reason why I stated that the Bible we have is not the inspired word of God . . .it's merely a translation of it.  I have been hit from many different angles against this thought . . not just on the forum, but from other pastors and people.  But the more I read from some of your comments . . like the information that Martin puts out about some of the history of what all transpired when the cannon was beginning to take form and how much that was actually translated also was influenced by the biasness of the translators . . .it only reinforces this idea that no matter which Bible I read from . . .currently, the Message Translation is a favorite . .but terrible when doing word studies . .but no matter what Bible I read, it's a translation of the original.

And . . .say we all learned Greek and Hebrew and had the original writings in front of us . . .even this . to me . . .would not guarantee our rightness of things.  The Pharisees and Saducees were the most knowledgable men on the earth.  The are of one of the elite few that actually did have the original texts . . . and where did it get them?  They took that which was to reveal light and truth, and became worse off than those who had no knowledge at all.

I would much rather teach an individual with absolutely no background of religion about the things of the kingdom, than someone who just came through 8 years of college or 20 years of church.  Religion blinds us from truth . . . we tend to put ourselves (me included) on pedestals with our knowledge and we love to spar with others so as to show off how much we know about things.  If we are truly concerned about the wellbeing of another, then why the stinging rebukes when our words are put into question?

My personal opinion as to why there are so many translations is the same as why there are so many denominations.  Even when the King James is the most accepted translation, there are still clashing contrasts between the conclusions of one group against another.  And again, to me, it boils down to the Spirit.  You can't mix spirit with carnality.  You can't explain spiritual truth through natural reasoning.

The kingdom of God does not come through observation, it's within every one of us.  It manifests differently in every one of us.  And it's purpose is not to bring correctness or rightness.  It's purpose  . .to me . .is to bring freedom and liberty. 

Here are two truths . . .
No matter how accurate your translation is, you could still be blind to what Truth is all about.

and second . .
No matter how "inaccurate" your translation is, Truth can always be seen.

It's not the translation that reveals Truth . .it's the Spirit that inspired it in the first place.

Jesus said his words are "spirit" and life.  Life is encouragement, it is optimistic, it is blind to failures and splitting hairs . . . Truth is not cold and hard as stone.  It's not unbending.  It can very much be illogical.  And I also believe it's something to be accepted in faith and not intended to be grasped, controlled, and broken down with human reasoning.  It's not knowledge that pleases God . . it's faith.  Sure, knowledge plays a role.  But what good is knowledge if all I do is use it as a weapon rather than an instrument of worship.

Adam and Eve desired after and acheived knowledge, but all it did for them was reveal their nakedness.  Many of our discussions seem to be an attempt to simply uncover, or reveal the nakedness of each other.  How does this bring glory?  How does this build up the body?  Edify one another?  What actual good does the Bible have if all I use it for is to tell you how "incorrect" you are?

My knowledge on perpetual motion is limited.  But my desire to set the captives free is limitless.  The only way I can pursue this is by walking in spiritual truth rather than natural reasoning. 

Just a thought is all.  Nothing more.

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2008, 05:08:24 PM »
Quote
how is it that if we are all walking in the same spirit, we can never come to understand Truth as "one" body?  It's almost like, because my perception is different, I then, exercise my right to reject others opinions.

I think it is because it is the 'living' word.  Thus, if you spend a lot of time in the Bible, it is like sitting down with Jesus and having a discussion--but only at the level that you are currently at.  So, like you would have a different conversation with a CEO than with a housewife (both of whom have very pressing, but different, problems) or with a ten year old boy and an 85 year old woman (who are at different stages of life), it looks different to people who are at different places in their lives.  That's why it often does not work to try to force your views on others, even though we all do it.  It's a blessing when we can share what we see with others.

So, if he's bringing us all to perfection within relationship to him--in his own timing--then all that is important is the relationship with him.  The real tragedy is those who have no relationship with Christ, but with a pastor who is just serving his own ends of wealth, power, or popularity, or a church that is not about freedom but about control--which is where I think many Christians find themselves.

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2008, 06:22:22 PM »
Absolutely Molly, we are all living toward the same goal, to achieve the same prize, but we are all at different places in our relationships.  You can't ask an infant to eat a pickle and you don't expect an adult to eat strained carrots.  And in the same light, the adult shouldn't rebuke the child for being a child.  You ever go to a senior citizens center with a child?  That one child lights up the whole place.  There's something about the innocense of a child that sparks life into an adult. 

Having twin sons that are 3 1/2, nothing brings life to our house more than when one makes the other go into a belly laugh . .they find the strangest things to amuse them and it's usually involving destruction of something . .but when they get into the laughter mode, it's contagious.

I would think this is the same spiritually. The youth of one should bring life to another.  A part of that would be accepting what you're inferring Molly, to realize that you see what you do because that's where you are in God.  I can share with you what I see and if you don't see it . .that's perfectly OK.  And if you do . .all the better.  But not one of us is in the exact same place in Christ as the other.  But yet we are of the same body. 

Offline Taffy

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2008, 06:39:59 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
  But not one of us is in the exact same place in Christ as the other.  But yet we are of the same body. 

