Author Topic: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation  (Read 15609 times)

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martincisneros

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A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« on: April 09, 2008, 11:46:41 PM »
First, I wanted to say to some people that have emailed me, that I'll get back to you ASAP.  I'm just thinking through a response.  It's one thing to know something in your "knower" and another thing to be able to share coherently.


Anyway, yesterday, for once, I was enjoying an afternoon at home.  And I happened to glance through the open blinds from across the room and "off in the distance" I saw the New Jerusalem.  It was genuinely such a genuine and vivid vision that for a split second I was wondering if I was about to die pretty soon 'cause it was just "over there."  I didn't sorta see it.  I saw it.  It seemed like it was maybe half a mile away in all of it's monstrocity with the demensions given in the Book of Revelation.  It was the furtherest thing from my thinking at the time.  I was thinking through a website project that I was tinkering with.  And I just happened to look outside and....uh....hello!!


Has anyone given any thought as to whether or not it's something that bleeds through to the natural realm from other demensions after the millenium, or if it's literally something that travels over here like an impossibly large space ship or whatever?  Is it a spiritual reality that'll be built on this earth with the absolute abundance that grows throughout the millenium?  I know that Hebrews says that it's a city whose Builder and Maker is God.  But is it that a demensional veil is torn away and we see a city that had pretty much always been there since the resurrection, undisclosed to mortal eyes?  Anything inherent in the Greek text or perhaps a relevant Old Testament passage to indicate whether it's like the tabernacle that Moses built, which although built by human hands was an exact replica of the one in heaven?  Is it literally a flying city, or as I said, does it bleed through to the natural realm from higher realms so that it sorta suddenly or gradually appears like something from Star Trek with their transporters or whatever?


For a few weeks, I'd been entertaining thoughts of it being something metaphorical and perhaps not a genuinely literal city.  And then yesterday happened and my curiosity got stirred about whether or not God's literally going to move something THAT BIG and navigate it carefully past Jupiter, Saturn, etc., or whether it's something that sorta bleeds through to the natural realm and perhaps "descending from heaven" was the best possible language for the 1st century Greek language.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 08:35:23 AM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:....New Jerusalem = city = multiple habitations. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God? So it is here now, in the realm of Spirit, and since there is no time in the Spirit (as time is the measurement of death and there is no death in His Spirit which is life), then it always has been here, just not perceptible to the human eye unaided by the Spirit.

And, that was truly AWESOME He opened your spiritual eyes to see it! Blessings to you.......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 12:50:56 PM »
Hi Cardinal,

That's precisely where my thinking had been going for a few weeks, and while that's probably still true, I saw actual gold, colorful gems, etc.  I don't know why I hadn't previously put it together about all of the colors with the rainbow promise to the animals.  All of the different gems being the expression of that rainbow are probably a fulfillment of Isaiah chapter 54 where He said that He was adding to the meaning of the rainbow that He'd never again have hostility towards mankind.  Another way to take the last 3 chapters of Revelation is that He's ransacking the Old Testament of every beautiful truth, principle, and example that He can even remotely milk it of, and then He's burning up the rest that would condemn [or bring/impart condemnation] with unquenchable fire.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 03:34:49 PM »
 :cloud9: I have seen the gems as well. Once I saw 3 stairs, where there literally were 3 stairs leading up to where I had bible studies for 2 years. There was every kind of beautiful gem encased in the treads. The thought that came with this, was that the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord.

And the night I was used to lead an elderly Italian born woman to the Lord, I was given a dream/vision of the foundation that was laid in her. It was beautiful, dime size square blue sapphires, laid out in a pattern of sorts like a crossword puzzle. It was not completely filled in solid, and when asking in prayer about what this represented, it came to me that it was the course of her life, sort of her spiritual DNA in a sort of "map". Blessings to all.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 06:08:13 PM »
Are we "metaphorical-izing" ourselves right out of contemplating some other wondrous things that may occur?? "IT" points to.....(fill in the blank). Well, stop for a moment and contemplate "IT". (whatever "IT" is that you may be talking about.) Look around at creation.






I see a God who is saying to us..."Look! Look at what I can do!"  :grin: :Sparkletooth: 
Creation SCREAMS at us and creation whispers at us... metaphors and parables seen in billions upon billions upon billions of different ways.


Psalm 19:1 -The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork.



So yes, I believe we are to search for the metaphorical truths...
However, I also know that He delights in our being dazzled and awed. and I so LOVE that about Him...  :HeartThrob: The two go hand-in-hand it seems. At least, that has been my reality. When we look at His glorious creation, we should already be falling down at our knees in awe...don't you think? Sometimes I look around... at everything..the patterns, the wonder of it all..from biology to mathematics to chemistry to astronomy and botany and zoology, and I get a little flash of something in my mind. Like this veil will come off and His creation all around us... is going to just explode with so much insight. All around us... He is showing us things. He is showing us HIMSELF. and we trudge along like tiny little ants trying to "get it". Trying to piece things together, strugglig with our little breadcrumbs. Trying to UNDERSTAND and SEE.... and when that veil is lifted... like I said, it will all just EXPLODE into our BEING. It's like His creation is in shades of grey and we can only see so much. When the veil is lifted, creation all around us, will explode into trillions of different colors and we will SEE!

