Author Topic: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase  (Read 1842 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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If you confine your expression of what you believe to the words God Himself chose to make His revelation known you would discover as I have that much of what we were told by others to practice or believe has no place in a strictly Scriptural Christianity.

Like the 4 times occurring phrase "great tribulation" never has the number 7 attached to it; in other words, the phrase "the 7 year(s) great tribulation" never occurs in Holy Writ. The 4 times "great tribulation" occurs are: Mt 24:21, Acts 14:22, Rv 2:22, Rv 7:14. It seems to me from their context they are not all speaking of the same event. In other words, "great tribulation" is a phrase applied to more than one thing. Some Preterists might say they are one thing. I have not absolutely proved or disproved that to my own satisfaction. Regardless, what is decisive is that the number 7 is not used in any occurrence of the phrase "great tribulation." This indisputable Bible fact, for those whose expressions of faith are limited to the actual words of the Bible, verified from the original languages, requires them to cease using it when discussing Bible doctrines unless as an illustration of a non-Biblical artifact. Without this phrase the whole eschatological time line scheme of racial dispensationalism collapses.

Here's a quick review of the 4 occurances of "great tribulation: the "great tribulation" referred to in Matthew 24:21 most probably refers to the persecution of the Jews culminating in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Then Acts 14:22 refers to what "great tribulation" must transpire in order for us to enter the kingdom of heaven. The promise of being thrown into "great tribulation" made by Jesus to those who commit fornication with the great prostitute (Rev 2:22) would seem to make it important to be very certain what this "Mystical Babylon" actually is. The remaining "great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) seems to me to be more generic, referring to those across the ages who have suffered for Christ, though some scholars believe it refers to the tribulation imposed by the Roman Empire upon the early Church. Apart from interpretations, the fact remains: THE NUMBER SEVEN IS NEVER USED IN A PHRASE CONNECTED WITH THE WORDS "GREAT TRIBULATION!!!"

There is in addition references to the general tribulation that occurs to anyone living in the world in their humiliation of the flesh while the days are evil. About that Jesus says, "Fear not, for I have overcome the world."

There is only one tribulation that has verifiably not yet occurred. It is the one that, under the anointing of the Holy Ghost, the saints bring to those not knowing God and not obeying the gospel, "...in the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers..." (2 Thes 1:7; see 1:3-10.) ". . . having all in readiness to avenge every disobedience whenever your obedience may be completed." (2 Cor 10:6) This pertains to the transition into the next age which will be ruled by God's holy ones, His Royal Melchizedek Priesthood, those blessed and holy partakers of the Lamb's marriage feast, the Feast of Tabernacles fulfilled.

A common "non-answer" to the fact "7 year(s) great tribulation" is not in God's word I have examined in the following:

No adding up this here and subtracting that there will suffice to make up for the non-existence of this phrase. IT IS NOT WRITTEN! If you add the mentions of 3 1/2 years in the Revelation they equal 10 1/2 years. Perhaps there is meaning in adding up the various descriptions of this period. The 42 months indicate the perspective of the lunar reflective, rule over night, the menstrual cycle, church realm; the sun is the day perspective, emphasizing the Divine view; the years are seasonal perspectives, sowing and reaping, even generational; etc. While perhaps not "adding to" the word of the prophecy of this scroll as is warned against, it is certainly "adding" the words, pun intended. There is no warrant in the text to either do this or base so large a theory on such computations.

"Forty and two months" (42) occurs twice (Rev 11:2; 13:5) but are they the same period? Should they be added into some grand total? Twelve hundred and sixty (1,260) Days (Rev 11:3; 12:6) add up to another 7 years but there is no lawful basis, that is, it is without Scriptural directive to do this "adding" as a foundation for claiming proof of some kind of seven years. They are apparently two mentions from "the Day" view of the same period. "Time, times and half a time" (Rev 12:14) happens once. So we have 10 1/2 years, 7 years of days and 7 years of months plus an assumed additional 3 1/2 years in times which equal 28 (four 7's?) years all told. Of course, without determining what is concurrent or consecutive we have no reliable results concerning our search for a specified seven year period.