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

joyful1

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2008, 07:29:46 PM »
 :icon_flower:  
:goodpost: Molly!
:goodpost: Nathan!
:goodpost: Taffy!

Regardless of the translations we use or teachings that we've acquired, it seems to me that, the Spirit of Truth is able to teach our hearts and minds in the language of love!
The secrets of the Kingdom that Jesus talked about are hidden for a reason

we dig, we sell all that we have, we search, we knock.....
and with the Helper/Comforter/Teacher....
we find!
Joyce :)

:dsunny:

Offline fire walker

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2008, 10:22:09 PM »
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.

This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.

It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this appears to me to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not Just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic, Jewish or better put yet just plain Religious Pharisies no matter what brand of Religion they name and claim to follow, just as a theocricy is a theocricy no matter of what religion it wields this false spiritual authority from where men sometimes unknowingly though often times knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause the spirit of the pharisee to burn in trying usurp the authority or to keep on with holding authority over others for their own short lived profits but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen ( and to us now is still falling), thankful all glory goes to God.

Fire Walker
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:59:27 PM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline Molly

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2008, 10:34:19 PM »
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.

This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.

It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this sems to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic and Jewish Pharisies where men sometimes unknowingly though sometimes knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause pharisies to burn as they try to keep on with holding authority over others but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen, thankful all glory goes to God.

Fire Walker

It should be observed that all Pharisees either place themselves between man and God or consider themselves, as in certain religions, Christ himself.


Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

"Pharisees"
G5330
Φαρισαῖος
Pharisaios
far-is-ah'-yos
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H6567]); a separatist, that is, exclusively religious; a Pharisaean, that is, Jewish sectary: - Pharisee.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Offline fire walker

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2008, 09:12:30 PM »
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.

This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.

It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this sems to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic and Jewish Pharisies where men sometimes unknowingly though sometimes knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause pharisies to burn as they try to keep on with holding authority over others but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen, thankful all glory goes to God.

Fire Walker

It should be observed that all Pharisees either place themselves between man and God or consider themselves, as in certain religions, Christ himself.


Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

"Pharisees"
G5330
Φαρισαῖος
Pharisaios
far-is-ah'-yos
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H6567]); a separatist, that is, exclusively religious; a Pharisaean, that is, Jewish sectary: - Pharisee.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Molly,

the message you deliver shines as a light to the point of my post, this placing of someone in authority over others as a mediator between man and God is one of the deceptive  means employed by mystery Babylon to hold all who they might
in bondage to the darkness of mens traditions, doctrines and ceremonial religion, the futher one has been sold into Babylon  the more the punishment or suffering there is in coming out, unlearning
what has been built on the sand is labor, this is a very hurtful thing, especially for those who have used their false spiritual authority over others for personal gain. Eventualy they also come to the wedding feast as Martin pointed out, even though as by fire, we all pass through the fires some appear to linger longer in these things than others on this side of time under the sun and from what I see this is all things in Gods time and not ours, every man in his own order, we can't change that, speed it up or slow it down because we are his workmanship and not our own.   The labor pains of the spiritual birth is much greater for some than others it appears.

Fire Walker
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 02:30:32 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2008, 07:06:10 PM »
Revelation 21:16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
12000 furlongs = 2200 km or 1377 mile.
AFAIK gravitational forces will force everything larger than a few hundred miles into a sphere.
That would indicate absence of gravitation.

Revelation 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Death and hunger are a form of decay. That would indicate the absence of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Sun and stars can't burn if there isn't a 2nd law of thermodynamics anymore.
Not even a candle is needed indicating there there are no shadows. But that's against the law of electromagnetism.

So basicly New Jerusalem is only possible without the laws of electromagnetism, gravity and thermodynamics.
I know many of you don't see the verses as a literal city coming down from heaven. I have no problem with that; but I think the verses literal or not have a 'hidden' message about the state of the universe and everything in it.
Inside the city there is light everywhere. But outside the city there is no sun/stars. I can't find the verse, as usual, that reads something like 'cast into utter darkness'. Indeed there would be utter darkness outside the city. Not even fire to give light because that's based on decay/thermodynamics.
Without gravity it's no longer possible to walk etc.

Is teh human body completly changed? Are we spirits?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2008, 08:09:02 PM »
The laws of physics could still be there and the city simply be upheld by the Word of God, like everything else.  The reason for no hunger is because the last couple of chapters of Revelation say that the trees will produce 12 crops of fruit every month.  To get a plant to be that fruitful, you're talking about no more carbon-14 and possibly the elimination of ultra violet light as well.  Isn't 12 crops of fruit every month a fresh crop about every two and a half days?

The sun, moon, stars, and planets will likely still be there because the last couple of chapters talk about outsiders that'll bring their glory and honor into it and the Spirit and Bride bidding people to come and take of the water of life freely.  Outside of the city are some pretty shady characters, according to Revelation 22, so for their benefit and to avoid killing them the way that the ark killed someone in the Old Testament that tried to steady it, the glory of God will likely not extend very far beyond the city although I know that's absolute heresy for the traditional views of the New Earth. 