Just think about His creation so far. From the telescope to the microscope:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html


Our minds cannot handle how glorious God is...
Now, isn't THAT something?
Our minds.
CANNOT HANDLE.
just how GLORIOUS God is...
We are like little ants..
we think we see so much, but even that "much" is sooooo little.

That thought alone makes me shudder with excitement so much I can barely contain myself. Yes, especially looking around and seeing His creation so far... Seeing just the tip of the iceberg. and that little TIP is already so completely overwhelming. We can't fathom it...


So... metaphorical? yes...of course. Of course.
But so much more. The beauty and wonder of it all is also something to behold.
Let's never lose sight of the fact that He didn't HAVE to make it so beautiful and wonderful..
but He did.  :HeartThrob:
Let's cherish it and respect it and appreciate it.


peace,
sparrow

p.s. don't forget to visit the link!  :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 07:59:02 PM by sparrow »
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If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 06:23:18 AM »
I was getting ready to read the book of Revelation this evening  from Rotherham's translation when the Holy Spirit touched me very deeply with a thought.  We know that the book of Revelation was originally addressed to 7 Churches in Asia.  There's no disputing that.  The only questions have been as to whether it had literal or spiritual fulfillments, if it's fulfillments were exclusively 1st century, or for the near future from then or now, and/or if it has multiple fulfillments, or if it should be taken as explicit Christian allegorical porn whose objective isn't the exposure of human flesh for Christians to see, but the exposure of the nakedness and impotence of wickedness in the presence of the finished work of the Christ.

Here's the part that the Holy Spirit touched me with very deeply: as you read through chapters 2 and 3, those 7 churches DEFINITELY DID NOT have it all together -- from the natural way of looking at things -- with their tolerance of those holding the doctrines of Balaam, of Jezabel, of the Nicolaitans, etc.  Some were praised for seeing through false Apostles and false Jews, but others were condemned for fornication, whether literally or in the sense of a book of Hosea reference; there were condemnations for the eating of sacrifices to idols; a condemnation on getting caught up with the wealth that's the natural outcome of the Gospel working in one's life in it's entirety: they were condemned for straying from being rich towards God; there were rebukes for forsaking one's first love, etc.

Whatever the book of Revelation means, and whatever it meant to it's first century audience -- they didn't have to be proficiently walking in spiritual maturity without sinking in their attempt to walk on the water with the Lord [like Peter did] before the Lord could give them such a grand Revelation.  They didn't have to have it all together before the Lord would give them such a grand revelation.  Paul spoke very strongly to spiritual babies about not being able to show them anything because of their inconsistency in the faith, their wavering in love, and their fluctuating hope because of being caught up with the affairs of this life.  Sometimes in reading those comments from Paul in 1Corinthians and elsewhere, it can be a little discouraging when from our own perspective, [so often] if we could just see a few steps further than where we're at, then we'd be able to walk a straighter line with the Lord, or at least have more hope and praise towards the Lord.

When there are seasons of our lives that Christ's Ephesians 4 gifts to us of whatever Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers that He's placed in our lives -- when we're in those seasons that they can't really get through to us because of whatever's going on in our heads, in our lives, in our pains, etc. -- one of the purposes of the book of Revelation is to show us that even when we don't have it all together, He's still able to get through to us in His own way to show us the triumph of Christ over sinners; of Jerusalem over Babylon; of Good over evil.  He can still show you exceedingly, abundantly, above, and beyond all that you can ask, think, or imagine according to His power -- even when you feel condemned and as though He'd have absolutely no reason to, because you don't feel like you're even trying with what He's given you thus far.  He's not limited by your performance, even in the things that He's able to show you.  He's not limited by the strength of your roots.  He's still willing and able to show you all kinds of things, even when you're emotionally a total mess!

Jesus is still hearing things from the Father that He fully intends to pass along to you -- inspite of what you just did, or failed to do; should have done, wished you'd done/hadn't done -- whatever!  Perhaps like John on the isle of Patmos you've thought that this latest whatever means that your life, ministry, relationships, or whatever are completely over with because of this latest incarceration by your flesh or the natural realm around you.  He'll speak to you again.  He'll touch you again to where you'll fall under the manifestation of His Presence and Power, and you'll get up on your feet totally refreshed by Jesus, your High Priest.  You'll understand the mystery of all of the glory that surrounds Him, that you're called to inherit and walk together with Him in.  Perhaps it won't be a Jewish menorah that He'll show you, but it'll be the mystery to your own family, to those that you're STILL called to minister to, inspite of feeling like you're in chains and powerless to speak or to be heard.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 07:13:31 AM by martincisneros »

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 01:41:11 PM »
It says in the Gospel of John that those who believe on Jesus, as the Scriptures have said (about Him, no doubt) then out of their belly would flow rivers of living water, which the Gospel of John goes on to interpret for us as the Holy Spirit's baptism upon our lives.  In the book of Isaiah, I believe around the 12th chapter we're assured that with joy you draw water from the well of salvation.  Yet here in Revelation 21:3-8 we're told:

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



I know we tend to each be already fairly comfortable with our interpretations, for the most part.  But is this passage in Revelation 21 saying that the Lake of Fire isn't something that you're thrown into from the outside, as the imagery of Revelation 20 by itself would seem to indicate, but by contrasting it with the fountain of living water is this saying that the Lake of Fire is synonymous with the condemnation [and wrath] spoken of in the Gospel of John chapters 3 and 5 that would be the portion of unbelievers for the duration of their unbelief? 