Leviticus has the most numbers of any book of the Bible, containing the dimensions of the tabernacle. The book with the second most numbers in it is Revelation. Surely if God intended us to count on a closing 7 years period called the great tribulation it would seem of all books in which He would speak of it would be the Revelation. But no! It's not there! However many, perhaps even if all of the 3 1/2 year periods pertain to the same period only repeatedly mentioned, ALL, I repeat ALL these numbers were actually mentioning not 7 but 3 1/2 year periods. That is a fact. (It was 7 or 8 times mentioned if you assume the "time, times and half a time" is included.) Another fact: the Romans besieged Jerusalem 3 1/2 years before it's destruction.

My mind is dazzled by the almost unbelievable fact that people's lips say they believe the Bible then make a word such as "rapture" or a phrase such as "7 year(s) great tribulation," both of which are conclusively non-existent in the Holy Writings of the Oracles of God, to be kind of lynch-pins for something as important as the nature of the transition from "the last days" of this eon into "the new day" of the next. Of course this is done with other matters too, like the phrase "original sin" or "immortal soul," among many. It is absolutely a violation of my conscience as a Christian for whom the Bible is the objective standard for my faith and practice. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Is 8:20)

I admit there are times when it is convenient or functionally irrelevant to use other words, like "eschatology" or "teleology" though these are based on Scriptural words. But I must insist, when we are attempting to access conclusively what is revealed in Holy Writ for our faith and practice we must confine ourselves to the words the Holy Spirit, God Himself, has chosen to make His revelation known. If we cannot conform ourselves according to the objective authority of what is or is not written we are deceived and will deceive others. This is not to say we are entirely outside of the grace of God. He is very merciful, and just as mankind in it's immaturity was winked at, so in our own childish ignorance we may have not come under the strict discipline of such adherence to Scripture.


--- James M. Rohde
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 07:24:16 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2008, 01:42:39 PM »
A lot of this idea of 7 years seems to come from the book of Daniel, but they seem to pull from all over the Bible.  It has always made my eyes roll back in my head trying to study this.  Here is a typical website explaning the 7 years.  Maybe if I read it again it will begin to make sense.  If you read it over at the original site, you can click on the Bible passages, making it an easier read.






Question: "What is the Tribulation? How do we know the Tribulation will last seven years?"

Answer: The Tribulation is a future 7-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The Church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will not be present during the Tribulation. The Church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The Church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the Tribulation is referred to by other names such as these:

1) The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
2) trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:15)
3) Great Tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21)
4) time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15)
5) time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)

An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the Tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against "your people." Daniel's "people" are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and what Daniel 9:24 speaks of is a period of time that God has given "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." God declares that "70 weeks" will fulfill all these things. It is important to understand that when "70 weeks" is mentioned, it is not speaking of a week as we know it (7 days). The Hebrew word (heptad) translated as "week" in Daniel 9:24-27 literally means "7" and 70 weeks literally means "70 sevens" (70 times 7). This time period of which God speaks is actually 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off "7 weeks and 62 weeks" (69 weeks total) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves 1 seven (7 years) to fulfill the terms of Daniel 9:24. This final 7-year period is known as the Tribulation period--it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for their sin.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the 7-year Tribulation period. This verse says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) and is called "the beast" in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years), but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. Also see Daniel 7:25 where the "time, times, and half a time" (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.

For further references about the Tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3 which speaks of 1,260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12 which speaks of 1,290 days and 1,335 days, all of which have a reference to the midpoint of the Tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).


http://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

Shadowland

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 03:57:59 AM »
Do you realize that the Tribulation lasts as long as God's creation with HIM resting on the 7th day.
Suppose you are in Tribulation until you Believe(or enter into His Rest)...I kinda look at it as the day I receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for I was NOT cleansed/forgiven before that day.  But after a while things got muddled up in my life...do you suppose that might be the Tribulation and the milenium(where the devil is let out again?)