I know that some [without many experiences with the glory of God in Pentecostal settings] would wonder about whether the glory of God [turned up full blast] would still do that to a sinner that touched it (or that level of it) since we're no longer under the ministry of condemnation, but think of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.  Peter's body, in that one chapter in Acts, is a good foreshadowing of how intense the power of God can be on that future city to where people even getting within the distance of him of his shadow were being healed.  It's not that God did anything to slap Ananias and Sapphira.  That's just simply how pure that He is and His purity is deeply corrosive to any sin being in His Presence.  So, the Blood of Jesus had to become our righteousness.  But that's not yet the case for those that haven't embraced Him.

We've got examples in North America, Europe, and Asia that cities can get very, very, very big.  Just think of one of those modern super cities without sin, without curse, and without religiosity.  The prosperity and peace would be almost more than you could stand, if there were a place like that today that you could run to!  You said that there would be no electromagnetism.  Yet a city that's that big that's emitting that much light and sound, and that has that many transparent metals and jewels would have to be emitting electromagnetism and light on every conceivable spectrum that you could think of as light and sound would pass through that metal and all of those gems.  The whole place would have to be behaving like a strobe light.  And without electromagnetism you can't have the plants working or any mortals on the planet.  What you've probably got is all of the forces of nature being brought to their proper levels so that everything's functioning at the right frequency and everything is complimenting everything else rather than chipping away at everything else as we have in the current eon of imbalance.

Christians within the city will likely be immortals, but that's not 100% certain although that's inferred by many of our theologies with the idea that the immortality of Christians happens before or at the same time as the wicked are being judged by the Lake of Fire judgment.  I have no problems with the whole planet having nothing but immortals on it at that time because Jesus found a use for food after His resurrection.  But I see hints of mortals still being on the planet at that time, and possibly even coming to the planet from elsewhere.  I'm starting to see the New Earth more and more as coming out of the fire in the way that this earth with all of it's corruption came out of Noah's Flood.  So, in my understanding of that, I'm not needing for absolute immortality to have already overtaken all Christians by that time period.  Again, that messes with everybody's theology, but there's already general agreement between many of us at these boards that there are details in 1Corinthians 15 that aren't necessarily fulfilled in their entirety until long ages into the New Earth.

I'm seriously starting to question whether anyone is immortal on the New Earth besides Christ Jesus.  The word "immortality" is conspicuously missing for me in Revelation 20 when the resurrection of the just and unjust is taking place.  It's not even fully implied by Romans 8, although some might choke on that until they've had another thorough look at that chapter.  Totally kick out the curse and we're at least no longer dealing with the type of mortality that we're dealing with right now.  There being no more death to me doesn't necessarily imply nobody dying in the way that people die today.  Although I don't believe that anyone or that very many in that day would die from any type of diseases or accidents because the greatest possible healthcare will exist in that day.  Death for me in that chapter that you've quoted could easily mean first death and second death; no more mass floods and no more mass cremations; no more Noah's Floods and no more Lakes of Fire.

Just simply getting to where Christ Jesus is physically among us again and to where every single need is met and there's more righteousness on the planet than sin is much more than enough to be content about, if I turned out to be right about that.  But total immortality for everyone could still wind up being a few ages beyond that.  There's a passage in Isaiah that promises that with the New Earth that the lifespans of people will be the same lifespans that trees have.  Trees can live to 8,000 or 10,000 years old.  The oldest trees were thought to be close to 5,000 years old, but they've been finding older in recent years that they're shy about telling anyone where they're at for obvious reasons of safety for those trees.  Who wouldn't be tempted to have furniture that's older than recorded history?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 08:17:42 PM by martincisneros »

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2008, 08:55:58 PM »
OOOOOOORRRR . . . .
The earth is restored to it's original state before the fall as it was in the garden and spirit becomes dominant over physical.  The New Jerusalem . .it's you.  Remember when Paul said we are "grafted in".  Spiritually, we are all Jews with renewed minds . . .which makes up a "new" Jerusalem. 

12,000 from every tribe . . . in God's pattern, when things are multiplied the number of themselves, it's speaking of entirety and completeness.  Remember the Scripture that states that the Holy Spirit was given as "earnest"?  A portion of the whole . . .a downpayment . . .it's just a fraction.

How many people were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit was poured out?  Why do you suppose it was important that we needed to know it was 120?  Unless God has a deeper message there . . .one that is connected to "tithe" of 12,000 maybe?  I mean if you think about it . . .if you did this with the US and said we're going to require 12,000 people from each state. . .that wouldn't be an honest assessment because each state is of a different size.  You want to take the population in Texas and take the same number from Vermont?

This again, is Jesus establishing a new government in his kingdom.  (12, the number for government).  And Scripture states that this "kingdom" does not come by observation, it is "within you."  You are the New Jerusalem . . .you are a gate of pearl . . .you are used to usher others into the kingdom of Christ.  The Sabbath.  Not about mental labor, all about spiritual rest.