Is the Lake of Fire nothing more than the agitation that erupts within an unbeliever when [through the preached Word (Mark 16:15-20)] the Spirit of the Lord draws near in convicting the world about sin because they don't believe on Jesus, of righteousness because Jesus is at God's right hand and we don't see Him any more, and of judgment because the prince of this world has been judged?

Do we go from Lake of Fire to fountain of living water, according to the above passage in Revelation 21:3-8 and everything else that you know about the New Testament, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the message of the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures??

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 12:56:22 AM »
Good stuff Martin! Something rings true in my spirit while reading your words. I had very similar thoughts concerning these scriptures latley.
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 11:55:39 PM »
It's starting to make more sense to me that the Lake of Fire is something that happens within you as a response to the Spirit of the Lord drawing near, if your heart isn't right, than to say that it's this big execution pit.  When you're heart is right, then from your faith and it's contact with the Holy Spirit – rivers of living water will flow from your innermost being, or rather from your belly as the KJV is actually pretty faithful to the Greek on that point. 

Many of us have had terrifying fears before that would arise within us either in response to a dangerous situation or to something stupid that we were seeing in a movie.  When fear comes up like that because of wrong information and a wrong heart where our Lord is concerned while He's come into our presence in an extra special way – then where else is there to run from the fear?  It will just intensify because you're anticipating the worst from the only one in the entire multiverse that would be capable of doing to you everything that you're fearfully imagining. 

That's not to say that He ever would, but enough wrong information, self deception, and fear running wild and you could turn 1200 thread count bed sheets into something frightful in your own mind.  A lot of people miss that when they come across Scriptures about the terrors that someone will experience in the Presence of our Lord if their heart isn't right.  It's self-inflicted torment for the most part.  If your spirit had hair on top of it's head and you turned every single hair completely white with your fear because God approached, that wouldn't be a reflection on Him.  That would be your own knees knocking.  And I'm not minimizing the torment that could come out of that.  A horrendously guilty conscience is an intolerable burden!

The torments of the Lake of Fire are your own conscience boiling like an egg in the Presence of Jesus.  The reality is that He wouldn't have to do anything to you except for getting a little closer and if your heart isn't right, you'll scream like an ax murderer is taking his sweet time taking all of your skin off, one dry razor burn after the other.  Revelation 21 says that the Lord has made His home among mankind, and some are experiencing that as a fountain of living water, while others are experiencing a very unpleasant burning in the pit of their stomachs over it.

A lot of people look at the fact that the gates of the Holy City will never be closed at any point, but that there are angels at each gate. They think that that's to keep anyone out because outside of the Holy City are all of the people with all of the problems.  Outside of the Holy City are the people with unresolved sin and worship issues before our Lord, fear and reluctance issues to come and bow before Him and to yield to all that He would have their lives to be through the power of His Holy Spirit.  But how does the book of Revelation end?  The Spirit and the Bride say "Come! Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely!!"  In other words, no one has to be a prisoner of a guilty conscience, the rebellion of their past, and the weight of everything that they've become liable for with all that they've done while not being submitted to Jesus Christ.

That burning fear can stop.  Those burning memories can lose their sting.  That agony over having disappointed both themselves and their Lord Jesus can stop.  The only inherent virtue in the fire is when it brings you to the point that you don't want it to burn any more, and you're ready to say "Lord Jesus, not my will, but Yours be done!"  Revelation 5:13 and 1Corinthians 15:28 tell us that it's going to happen someday, because according to 1Timothy 2:6 Jesus Christ is still the corresponding ransom for all.  That He's the corresponding ransom for all means that they're emphatically His, regardless of what anybody thinks that He will or ought to do with them.  He'll show each of them the same grace and patience that He's shown to each of us.

Their burning will stop.  Their thirst will be quenched with the Words of Jesus.  The torment will stop.  All tears will be wiped off of all faces – the Lord's face and the face of every single person that's ever existed or that will ever exist by that time period.  Everything's already been taken care of.  Everything has already been fixed.  All of the problems, globally, are more mental and emotional than any kind of spiritual reality of darkness or anything like that.  All things will be clarified and reconciled.  The work of Jesus Christ, according to Romans 5, brings justification of life.  That's not just talking about personally being made righteous or sanctified or anything like that.  That means that there's something that's been released from the Heart of God into the Creation that will ultimately permeate absolutely all of it.  It will make all of the previous pain and everything else that we've gone through totally worth it to get to see what we'll each see of wholeness and oneness for all of Creation with our heavenly Father.

Each of us has our part to play in the suffering.  Each of us is that quantum event that when we resist a temptation, we've resisted it for all of Creation.  When we refuse to walk in the old man, we're creating resistance for each individual in all of Creation to be able to put off the old man and to put on the new man through Jesus Christ.  It's all related and we're all connected.  Creation has fallen together through Adam and is rising together through Jesus Christ.  Each temptation to vary from the pattern of Jesus Christ in our lives completely overcome by the power of our new lives in Jesus Christ is the second hand on the clock leading us towards the New Heavens and New Earth that God has for each and every single one of us.  It's not a particular date on a calendar, like 2012, 2042, 2046, or 3010 when Jesus will come back and when the present heavens and earth will be engulfed into the New.