And the 3 1/2 years might point to the time that Christ came?


Offline Taffy

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 12:33:49 AM »
Yup Shadowland

7 is NOT seven ITS ONE.

Tribulation,a pressing TOGETHER,,,,

Comes in a Moment, Like a Thief In the Night ,..when the Earth and Heaven fade away.



 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 01:01:50 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 06:52:06 AM »
My mind is dazzled by the almost unbelievable fact that people's lips say they believe the Bible then make a word such as "rapture" or a phrase such as "7 year(s) great tribulation," both of which are conclusively non-existent in the Holy Writings of the Oracles of God, to be kind of lynch-pins for something as important as the nature of the transition from "the last days" of this eon into "the new day" of the next.

Amazing isn't it? I kept asking that the first time I read the Bible 23 years ago, and no one that answered me thought it odd that the word rapture was not even in there. That's why I asked the Lord about it in the first place. I got curious one time and ran down the prophecy of the young girl that started all of it. What amazes me the most is that the denoms that swear by it, yet many of them discard the gifts like prophecy and speaking in tongues, that bring the words in the first place. I'm not totally convinced the Lord didn't say what she said, but only that it was taken into literal understanding and run with, as is most everything. Apparently, it was a man that heard it and ran with it, it wasn't even her.

Tribulation was settled for me when I read the word comes from a word meaning, "an instrument to thresh wheat", ie. remove the chaff. I have not noticed the fire of the Lord having any problem removing the chaff. Blessings....
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 06:55:57 AM by Cardinal »
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Offline reFORMer

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Non-existent Gap in Daniel's 70 Weeks


Very simply, the beginning of the seventy (70) weeks of years, or 490 years, was, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." (Dn 9:25) After the 69th week, or 483rd year, Jesus came out of the waters of John's baptism and was revealed to Israel.  In the midst of this last week of years, He was cut off.  The other half of the week is the emergence of the Eclessia, which is His body.  At the completion of the seven (7) years is the stoning of Steven.  There is no gap between the sixty-ninth (69th) and seventieth (70th) weeks of Daniel's prophecy.  The Kingdom was set up "in the days of those kings" (Dn 2:44), the Ceasars, without any Biblical or historical reason for postponment.

EXCURSUS:"The Kingdom of God 'Now Is and Is Yet To Come' "

To maintain some theories of interpretation it is important to deny the Kingdom of God came forth with the revealing of Christ the many membered man. (cp., 1 Co 12:12)  But hear what the Scripture says.  In Mt 19:16-30 having "eonian life," (vs.16) and, "entering into life" (vs.17) is "keeping God's precepts;" (vs.17) which, according to what Jesus cited (vss.17-19), means the Ten Commandments.  This precedes what Jesus called, "To be perfect," (vs.21) toward which He says to "sell your possessions and give to the poor," (vs.21) and then to "follow Me." (vs.21)  Jesus says this is a difficult for the rich and defined all of it as to "be entering into the kingdom of the heavens," (vs.23) focusing on the realm; and, back to back, as meaning the same thing, to "be entering into the kingdom of God," (vs.24) emphasizing the Ruler of that realm.  The disciples spoke of all this as being, "Saved!" (vs.25)  Then Jesus proceeds to farther unfold the future of this kingdom expressed as judging from thrones of glory with Him in a time called "the renascence" (vs.28) in CLV, "the regeneration" in AV, Hendriksen says, "the restored universe."  It may be the "glorified universe," where outwardly " the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab 2:14) and inwardly all is full of the glory of God in manifestation (Ep 4:10).

