Author Topic: Wondering  (Read 5861 times)

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Offline Hansc

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Wondering
« on: February 08, 2011, 10:47:30 AM »
I remember a funny story.  In the Divine Comedy by Dante, he finally makes it to heaven.  Shortly upon his arrival a saint comes up to him and Dante asks the saint a question.  He asks him what the truth is about the  "free will/election" debate.  Dante assumes that once in heaven all the various things that we debate on this side of the veil of be answered.

The saint tells him, that the saints are still working on that one.  :dontknow:

So I wonder, do you believe that the things we debate or disagree on here, will be settled on the 'other side?" or not?

Will we still be debating these issues "over there?"

If you believe that the debate will continue after we leave this world, why?  :dontknow:

If you do not believe that the debate will continue after we leave this world, why?  :dontknow:

Hans 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 11:00:27 AM »
I think  many things will be answered; simply because you see/experience them.
But I don't think we know everything so there are things to learn. And learning often comes with discussing
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 11:09:56 AM »
I think  many things will be answered; simply because you see/experience them.
But I don't think we know everything so there are things to learn. And learning often comes with discussing

No doubt, the grand drama of eternity past is a lot to download, and there will always be a lot to learn, but I mean some of the more simple stuff that we discuss on this earth.

For example, the free will/election debate, the OSAS debate, the all saved or some saved debate. Will we continue on those easy items, or will those answers come pretty quick upon arrival over there?  If so why, if not why?

Offline CHB

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 03:56:30 PM »
I think we will pretty much know the answers to the questions you mentioned then.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 04:21:44 PM »
For example, the free will/election debate, the OSAS debate, the all saved or some saved debate. Will we continue on those easy items, or will those answers come pretty quick upon arrival over there?  If so why, if not why?
It will be answered very quickly. If you for example think muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer :winkgrin:
Or just ask Jesus. I'm sure He'll clarify any question.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 07:34:01 PM »
For me, we are still living in "flat-land" mentality wondering if Columbus ever landed on the bottom of the world since his voyage fell off the eddge.  Our abiility to perceive what will or won't go on in heaven while were still planted in this earh, is everything but accurate.  It's limited, flawed, twisted, blinded, deceived, misunderstood, on and on. 

What I do think will happen is, Jesus' prayer will be fully manifested in that we will all finally become "one" with the Father as he is one with the Son.  I used to think every person will immediately know every "thing" there is to know about everything.  But now, not so much.  It's not that I don't think everyone will know everything . . .I just think that no one will really care what they do or don't know because everyone will be so engaged with the Father and Son in us that everything else merely fails to compare in glory and importance.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 08:31:59 PM »
I hope so, learning is a pleasurable experience, I think perhaps that when we arrive with God, that will have access to the universal libary of God and have the capacity to understand them, it doesn't mean though, that we instantly know everything, just that everything is provided for us to explore and learn.
 :2c:

Offline marie glen

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 07:02:30 AM »
I think that all believers at salvation are sealed upon their heart with the seal of God, which is the pledge, seal. promise (2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14) that all He has promised will come to pass; the Spirit in our heart which cries "abba Father!" is that seal and proof we are saved (Romans 8:15,16); the seal of His ownership.

I believe there is a second seal upon believers, which will be the "seal on the forehead". It is spoken of in Revelation 7:3, that 144,000 of the tribes of Israel will be sealed.. There's something about 144,000 and 12 being the square root of 144, that makes this number an endless sort of number (I understood this at one time :laughing7:). All believers Paul wrote (in Romans) "are grafted into the House of Israel" (Revelation 12:5,6). This strongly suggests all believers will also receive this second sealing, which is upon the forehead. Our hearts are sealed at salvation, and our forehead or minds are sealed (unto Him) also.

And what else can this seal upon the forehead be, but 100% clarity, at least of the elemental things of truth, doctrine and Bible which we do not fully understand at this time. Everything upon Earth is like tapestries. And they are weaved with true and false threads. Threads of light and threads of dark. Truth and lies. But the sWord of the Spirit, the Word of God - "thy word is truth" -  (the tip of the sWord of Truth) is able to divide truth from lie, thread from thread. [Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12]
..."at his appearing, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he truly is" 1 John 3:2.
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- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 07:13:21 AM »
..To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ... Jude 1:1
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 10:23:53 AM »
White Wings

Quote
It will be answered very quickly. If you for example think Muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer

On the one hand, I think we will learn various things throughout eternity.

But like the Muslim response many of those questions will be answered pretty quickly.  We will know and experience it. 

Stuff like the belief that the streets are paved with gold. Over here, we could argue about it, some may claim that they really are gold pavers, others may argue that those bricks of gold are just metaphors.  However, once over there if you just get a pick and dig up a street you could pretty well settle the issue of gold bricks.

I think it also works like that with other things and not just bricks.

 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 10:25:55 AM »
in case you haven't noticed we not only 'wonder' here, we also 'wander'.   :laughing7:    sometimes we even get back on topic, such as with your last post.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 04:54:18 PM »
White Wings

Quote
It will be answered very quickly. If you for example think Muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer

On the one hand, I think we will learn various things throughout eternity.