It's every act of rebellion against sin, every act of rebellion against hatred, ever act of rebellion against any word that's not a Word of the Gospel that'll get us there.  There are only a certain number of temptations for each of us [to overcome] before Jesus screams the quickening Word and the Holy Spirit does something absolutely miraculous through our bodies that's unspeakable in conforming these vile bodies into the image of His own.  Every temptation not overcome doesn't count in the final count.  Every temptation not overcome is just one more temptation that'll need to be overcome.  Every temptation not overcome won't push that button of life in the machinery of the heaven of heavens, that we're each awaiting the pushing of so that we can get on to the higher level of existence that each of us have been awaiting.  We've each known there was something stronger, higher, better, richer, and more pure than this existence that we've been awaiting – whatever our views of the last two chapters of the book of Revelation, whether literal or figurative or somewhere in between.

Each of us has our Cross.  All of us are already on it.  We've just got to push our own nails out to be able to get off of it and to enjoy the fuller realm of life that Jesus Christ has created for us, both in this world and elsewhere.  Each of us have been crucified long enough, but some yield to every emotion and every thought that's not the purity of the Gospel, so they prolong their own crucifixion needlessly.  The Holy Spirit is the strength and wisdom within you.  He's not a hand that'll pull the nails out for you and peel your butt off of that wood.  You're going to have to push.  You're going to have to rebel against death.  You're going to have to rebel against what's "common."  He's waiting on us.  We're not waiting on Him.  He's done what He's going to do.  He's just along for the ride now enjoying the fellowship with each of us.  He's [still] saying what He said in John 14:12-15 – "you've seen and heard all that I've done – now top it!"


« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 11:58:01 PM by martincisneros »

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 02:59:33 AM »
Has anyone ever noticed that the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" of Revelation 19 is between Jesus, or the Holy Spirit and the Babylon that received all of it's punishment in the 18th chapter?  That's the first time I'd ever seen "what" brought John to his knees in that chapter wanting to worship [and in his case misdirecting it towards the angel] 'cause it did the same thing to me!!  Just a few minutes ago, I read the whole book of Revelation from my Concordant Literal and when I got to that part I was like :omg:

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 03:46:13 PM »
I do miss these kinds of discussions . . .ones where they are about the redemptive work of Christ in us rather than the dissecting of a definition . .not that it's not important, it just seems to be so much more beneficial to feed off of the life flowing out of others, like you, when revelation comes to them/you.

I'm in a tough place now with my superiors . . .they have learned of a few of my differences with the denomination and they are not at all happy.  There was a bit of a blow up this past weekend as I was attending a pastor's district get-together.  I do so enjoy to revelate in the spirit realm, and yet, they see it as heresy . . .my tenure with this particular denomination may be coming to an end . . .I'm waiting for their promised follow-up to investigate more where I am.  We're diligently looking for purchasing our own house right now with that in mind.

At any rate, the Babylon you speak of . . .who is it?

For me, it's my carnality, my fleshly ways of thinking.  My mind has laid with any ole' belief and rather than remain with the Groom of Truth, she has laid with other men's contrafeit babblings, she has embraced her own version of truth and in doing so, defiled herself . . .only to be redeemed back and returned to her (speaking of my mind still) virgin state.  Only in the spirit can one go from a harlot to a virgin.  That's just how powerful the blood of the Lamb really is.

How much greater of a joy do we receive by pursuing these revelations as opposed to letting our minds intellect spar with another's!  Even though Peter had a living experience with the articles contained within the ark of the tabernacle in the mount of transfiguration . . .Elijah representing Aaron's rod, Moses representing the law, and Christ representing the manna . . .and he immediately wanted to build a platform and sacrifice to each of them, God did not hesitate to inform him, there is only one to which we're to give our offerings of praise and honor to . .it's not to the details of the literal words within the law, it's not to the superficial feelings of spiritual manifestations, but it's to the manna . . to Christ.  For "in him" the others are inbedded into.

I worship with you in seeing my Babylon has come to the redemption of Christ.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 07:41:29 PM »
I'm in a tough place now with my superiors . . .they have learned of a few of my differences with the denomination and they are not at all happy.  There was a bit of a blow up this past weekend as I was attending a pastor's district get-together.  I do so enjoy to revelate in the spirit realm, and yet, they see it as heresy . . .my tenure with this particular denomination may be coming to an end . . .

Of course not all churches are the same but the way I see it most would even marry the devil to please everyone. Read generate more cash.
Here in the Netherlands moslims are causing lots and lot of trouble. So a bishop/cardinal suggests we (Christians) shouldn't call God God anymore but allah because that also means god....
That may sound a bit off-topic but it makes me wonder why they hate Christian based UR while we need to bow for pagan allah...
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

joyful1

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 10:31:27 PM »
Of course not all churches are the same but the way I see it most would even marry the devil to please everyone. Read generate more cash.
oh my goodness, wabbit! you do have a way with words!

Nathan--sorry about your situation....I'm praying right now for you and your family to find a peaceful place that you can afford and go to in order to study what you know to be the truth!