It seems there is a past, present and future to "the kingdom" indicated in this passage. (Mt 19:16-30)  I like what Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible." (vs.26)  This very much defines the nature of the kingdom's occurence being of grace, God voluntarily acting on our behalf.  It is all about being, "With God!"  Notice He also explains how this is being worked out now, that we leave people and things for His sake and the gospel and we get "a hundred-fold" back, as well as "enjoying the allotment of life eonian," (vs.29) which is explained as knowing God and Jesus Christ Whom He commissions, (cp., Jo 17:3)  It also seems clear to me from this passage that it would be erroneous to say the kingdom is only outward and future.

Here's an example of another spelling out of the number seventy (70) in the words of Scripture, and it is years also.  It explains part of why the deportation to Babyon.  They had not kept the sabbath years, leaving the land idle every seventh (7th) year and the fiftieth (50th) year.  "To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years." (2 Ch 36:21, AV)  There is no reason to insert a two thousand year parenthesis or gap after sixty years so that the last ten years in the sentence occurs two thousand years later.  This warrantless procedure makes void the word of God by making seventy (70) years into 2,070 years.

We are told that the prophecy of the seventy (70) weeks was given to Daniel when he was in prayer and contemplating the approaching fulfillment of this prophecy of Jeremiah's:  "For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place." (Jr 29:10, AV)  It was no doubt also of some concern to him that God had said:  "And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations." (Jr 25:12, AV)  There is no hint here of some parenthesis of millennia's of time inflating this seventy (70) years to a time when there is only a mystical but no physical Babylon to destroy.  God said that the destruction of Babylon, which was after Israel's return to the land, would be complete.  It would never be rebuilt and fishermen would dry their nets there.  There is no mention of a great tribulation in connection with any week or seven years in Dn 9:24-27.  "Seven years great tribulation remains a phrase absolutely non-existent in the Bible.

There is no reason to insert any interval between the feet and ten toes (vs 41) of the statue with the head of gold (cp., Dn 2:31-45.)  "The feet and toes" (vs.41) is called "the fourth kingdom" (vs.40) and it is referred to in the singular in vs.40, 41, 42, 43.  (Many have heard some form of objection to inserting that gap between feet and toes.  It is important to regard such things.  What have you to answer in defense?  I know it didn't arise spontaneously without any prior knowledge from your personal study of the text since it is not in the text.  From what I understand, it originated in prophecy conferences in the later 1800's and early 1900's.)  "A stone cut out without hands:" (vs.34) Christ the head and body, "smote the image upon its feet," (vs.34) the feet being the fourth, the Roman Empire.  The details of why there was a continuance of the four realms until the whole was in men's awareness in the days Jesus and His Eclessia destroyed the image is very revealing.  A spirit of that image through secular education works yet today. 

Something else, something of the manifestation of the sons of God is going to define man in the future.  The image revealed the meaning of life, which is, there is no meaning to life!  Carnal man has been tried and found wanting.  This is what in forgetting made the king so enraged he would kill all whose work in the world was wisdom.  This included, "the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans," (Dn 2:2) and "the soothsayers" (vs.27) who all belonged to Daniel, now their Lord, because he saved their lives.  The death of Jesus ended the world of Adam and all God blessed there.  The image was, "Broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. " (vs.35)

The image of the world in Daniel foretold four world Empires that are past.  The stone has become a great mountain and is in the process of filling "all the earth."  We continue to rise from a period of depression, returning from a several hundred years setback that has to do with the purifying of God's kingdom that shall not be given to another people.  The agent of the Kingdom, the Church, is entering into amazing changes, inheriting spiritual power and Divine authority.  Three of the beasts are past, Great Britain, the Soviet Union (on one side, leftist,) and the leopard, or "panzer" of Germany.  We are now dealing with the fourth (4th) beast Daniel foresaw, the United Nations.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 09:30:03 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Stephen

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The 70 weeks of years are decreed for Daniel's people national Israel .... not the church

The Jewish Heptad is rendered as a "week" of 7 [360 day] prophetic years

69 weeks, or 483 years have transpired and ended in about 33 A.D.