But like the Muslim response many of those questions will be answered pretty quickly.  We will know and experience it. 

Stuff like the belief that the streets are paved with gold. Over here, we could argue about it, some may claim that they really are gold pavers, others may argue that those bricks of gold are just metaphors.  However, once over there if you just get a pick and dig up a street you could pretty well settle the issue of gold bricks.

I think it also works like that with other things and not just bricks.

 

Actually, I think that's a bit of a misunderstanding about the golden streets . . .Scripture never mentions "streets".  It states "street".  One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold.  I think they point to the same source . . .everything leads back to the Father.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 09:38:16 AM »
Nathan said:

Quote
Scripture never mentions "streets".  It states "street".  One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold.

Could it be one straight street or one street with many connected branches, so many avenues but all interlocked?  We could debate that here, but once on the other side, we will see and experience and the issue will be settled.

We will know if it is one straight street or one street with many branches but still counted as one street.  Or even if there are bricks of gold, or one solid mass of gold.

On this side, we have to buy into an interpretive narrative presentation.
On this side, we have to take these matters by faith.

On the other side we will know.
On the other side we will not have to take it by faith, because we will see and experience whether there are Muslims there, or bricks of gold, or one solid straight street.

If we will not need to take these things by faith over there, because we can see and experience.

Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible? 





 

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »
Hans have you seen the threads regarding faith of Jesus vs in Jesus?   Another mistranslation leading people to believe that we have any choice to make. Im sorry i cant provide reference right now maybe the others can chime in. Im on vacation and only have my iphone and its hard enough to follow threads let alone research

Offline Nathan

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »
Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible? 

What Christ are they rejecting?  I think most if not all, are rejecting someone's "image" of Christ rather than the true Christ.  I also think that as we continue to try to see "over there" from "over here" it'll only lead to more hard to answer questions.  Yet I believe that we've been given the ability to "see" over there "from" over here as we enter into a relationship of intimacy with the Father through Christ. 

"over there" is God's atmosphere.  I can't get into his atmosphere without first going through the one and only gate leading into it.  Just as carnal death in me now, leads to abundant life in this realm here and now, so also does natural death leads into spiritual life.  The thing most churches seem to not understand is WHENEVER any person has an encounter with the Father, that person is transformed. 

This is why I see the great white throne judgment as a place where dirt is removed and only the pure remains. Which is not saying bad people are destroyed and good people remain.  It's saying the dirt in ALL people is burned away so that only purity remains.  God is a consuming fire, anyone who approaches him become purified by him, plain and simple.

Gonna throw you a curve here, but many also embrace satan as an evil, spiritual entity.  And they beleive that as Job SEEMS to portray, satan could approach God and not be affected by being in the presence of God.  I can't accept that.  It's saying that God's presence isn't strong enough to overcome evil and that's just not the case.  At any rate . . .bottom line is, experiencng the great white throne will purify the heart of man, not destroy or eternally torment him.  Remember, where there is sin, grace abounds even more.

If the GWT was a place of destruction of men, where is the grace then applied if it's to abound even more than the sin in man?

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2011, 08:55:14 PM »
Hi HansC,

Just thought I would interject here...

Nathan said:

Quote
Scripture never mentions "streets".  It states "street".  One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold.

Could it be one straight street or one street with many connected branches, so many avenues but all interlocked?  We could debate that here, but once on the other side, we will see and experience and the issue will be settled.

We will know if it is one straight street or one street with many branches but still counted as one street.  Or even if there are bricks of gold, or one solid mass of gold.

On this side, we have to buy into an interpretive narrative presentation.
On this side, we have to take these matters by faith.

On the other side we will know.
On the other side we will not have to take it by faith, because we will see and experience whether there are Muslims there, or bricks of gold, or one solid straight street.

You are right in that we won't really know until we get there.  But we can make some pretty good guesses.  And it is based on our beliefs and faith.

IMHO it pretty much has to be symbolic.  A street is physical.  Gold is physical.  But the physical will pass away for the spiritual.

Quote
If we will not need to take these things by faith over there, because we can see and experience.

Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible?

I guess who's to say everything will be revealed all at once?  We don't know exactly what anyone will experience when they awake "on the other side".  What will be the first thing you see when you open your eyes after the resurrection?  What is the judgment?  What is the lake of fire?  When does everyone bow and confess and swear allegiance to Christ?  When does every creature praise God's name?  These things are sure to happen, but when, for how long - what will be revealed at each stage?  What specifically will happen in each stage?

"each in their own order" is a key phrase here - everyone is made alive, but each in their own order.  Not at the same time.

Lets hypothesize a bit further here.

God is making all people in His image.  His image is Love - patient, kind, not delighting in evil, faithful, always hoping, always protecting, persevering, never failing.  So faith is part of that (being faithful, always hoping).  These are the attributes of love - which is what God is.