Martin-- I am sooo glad you brought this up! Before I comment further about that passage.......I'd really like to ask you a couple of questions first!
1-- who did you THINK was Babylon before?
2-- who did you THINK was being "married" before?
3-- who did you THINK made up the invitation list to the "marriage supper of the Lamb?"
4-- at what point does the marriage supper take place AND WHY?


okay...that's probably enough questions to help you finish that 4th doctorate you've been working on.... :laughing7:

Joyce :)

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 11:13:52 PM »
Martin-- I am sooo glad you brought this up! Before I comment further about that passage.......I'd really like to ask you a couple of questions first!
1-- who did you THINK was Babylon before?
2-- who did you THINK was being "married" before?
3-- who did you THINK made up the invitation list to the "marriage supper of the Lamb?"
4-- at what point does the marriage supper take place AND WHY?
7th, but I can accept what seem to be the four or five predominant views on Babylon: Jerusalem, Rome, and literally Babylon, as in Iraq.  I can understand the perspective that Nathan was talking about, about coming out of our own Babylon so that we don't receive the punishment that that old nature deserves.  Because the prophecy about the fall of Babylon is sooo detailed with details that I've never seen a good allegorization of, then I'm leaning towards an actual physical location.  The prophecy even seems to make "Babylon" into a port city.  And I'm not sure if Jerusalem, Rome, literal Babylon, this world's system, or any of the other cities that have been conjectured about over the centuries really fits the bill yet, as far as something for a literal fulfillment, either 1938 years ago with the 70AD incidents or in the near future.  If you take the book of Revelation both literally, or with some literalism, and as a prophecy of the future in the way that many do, there's supposed to be sooo many catastrophies that are happening leading up to the fulfillment of that, that perhaps the face of the earth is completely redone and cities that aren't port cities today might become port cities in a few years through global warming and whatever else, including areas being blasted to Gehenna or Tartarus with nuclear weapons or supercolliders:-)

In Rabbinical thought, the wedding was always supposed to be between the Messiah and Israel.  In Biblical thought, though, the picture seems to be more about the coming of all nations to embrace the Lordship of Jesus and to be discipled by the Church.  St. Paul says in Romans chapters 9-11 not to count out Israel 'cause it'll come as well, though it's lagging behind.

As far as who made up the list to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, that would evidently be those that would come of their own free will, according to the principles of the Kingdom, because of the parable in Matthew 22 about going out there and getting them, yet someone still got thrown out because they didn't have the right garment on.  Some would try to make it about God's Sovereignty, but God's not the one that made the dude in Matthew 22 show up in his briefs; or his swim suit; or his shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops.  The garment indicates to me, discipleship: those that are letting the heavenly Father carry their cross daily of all of their cares, and those that are simply doing what He's telling them to do, and are continuing in the Words of the Gospel, treasuring them up in their mouth and heart, and living their lives accordingly.  Because in Revelation 7:13-16 it doesn't say anything about God's Sovereignty until it brings up His Shepherding those that had washed their garments in the Blood of the Lamb.  But it does say that they're coming out of great tribulation, which could be analogous to the double punishments that Babylon is getting in Revelation 18.  And though you may need to refer to another thread or two on this book of Revelation board to get where I'm coming from, if you hadn't already read them, to me this Marriage Supper of the Lamb passage overlaps with the 7th bowl, the 7th trumpet, the 7th seal, and the 7th letter written to the Churches that Revelation is addressed to.  So, a part of the 7th letter in Revelation is the Revelation 3:20 passage where He tells you plainly who dines with Him: those that open the door when He knocks.

So, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb should be taking place daily, but in a special sense in the book of Revelation it's happening for the city that opens the door to Him after coming out of the double punishments of Revelation 18.  My difficulty with making the passage the Jerusalem of 70AD is that they did not enter into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb afterwards and between 50% and 70% of them have remained in unbelief ever since.  And I can't see that much of a "gap theory" between Revelation chapters 18 and 19 where the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is taking place and the wicked are being slain from their wickedness (Micah 7:19).

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 06:29:35 PM »
If we take these things to be more literal than spiritual, does that not take away from the fact that this book is a revelation of "Jesus Christ"?  If we turn this all around and start naming people's and nations in the places of Babylons and natural Jews, it seems to become more about us instead of him.

Jesus is who was, is, and is to come . .the very things John was to write in Revelation one . . . it's not a chronological order of events coming to our generation at all.  Not to me anyway.  It's about the redemption between God and man through Christ.  Babylon, the bottomless pit, the beast, the dragon . .all of these are the speaking of the same being . . .my carnal mind.  The mind of man . . . the literal piece has already transpired with the uprooting of Israel's beleif system . .it had to.  The levitical order had to be removed as it was just a precurser to the order of Melchezedek.

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 07:16:29 PM »
If we take these things to be more literal than spiritual, does that not take away from the fact that this book is a revelation of "Jesus Christ"?  If we turn this all around and start naming people's and nations in the places of Babylons and natural Jews, it seems to become more about us instead of him.
But if we spiritualize what's already spiritual, aren't we rejecting the statements of Jesus Christ in favor of our own brand of occultism?  The book of Revelation is most definitely an order of events coming to our world and perhaps to our generation, or within the next few generations, but it's not stated in chronological order from chapters 1 through 22.  (As I've said elsewhere, I'm leaning towards an alignment of the letters in Revelation corresponding with the seals, trumpets, and bowls in numerical order because Revelation 22:6-10 indicates that it's both predictive prophecy and wisdom literature, similar to Hosea's description of itself in it's final verse.)  The book of Revelation is about the purification of cities and nations.  The book of Hebrews is a twin epistle of Revelation.  Perhaps I'll demonstrate that sometime on these boards.  Just like Ephesians and Colossians are thought to be twin epistles, although they're not strictly twins in any sense of the word.  The book of Hebrews deals with the uprooting of Israel's belief system that was contrary to the Scriptures and the replanting of God's belief system.  The book of Revelation is essentially the same thing, but with regards to the nations.  And until I've seen the nations belief systems uprooted and God's belief system replanted in the nations, then the book of Revelation cannot yet be said to be fulfilled.  As far as personal purification, we have all of St. Paul's epistles for that.  We're in no short supply of material to see our own complete comformity to the image of Jesus Christ through the magnifying glass of St. Paul's epistles that pulls down the light from heaven upon our lives as a laser to carve out of the stone of our lives His beautiful image.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 07:18:39 PM by martincisneros »