The beginning of the 70th week of 7 years is still pending until the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the church

The Lord has delayed His return to begin His hour of trial [the coming tribulation period]

There is a breach in the visions of the prophets between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week .... there is nothing of earthly events recorded in visionary prophecy over the last 2,000 years up to this very day

And no one knows when the Lord will intervene to begin the 70th week

This future time frame will consist of 1,260 days + 1,260 days + an additional 30 days + 45 days as explained in the 12th chapter of Daniel

He will turn on the kingdom of satan's beast [the little horn] and followers and destroy it in 30 days at the end of the tribulation period .... Armageddon[Revelation 16]

He will then gather the mortal survivors of the tribulation period for separation [next 45 days] and those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:29-31(the elect of the believingremnant of Israel); Matthew 25:31-46(those believing of the Gentile nations)]

His millennial kingdom on the earth will then begin and last for 1,000 years [Micah 4; Revelation 20]

Daniel
9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Past Fulfillment
9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah [the Lord] be cut off, but not for himself:

Future Fulfillment
and the people of the prince that shall come [the little horn "antichrist"] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

9:27 And he [the Lord] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he [the little horn "antichrist"] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 11:45:15 PM by Stephen »

Doug

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2009, 06:46:05 PM »
Stephen wrote:
Quote
The 70 weeks of years are decreed for Daniel's people national Israel .... not the church

The scripture shows there is an "Israel after the flesh" [1 Corinthians 10:18] and those who are "born after the Spirit." Those "born after the flesh" persecute those "born after the Spirit." [Galatians 4:29]

Being a prophet, Daniel is among the latter, along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus said they are included in his kingdom. [Luke 13:28]

In Ephesians 2:19-22, Paul calls the church a temple, and he says the prophets and apostles are its foundation.

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

All believers are described metaphorically as "stones" in the temple of God, and Jesus is the "chief corner stone."

Ephesians 2:20-23
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Darby's doctrine of dispensationalism denies that the Old Testament prophets are part of the church; he claimed the church and Israel are separate.

In Daniel 12:1, the saints, who the angel refers to as "thy people," are the ones who are raised up from their graves at the resurrection. They are those whose names are "written in the book." Surely, this implies they are included in the very same group as those mentioned in Revelation 21:27, whose names are in "the Lamb's book of life." Daniel said, "at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Paul referred to his "fellowlabourers," as those "whose names are in the book of life." [Philippians 4:3]

Those who overcome are said to be in the book of life in Revelation 3:5. They are also referred to in Revelation 13:8, & 17:8.

All this indicates Daniel and the prophets are included among those whose names are written in the book of life. To declare otherwise is surely an affront to the prophets of Israel!

Hmm..

Maybe it fulfills a prophecy of Ezekiel: "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?" [Ezekiel 38:17] The hordes of Gog and Magog, riding upon horses, will come against the prophets of Israel, Ezekiel said. Horses represent people who lack understanding. [Psalm 32:9]

Could a modern military invasion of the area of Palestine be an assault on the "prophets of Israel"?

Quote
There is a breach in the visions of the prophets between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week .... there is nothing of earthly events recorded in visionary prophecy over the last 2,000 years up to this very day

IMO, this is another affront to the prophecies of Daniel!There can be no "gap" in the 70 weeks, as when Daniel said, in Daniel 9:11, that the "curse" was poured out on his people, as written in the law of Moses, the prophecy of the 70 weeks provides an explanation of the duration of the curse. Look at Leviticus 26; is there any lapse in the curse, till the last period of "seven times"? If there was a gap, it would mean all Israel had temporarily returned to God! But of course, that has not happened. The restoration of God's people is not temporary.

