Author Topic: Wondering  (Read 5962 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2011, 11:14:29 AM »
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.

Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
For me the verse strongly states believing without seeing gives blessings. Pehaps being part of the millenium Kingdom?
But most importantly; it doesn't mean that those that only believe when they see are doomed. Jesus was very friendly to Thomas. No indication at all Thomas would suffer for eternity.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2011, 03:13:32 PM »
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.

Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
For me the verse strongly states believing without seeing gives blessings. Pehaps being part of the millenium Kingdom?
But most importantly; it doesn't mean that those that only believe when they see are doomed. Jesus was very friendly to Thomas. No indication at all Thomas would suffer for eternity.

1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Those who believe are blessed now, because they realize what is happening.  That is how they are 'especially' saved.  This is related to them being in the Kingdom.  Yet all are still saved.

IMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
IMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.
Mmmm, I don't think that's true.
Some ET really seem to like the idea of torture. Atheists are at piece too because they don't believe in ET either.
That that's a lot of happy people that don't believe in salvation of all.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2011, 04:39:34 PM »
IMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.
Mmmm, I don't think that's true.
Some ET really seem to like the idea of torture. Atheists are at piece too because they don't believe in ET either.
That that's a lot of happy people that don't believe in salvation of all.

But I don't think that is true peace - do you?  Being at peace with the idea of your grandmother burning forever would seem to indicate a hard heart, not a peaceful heart.   :dontknow:

Accepting that its "ok" that your grandmother is burning forever - is that love?  :dontknow:

Love always protects.

Love never gives up.

JMHO

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2011, 04:59:02 PM »
Atheists, a huge group of people, don't believe in hell. So they are at peace.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2011, 05:18:37 PM »
Atheists, a huge group of people, don't believe in hell. So they are at peace.

Yes, that is peace.  Agreed.

However they also (effectively) believe in annihilation.

Not as peaceful as believing all will be at peace forever.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2011, 05:31:44 PM »
Dunno. Depends if they are scared of death...

Many Christians fear death too. Even if they think they/others are saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2011, 05:50:13 PM »
Dunno. Depends if they are scared of death...

Many Christians fear death too. Even if they think they/others are saved.

That is just a general fear of the unknown, which admittedly is what death is (unknown).  This is because of the mythology surrounding it - nothingness vs. eternal torture vs. eternal rock concerts & chocolate.  None of these is really "peaceful".

Christian or not, many do not have peace if they still fear death.

If we have faith and hope that all will be restored and brought together in harmony, IMHO I can't think of anything that brings more peace.  I suppose some will always say that the only true peace we could have is if they didn't exist, or no one existed.  But they are not seeing what God will do IMHO.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2011, 06:31:55 PM »
Where can I sign for an eternal rock concert?  :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2011, 02:47:27 AM »
To the question:

How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?

Molly answered:

Quote
Same way Thomas did, Hans.

So you are suggesting that Thomas was blotted out of the Book of Life, went to the 'other side' and then utilized faith to get back in? To me, this answer, does not  address the actual question asked. 


Offline Lefein

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2011, 02:55:51 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder...what exactly is the "Book of Life"?  Sure, I hear it is the record of those who are saved, but I think that perhaps, such a significant artifact in the Heavenlies held by God himself would surely be more than a mere ledger of guests "on the list".
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2011, 02:59:20 AM »
Honestly, I really think that's what we're all trying to figure out.  Lots of opinions, some evidence, some assumptions/extrapolations, but I've not seen everything in clarity (for myself) yet. 

Offline Molly

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2011, 03:52:33 AM »
To the question:

How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?

Molly answered:

Quote
Same way Thomas did, Hans.

So you are suggesting that Thomas was blotted out of the Book of Life, went to the 'other side' and then utilized faith to get back in? To me, this answer, does not  address the actual question asked.
No.  I'm suggesting your theory is wrong.  Thomas didn't believe until he saw, yet there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.'  He does get the somewhat notorious nickname of 'Doubter,' though. :icon_king:

Frankly, I didn't believe as an adult until I saw, either.  Faith is just another way of 'seeing' things.  We are blessed to be given that sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzdwwX3_SI4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 04:00:09 AM by Molly »

Offline Lefein

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2011, 03:59:19 AM »
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2011, 08:38:52 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder...what exactly is the "Book of Life"?  Sure, I hear it is the record of those who are saved, but I think that perhaps, such a significant artifact in the Heavenlies held by God himself would surely be more than a mere ledger of guests "on the list".