Offline studier

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 08:00:18 PM »
Quote from: martincisneros
If we spiritualize what's already spiritual, aren't we rejecting the statements of Jesus Christ in favor of our own brand of occultism?

Agreed. There seems to be a problem understanding what 'spiritual' actually means. A few here believe that spiritual means abstract idealism or philosophy and yet others here believe that spiritual means 'emotional' and on top of this a few here believe it means both those things.

So what is your definition of spiritual and spiritualization?

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2008, 09:30:51 PM »
Agreed. There seems to be a problem understanding what 'spiritual' actually means. A few here believe that spiritual means abstract idealism or philosophy and yet others here believe that spiritual means 'emotional' and on top of this a few here believe it means both those things.

So what is your definition of spiritual and spiritualization?
I don't want anything that I ever say to seem like I'd demean applying the Word to our own lives.  I wholeheartedly agree with that and teach that everywhere that I go.  But I do think that some people take their allegorizations a little too far, particularly when their "types and shadows" lack consistency throughout the Scriptures.  When the Word only means something about ourselves and we leave out the nations of the world and God's specific dealings with locations and people in locations (Acts 17) then we've taken a flying leap into the absurd.  To me, the Bible is everything that it always was: it addresses the individual; the couple; the family; the city; the region, state, or province; the nation; the nations; and all of Creation.

To me, spirituality would be having all of that balanced in one's understanding, and behaving in God's faith, hope, and love accordingly.  To me, an unhealthy spiritualization is looking for allegory when there's clear commandment, statement, intent, and details.  Some try to say that the book of Revelation, for example, is nothing but symbolism.  Anybody that says that, sincerely hasn't read it very many times and very likely hasn't read all 22 chapters in a really long time.  It's a mixture of symbolism with statements, encouragements, pronouncements, and details that if you try to get too weird with them, then you're not spiritual, you're just weird. 

I have zero dispute with anyone that believes that Armageddon takes place in the spiritual realm, and a few other actual interpretations work for me as well, until the Holy Spirit clarifies it to me with His understanding of it.  But I've seen too many Christians make vague generalizations about different things and then try to say that it's their spiritual interpretation, when it doesn't exhort, edify, encourage, warn, prepare, rebuke, or any of the other things that St. Paul said that the Scriptures were profitable for.  It breaks down into the very disputing over words that he forbade!  It's just their wittiness at drawing an irrelevant meaning out of the passage that suits them, but wouldn't stand up in a court of law with very many theologians and prophets.  I'm not talking about anyone in particular.  And I don't have anything specifically in mind as I'm saying this.  To me, spirituality is simply walking in the Covenant with Christ, doing what He says to do, and keeping every care cast upon God, according to 1Peter 5:6-7. 

We're exhorted to be sober and vigilant in keeping the devil out of our lives, but that's accomplished through what I've just said with doing all that He says and keeping every care cast upon Him.  That's the Christian walk to me: doing everything that He says and keeping every care cast upon Him.  There is no Christianity without both sides of that equation.  Since the New Testament is filled with spiritualizations and allegorizations of the Old Testament, then there's not as much room for doing that with the New Testament as a lot of people imagine.  That predominantly belongs with reading the Old Testament and filtering our understanding of the Old Testament through the doctrines of the New Testament. 

An insight -- any insight might be true, but does it do the work of an evangelist, a prophet, a teacher, and a pastor when you share it with others?  Are others pushed just a little further into being conformed with the image of Jesus Christ by being made aware of that?  Insights are wonderful.  They're often very helpful with one's own personal walk with the Lord, and they'll often have a direct context for something that you're dealing with.  But when it's not an actual life-changing revelation that has clear application to the growth of others, is it really worth sharing, until it's own inherent leavening has matured and seasoned it with practical applications and an actual flow of understanding of the Scriptures, of the Christian walk, and of overcoming every adversary?? 

Now, if someone were to come and say, "I personally believe that such and such consistently means such and such throughout this particular book of the Bible, these particular books of the Bible, or throughout the whole Bible," then there's more of a basis for judging the revelation, as it says to in the Corinthians letters, and there's more of a chance for the edification, challenging, and Scriptural motivation of every believer when something looks like it's going to have some consistency.  But when it's a form of Bible trivia that doesn't really take us anywhere, but is presented and even defended as though it were sacred doctrine when there's no sense of actual doctrine, application, and transformation to it, but is merely someone's favorite thing to read into a Scripture, then that's when I start having some issues with it being dogmatized about when something else was being said or inquired about. 