Lets look at some of these attributes.  For example: "Always protecting" - by necessity, in order for us to be made in God's image - in order to understand how to always protect - there must be something we need protecting from.  This means by necessity there must be some evil in the world that we need to be protected from so that we learn how to protect.  Likewise in order to learn how to not delight in evil - evil must exist at least temporarily.  If it did not, we could not learn how to not delight in it

Now because of these two goals: learning how to always protect and how to not delight in evil (which is part of God's plan to make us in His image), it practically necessitates that there be much evil in this world and it also necessitates that many people in this world will not actually learn these things before they die.

However:  God's plan is still to make all people in His image!  Since this cannot happen for everyone before they die (as far as we can see) - it must happen after they are resurrected.

Which now brings me back to the question you were raising.  How can people learn faith after they have died?  Well if we stick with the hypothesis that God is making us in His image - then we can be rest assured that everyone will learn faith. I can imagine a thousand different scenarios in which that could be achieved.  Collectively I could call this the judgment they go through, or symbolically a 'lake of fire' experience.  Specifically, just hypothesizing, perhaps people are resurrected into a place where they need to learn faith in order to come to God.  Perhaps they are resurrected but not everything is revealed yet.  This could be accomplished through many different means, much in the same way it is accomplished in this life.

I guess the larger point here is that God has a plan, and God is using methods, causes, and means to bring that plan to fruition, and that plan does not necessarily stop at our physical death.  Certainly it does not because we know all are resurrected.  And certainly judgment is a large part of that plan.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2011, 09:08:33 PM »
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary.  Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side.  What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side.  But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished. 

I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm.  For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm. 

Offline legoman

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2011, 09:17:18 PM »
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary.  Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side.  What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side.  But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished. 

I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm.  For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.

Yes I think you may be right.  I mean, when God is finally "all in all" - then we will all know that we will enjoy peace and love forever.  Faith, hope, and love: but the greatest is love.

Also what redhotmagma says ties into it, I can't remember the thread as well, but I've seen it discussed before:

faith of Christ
vs.
faith in Christ

Faith is a gift - its not of ourselves.  Romans 3:3 comes to mind:
Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.

Romans is such a wonderful book.  From there we go on, learn that none are righteous - through Adam all were made sinners, but through Christ all will be made righteous.  God makes vessels of honor and dishonor for His purposes.  But its summed up in Romans 11.

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2011, 09:28:34 PM »
Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.

We just went through this last night in Genesis with Abram and Sarai.  God made the covenant with Abraham that he would multiply his seed to be greater numbers than the sands of the sea . . .but then Abraham went and took matters in his own hands and accepted Sarai's offering of her handmaid.  (Same as Eve offering Adam the fruit of knowledge . .it just 'seemed" like a logical thing to do . . .logic=reason=knowledge)  And as soon as she conceived the seed, rather than bonding as a family, she became divided against Sarai and Abram let Sarai judge her harshly . . so much so that she left the house.

Then it gets interesting . . .now that Abrams seed is in her, the covenant God made with Abraham, now applies to Hagar.  Not because of the deed, but because of the seed.  The covenant is in the seed.  Even though Abraham adulterated his relationship with Sarai, the seed still carried the covenant.  We have the seed of life in us, even though we may totally mess up the plan God has for us in our lives, he still honors the covenant in the seed within us.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 10:24:06 AM »
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary.  Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side.  What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side.  But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished. 

I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm.  For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.

That's how I see it too, and that is what creates the conundrum.

 How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?   :dontknow:

Offline Molly

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 10:32:32 AM »
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary.  Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side.  What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side.  But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished. 

I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm.  For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.

That's how I see it too, and that is what creates the conundrum.

 How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?   :dontknow:

Same way Thomas did, Hans.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Or, are you blotting out Thomas, too?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 10:36:14 AM »
I don't believe any of us have faith unless and until it's given to us by God.  It's His gift, not something we can conjure up or act on within ourselves.  Otherwise, we could boast.  (Most of us do or have, even though we have no right).  Thomas is a good example alright.  In another way, so is Paul.  Jesus found him, Saul wasn't looking for Jesus.  He was looking for some more Christians to kill.  God had other plans, and gave Saul exactly what he needed to become that vessel fit for service.  It was Paul's "turn" (I Cor. 15:23).

I believe only a few are given this faith to believe unto salvation now.  The rest later.  The Lake of Fire comes into "play" (our God's a consuming fire), some few/some many stripes, bringing to repentance when every knee bows, every tongue confesses.  Millions have never heard of Jesus on this side of the grave, and there's no Biblical support for "salvation by innocence", so....

Blessings. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:42:29 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2011, 10:53:02 AM »
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Nobody sees Jesus in this life. So doesn't that verse makes a strong case for after death repentance/conversion?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2011, 11:00:26 AM »
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.

Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Wondering
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2011, 11:10:29 AM »
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Nobody sees Jesus in this life. So doesn't that verse makes a strong case for after death repentance/conversion?

I'd say so.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It would be pretty hard not to do that if he were standing right in front of you.