There is another thread here where the Book of Life is the primary focus. Check it out.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2011, 08:47:51 AM »
Molly

Quote
Thomas . . .  there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.'

That's my point, you cannot compare him to someone who has, which your answer assumed. 

Quote
I didn't believe as an adult until I saw,

Are you saying you have been blotted out, gone to the other side and "seen and experienced?"  That is the focus of the question.

The question was and is:

How can someone who has been blotted out and gone to the other side, seen and experienced what is 'over there', then use faith to get back in the Book of Life? That's the question.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2011, 08:50:32 AM »
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.

During the last two thousand years the overwhelming mass of people who have believed in Jesus have never seen Him, on this side of the veil.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2011, 12:20:42 PM »
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.
During the last two thousand years the overwhelming mass of people who have believed in Jesus have never seen Him, on this side of the veil.
That's correct.

YLTJohn 20
29 Jesus saith to him, `Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; happy those not having seen, and having believed.

The verse mentions two groups of believers. The red group is the group you mentioned.
But what about the blue group? Is there only one person (Thomas) in that group?
Imo, Jesus wasn't just speaking to Thomas. The verse is a teaching for whole mankind.
Then what exactly was that 'blue teaching'?

Personally I think Jesus was not pronouncing doom on Thomas.
Jesus called Thomas a believer.

YLTActs 16
31 and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved--thou and thy house;'

So everyone that believes is saved. Thomas didn't even believe by seeing. He needed to touch Him to believe.
But right now we can only believe without seeing, hearing or touching. --> Our first opportunity so to speak.
But when we can believe because we touch like Thomas? -> Our second opportunity.
I think that happens at the "every knee shall bow" event...



BTW the other apostles were not real believers either. They traveled 3 years with Jesus. They saw many miracles. And still they didn't believe He would be resurrected. Not even the women who reported it were believed.
Thomas needed seeing and touching. The others needed seeing. Far more as we have right now. But they are all saved.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 02:27:34 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM »
Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?


Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2011, 02:06:05 AM »
whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.. Rom. 10:13

IMO, it's an incorrect assumption this must occur in this age.  Millions are never even given that opportunity in this age - not their turn yet.

...every tongue confesses, all nations blessed, the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord, no more pain, no more tears, no more death - it all precludes ED or ET in my limited view.   If not, seems to me just the opposite of the above promises in the scriptures would be true.  :2c:

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM »
Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2011, 02:35:02 PM »
Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller.

All are saved but still filth won't enter heaven. Some purification must take place.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2011, 02:53:49 PM »
Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?

Its not necessarily about 'taking the option' but instead its about 'going through the process'.

Like WW said, everyone will be salted with fire.
All are judged in fire.
Judgment is for refinement and teaching righteousness.
All will be made righteous through Christ.

Its not an option.  :Sparkletooth:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2011, 04:45:58 PM »
whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.. Rom. 10:13

IMO, it's an incorrect assumption this must occur in this age.  Millions are never even given that opportunity in this age - not their turn yet.

...every tongue confesses,
In this life. After death is judgement

Quote
all nations blessed,
By having the opportunity to turn to Jesus.

 
Quote
the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord, no more pain, no more tears, no more death
For those that turned to Him. Hell is not on earth but in the sun's core...

There is always a way to twist things :winkgrin:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2011, 03:11:28 PM »
Molly

Quote
Thomas . . .  there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.'

That's my point, you cannot compare him to someone who has, which your answer assumed. 

Quote
I didn't believe as an adult until I saw,

Are you saying you have been blotted out, gone to the other side and "seen and experienced?"  That is the focus of the question.

The question was and is:

How can someone who has been blotted out and gone to the other side, seen and experienced what is 'over there', then use faith to get back in the Book of Life? That's the question.

If they call upon the lords name, and belive he can save them, then he will come to find his lost sheep.
Perhaps hades is not under the earth as such, but is deemed, under as in lower realms of existence compared to heaven. So if they are lost in space somehwhere, they can call upon Jesus and be saved.

Perhaps that's why Jesus said to the pharisees

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."