Probably all of us have insights that we've received from the Holy Spirit that we're sitting on until we see where the Lord wants to take that, what relevance it has to the Scriptures and to our lives, and how we can help to set Creation free with it.  But real maturity knows the difference between something that can be said that's a genuine baptism with the Holy Spirit to someone else; what'll destroy yokes and remove burdens, and what just contributes to what St. Paul would call the itchy ear syndrome.  I've seen far too many things on these boards that are just partial insights that the Holy Spirit hadn't finished fully explaining and giving perspective on that have been used by spiritual babies to take dogmatic stands against areas of sound Christian doctrine. 

And when people do that, they're not only thumbing their nose in the face of historic Christian doctrines, but they're aborting the revelation that God was going to give them because they prematurely made a judgment call and wound up getting judged with the same judgment they dished out.  So they wind up neither understanding the Christian doctrine in question or where the Holy Spirit was really trying to take them with a particular partial insight because they got into strife and as Mark 4 says, the Word was choked in them and brought no fruit to maturity. 

And I know from experience what it's like to have to sit on some insights for years that the Holy Spirit never would take me any further with until more mature seasons of my life when I'd learned sooo much more, and then He'd remind me of what He told me 15 years ago and say "oh and by the way......" and I'd be sooo thankful that that hadn't been my tape of the month those years ago!  Because back then I was looking at a sihlouette and not anywhere near as much detail as I thought that I was seeing with such and such a controversial or novel thought.  But when other things came into perspective, "BANG!" this other insight finally had a face, supporting doctrine, and the accompanying signs, wonders, miracles, and the richest Presence of God that I'd ever experienced up until then.  And those many years ago, I'd written out pages and pages and pages of journaling about such and such that I thought meant something entirely different and reforming to the present face of Christendom. 

When all it wound up being was a fresh perspective and a back door way to get me into an area of Biblical doctrine already believed in by tens of millions that I wouldn't have been able to have seen and understood without that oddball insight that was one of the Lord's steps in bridging the gap between my understanding and my ability to accept His Word on something that's still controversial with a lot of people.  Real oddball revelations that are from Him have a way of ultimately pulling you in tighter with the rest of the Body of Christ rather than fragmenting you away from them.  If every revelation a person is supposedly getting is distancing them further and further from the Body of Christ, then there's reason to question which spirit they're listening to.  Doctrinal differences are one thing, but a spirit of suspicion, accusation, and conspiracy against the Body of Christ where the Lord has said that there is no conspiracy (Isaiah 8:12) is of the evil one.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 09:42:33 PM by martincisneros »

Offline studier

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 09:48:29 PM »
I agree with you on almost everything you said, and the stuff I didn't agree with I don't disagree either, I just don't understand. :P

joyful1

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2008, 11:12:49 PM »
Okay....Martin--
so now that you've had an "ah-haa" moment....
what is it that you see that may be different than before?
Joyce :)

Offline Nathan

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2008, 06:13:25 PM »
I have many serious issues with the belief that Revelation is still going to happen.  Things like . . .Daniel was told to seal the book because it was things for another day . . .Jesus opened the book . . .John was given an extension of it and at the very end, he's specifically told "not" to seal it because the "time is at hand".  Meaning . .to me . .that it had already begun.

If it was only 600 years or so between Daniel and Jesus and Daniel was told to seal it . .then how are we to expect that even though John was told "not" to seal it up, that it's going to happen 2000 years later?  it just doesn't fit at all.

Having said that, do not jump to the conclusion in thinking that I am a Preterist . .I am not.  But there are things they do claim that I do agree with and this is one of them.

Another piece to this is . . .to whom was it originally written to?  It is believed that it was written to a generation of people that was seeing the beginning of the end as far as the religious system goes . .and as far as a nation goes for that matter.  So, in that setting, what the traditional belief is . .these guys are litterally running for their lives.  They see rape, murder and mutilation of their own family members on a daily basis.  They're trying to just survive in caves or where ever they find any hint of safety, and then the word comes . . .John . .the last living disciple who had also been caught and an attempt at boiling him to death miraculously failed, had recieved a revelation from God for the church.

The anticipation building up to the delivery of that message to the churches must have been unimaginable.  But the day would finally come and as the priest unrolled the scroll . ..hands shaking as they were so needing a deliverance or at least something they could hang on to that would give them strength to get through such a terrible time . . .and what tradition is wanting me to believe is . . the message to that generation is . . ."Hold on!  Because 2000 years from now . . .Jesus is coming!"

It just doesn't fit for me.

Yes, I pursue the spiritual piece.  I have thrown myself into this because I understand and appreciate the fact that I'm not to lean on my own understanding . .that my mind is at emnity with God . .that my natrual reasoning just can't comprehend spiritual realities.  So, yeah, I most willingly walk away from knowledge and walk into revelation.  Because what I've found is, when my mind shuts up, my spirit gets life and in return, that life is then planted in my mind and understanding does come . .but there's an order to it.

The spiritual understanding, in my view, is seeing an intimate connection between Christ and man . . .the redemptive effects of what the cross has accomplished in man . . . relationship between soul and spirit  . . and understanding that "I" am spirit and the words are nothing more than words until the Spirit breathes life into them, giving them and I a whole new meaning of truth.  The end result, there is no fear, there is no condemnation, there is no attack against another for not seeing the same things, there is only love and acceptance.

As big as God is . . .do we really think we have such a great understanding above another that we can say "I'm right, you're wrong."?  It's not about right and wrong, never was . . .it's always been about becoming one.