It could be, that the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26 is the final week of the 70 weeks, when Christ confirms his covenant with many. The last half of that week would be the symbolic "time, times and a half," and spans the entire age of the church.

Doug
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:13:59 PM by Doug »

Doug

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Re: "Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 10:41:48 PM »
Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2008
Leviticus has the most numbers of any book of the Bible, containing the dimensions of the tabernacle. The book with the second most numbers in it is Revelation. Surely if God intended us to count on a closing 7 years period called the great tribulation it would seem of all books in which He would speak of it would be the Revelation. But no! It's not there! However many, perhaps even if all of the 3 1/2 year periods pertain to the same period only repeatedly mentioned, ALL, I repeat ALL these numbers were actually mentioning not 7 but 3 1/2 year periods. That is a fact. (It was 7 or 8 times mentioned if you assume the "time, times and half a time" is included.)

The period of three years and six months was mentioned by Jesus:

Luke 4:24-26
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

It is also mentioned by James:

James 5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

In the New Testament, Elijah seems to be symbolic of the spirit of God; the prophecy about Elijah in Malachi, Jesus said, was fulfilled already, which his disciples understood to mean John the Baptist fulfilled Malachi's prophecy about Elias, which he did. The spirit of God was present in Jesus too.

Jesus said about John,

Luke 7:24-27
And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

The last bit is a quote from Malachi 3:1. When the spirit was given to the disciples, this was the same spirit the prophets had, the spirit of Christ. [1 Peter 1:11] John said, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Revelation 19:10]

In the days of Elijah, the Israelite King Ahab built a temple for Baal in Samaria. He married Jezebel, daughter of Ethbaal, the king of the Sidonians. She had the prophets of God killed, but Elijah was one who escaped. Elijah prayed that there would be no rain in Israel for three years and six months, as Jesus said.
   
The three and a half years of no rain in Israel, when Elijah remained in hiding, may be a type, or a figure, of the "time, times and a half" mentioned in Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, where it represents the age of the church, during which period, it is dominated by a sinister "little horn." This horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," which pictures a human viewpoint on things, as opposed to a divine one. The same time period is mentioned in Revelation 12:14. The two witnesses in Revelation chapter 11 shut heaven, as Elijah did, so that it does not rain. The "rain" is a symbol of God's word, which is compared to rain, see Isaiah 55:10-11 for example. The famine in Israel in the days of Elijah pictures the period of the church's ministry, in which no further revelation ("rain") is given. Elijah was sustained during the famine in the house of a gentile woman, in Sarepta, a city of Sidon. She was a widow, whose son Elijah revived. Some consider her to be a figure of the church. (Christ was revived from the grave.) The oil and meal did not fail in her house during the famine; oil is also a symbol of the spirit. Elijah eventually turned the people of Israel to the true God, and there was a great rain, after the sacrifice on Carmel. Because of Elijah, 450 prophets of Baal were killed.
   
The spirit of Elijah, that passed on to his successor Elisha [2 Kings 2:15], in the New Testament, is identified with the spirit of God; the prophecy about Elijah in Malachi is fulfilled by the work of the Spirit in the church. So, why does John refer to a period of 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, and "a time, times and a half" in Revelation 12:14? These are the remaining time of the church, the last half of "seven times." I suggest it is the final "seven times" in Leviticus 26, when God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and becomes reconciled to his people. And "seven times" is equivalent to the last "week" in the 70 weeks prophecy, in Daniel 9, in which Christ "confirms the covenant" with his church. (A "week" is "seven times.")

The "time, time, times and a half" is the last half of that "week." The first half of the week was the ministry of Jesus to the Jews, that seems to span about three and a half years. I take the last half week to be a symbolic three and a half years. This cannot be literal, as it is represented in three different ways; 1,290 days, 1,335 days, and 1,260 days. None of these numbers correspond to a literal three and a half years. And how can the days in a literal three and a half years be three different numbers?

Doug
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 10:46:52 PM by Doug »