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2008, 06:48:07 PM »
Okay....Martin--
so now that you've had an "ah-haa" moment....
what is it that you see that may be different than before?
Joyce :)
To me, what I started this thread with somewhat weakens the initial impression about the book of Revelation as being a doom/gloom book and it gives it as beautiful of a pedestal to shine from as Isaiah, the Psalms, or Song of Solomon.  One surprise for me last night, as I re-read through the whole book of Revelation aloud from my Scarlett's New Testament and then from my Concordant Literal New Testament is that I was better able to see how some people interpret the burning city as Rome.  I'm not 100% sure yet that I agree with that being the identity of the mystery babylon of the book of Revelation, but it made more sense last night than it had in quite a few years.

As far as Nathan's questions, the persecutions against Christians weren't that intense prior to 70AD.  And it definitely wasn't wide-spread.  It was mostly localized stuff until later.  A persecution in Jerusalem, or in another city, or in another city, but it wasn't overwhelming until later.  Isaiah gave the prophecy of the virgin birth to someone, but it's fullest fulfillment wasn't for over 700 years.  God promised Adam that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent.  Would it have been fair to have given Adam such a prophecy with all that he was going through that wasn't to be fulfilled until another 4,000 to 40,000 years?  Time is irrelevant with much of Biblical prophecy.  God says what He wants to say, when He wants to say it, about events that are either immediate or long-term.  The book of Revelation could lack a total fulfillment for another 10,000 years and still have as startling of a series of fulfillments as the Old Testament prophecies had in the first coming of Jesus Christ.  It just winds up being in proportion to God's faith and wisdom and however long it takes Him to call things that be not as though they were until all of His objectives and all of the background stage scenery is in place for His prophecies to come to pass on the particular stage that He wants them fulfilled on.  When God says something, there's the fact of it happening to the letter, but there's also the part about the mindset of the people that are in the background as it happens, and there's the consequences and ramifications afterwards that God is wanting, as in when some of the historians will point to Christianity having come onto the scene at precisely the right moment because of the Roman roads, the communication network throughout the empire, etc.

My discovery of the last few days put the book of Revelation in my eyes into the same category as the Song of Solomon.  The next thing for me to look at/into is that the Apostle John was told to prophesy over languages (Revelation 10:11).

Offline studier

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2008, 09:49:23 PM »
Quote
As big as God is . . .do we really think we have such a great understanding above another that we can say "I'm right, you're wrong."?  It's not about right and wrong, never was . . .it's always been about becoming one.

This is not about "I'm right, you're wrong" it is about what is correct and what is not correct. This is not an issue of another man knowing more or not, but there are those who have much greater understanding compared to another and to deny this is blindness.

Romans 1:18-21
  • The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

2 Timothy 2:24-26]
  • And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

joyful1

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2008, 05:16:48 AM »
Here's another look at that passage, sotw....just found an interesting discrepancy :

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (Young's Literal Translation)

24  and a servant of the Lord it behoveth not to strive, but to be gentle unto all, apt to teach, patient under evil,

25  in meekness instructing those opposing -- if perhaps God may give to them repentance to an acknowledging of the truth,

26  and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.

Joyce :)

martincisneros

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Re: A tender aspect to the book of Revelation
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2008, 07:13:59 AM »
There is a famous physicist who wrote a couple books of collider black holes. He invented a machine which can receive information he sends back in time from the future. He actually has the math all sorted out, and is waiting for the information gathered from the collider experiment to finally apply it. It will be pretty cool if he can do it. Although, he says plainly, "Nature abhors a time machine." because the only way time flows is forward.
You can go in any direction in time that space would allow you to go since space and time are interchangeable, and the one is convertable into the other.  Space and time are neither created nor destroyed, but just change forms: the one into the other or vice versa. We should have developed time travel at the same time as we developed space travel, but as we developed the ability to work with matter before we learned how to work with energy, it seems as though we've been destined to overcome traveling great distances before we were able to work with time. 

The ability to redeem time is a New Testament revelation.  Time should never "fly."  That's a property of the curse of the law (Deuteronomy 28).  God promised both length of days and long life.  And even scientifically, as you age you shouldn't grow older.  That curse was annihilated at the Cross.  There have been studies of people in mental hospitals, where some major trauma happened in their lives with regards to a loved one, and though they'd been in the mental hospital for decades ever since a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend never came home from the war or from whatever, they stopped aging the day they went into their psychosis, trance, or whatever.  Time became our possession the day that Jesus was raised from the dead.  "Ages" in the New Testament isn't just a revelation of durations or the goofy idea of dispensations. 

Time is a part of our inheritance.  And you don't die to inherit an inheritance that's been left to you.  Someone else dies.  Time isn't just water that's been running out of our hands.  It's personal property.  And I'm determined not to be the fool that buried the talent and went to the Lake of Fire over it.  We're joint-heirs with Christ. Not when we die.  From the moment we opened the door and began eating of His Flesh and Blood literally and daily, time became ours.  We were conveyed out of the Kingdom, or time demension, of darkness and translated into the Kingdom, or time demension, of the Son of His Love. 

Jesus Christ, in His ministry where He has the same orders as Melchezedec had, leads us from the moment that He's seated us at His right hand in our baptism with the Holy Spirit, according to Revelation 19 to where all of the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field are able to gorge themselves on the time line that has warred against the armies of the Lamb in this world.  Time unrestrained by a believer's authority is what tries to war against the Lamb and His armies.