Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[jabcat]

You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.

Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong.  Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything? 

IMO, although I'm not a Calvinist (those terms, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. can be all too easy to reach for in an attempt to label and/or discredit someone) I still believe he got many things right (minus eternal torment of most of humanity).   If only he'd have been able to see God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation.  :(    But really, it all happens for God's ultimate purpose.  I'm pretty sure He's got it figured out.   

[shawn]

You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.

Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong.  Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything? 

IMO, although I'm not a Calvinist (those terms, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. can be all too easy to reach for in an attempt to label and/or discredit someone) I still believe he got many things right (minus eternal torment of most of humanity).   If only he'd have been able to see God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation.  :(    But really, it all happens for God's ultimate purpose.  I'm pretty sure He's got it figured out.   

Minus eternal hell, I don't see much wrong with Calvinist thinking.  Being a "Calvinist thinker" almost seems to carry with it a stigma.  I do believe we were called, predestined, elected and all by no choice of our own.  This only becomes an issue when we say those who are not elected are going to burn in eternal hell fire.

[jabcat]

Yeah, Nathan, I agree.  As I was in some sort of mainstream Christianity all my life until the past few years when God dragged me away, I believe I have some insight into this.  Many people who don't identify as being "Reformed"/Calvinist (thankfully) just can't accept that God would only choose a few to save, while predestining the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment - all through no choice of their own.  So I believe they (I did) twist the scriptures to say "well, that must really mean foreknowledge - God knows who will choose Him".  The problems with that, IMO, are at least three-fold;  1) pre-destination and the elect are clear Biblical teachings, 2) the belief in eternal torment makes God's clear declarations of election of the ecclesia "unpalatable" to the point of denial, and 3) a need to see the ultimate reconciliation of all, so as to be able to see all scriptures reconcile with each other (still "working on it"  , things I still struggle with, for sure).   

He's the Good Shepherd.  99 is not enough.   

[Hansc]

Molly,

In response to my statement " I'm not going to go into . . . Calvinist doctrine of election here," 

You ask: "Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong. "

Primarily because I don't have the time, I cant get into a dissection of Calvinism. To this you ask me to comment on ALL five primary points of Calvinism. Each of the five can have a HUGE thread of it's own.  Let's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.

Molly

You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.

I don't.   

[Hansc]

Jabcat said

1) pre-destination and the elect are clear Biblical teachings,

While this is true on the surface, the problem comes when a person such as Calvin defines these terms.  By redefining terms a person can use the same word, but the underlying definition by being vastly different creates a different understanding.

Yes those terms are in there, but many people who believe that Calvin got a lot right  are still enchained by Calvin's lexicon.   

[Molly]

Let's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.

Ok, that's fair.  Even though we are not allowed to debate free will here, I would say that you believe everyone starts in the book of life and then are blotted out when they do not accept Christ, whereas Calvin says only the elect [those who will accept Christ because they are predestined to] are in the BoL.

Calvin has lots of predestination verses to support his side, and I suppose you have some verses too, but you both end up with the same people, by definition, being saved, that is, the elect who choose Christ.

Therefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?

Does it really matter whether those who choose Christ are predestined or have a choice?  The end result is the same.  If it makes a difference to you, tell me how.

[Hansc]

I really am limited for time, but since Calvin's thinking has so often come up, especially his definitions of 'election' and predestination, I'd thought I'd share a short portion of an interaction I had with a friend.

"Predestination is based almost exclusively on a poor translation of a Greek word.

In English we think that predestined means "it has been decided, and there is nothing we can do about it." But that is NOT what the Greek word means.

It really helps to know that the Greek word translated "predestined" means "planned in advance" (as in, God has a purpose for your life), but does NOT imply that what has been "planned in advance" WILL happen. It may happen, it may not. And whether or not it does is a function of free will. We CAN miss God's plan for our lives.

If you want to find God's purpose for your life, you are wanting to find out what He predestined for you. If you reject Him, you MISS what He predestined for you.

I don't think finding God's purpose for your life, and voluntarily trying very hard to fulfill that purpose is all that controversial.

Once you understand what it actually means, free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive ideas, thus there really isn't anything to argue about.

The word translated "predestined" is prooridzo. It occurs six times in the NT (Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, 11).

It literally means "to mark out a boundary in advance," and in practical meaning, that is "to plan in advance." It is derived from a verb that means "to mark out a boundary," from which we get our word "horizon" (as in, the horizon is the "boundary" or "limit" of how far we can see). The idea of "marking a boundary" has the meaning of "planning" in everyday language from the idea that a plan is something that metaphorically "draws a boundary around, or sets the limits of" our future actions.

The problem is that in ENGLISH, predestined means that what has been planned in advance WILL HAPPEN. There is nothing we can do about it. If God predestines something, it WILL happen.

That is NOT what this Greek word means.

It contains no inherent concept that the plan or boundaries that are drawn in advance WILL happen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. God has made a plan for our lives, WAY in advance of when we were even born. We can fulfil that plan, or we can reject God, and miss that plan.

Because of the "predestination" versus "free will" argument, most people think the two are contradictory (if one is true, the other cannot be true).

The irony is that "free will" and "predestination" go hand in hand. When God "predestined" us to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are told that He has made a wonderful plan for our lives to be LIKE His Son. We have the free will to accept or reject that plan.

So all "predestined" means is "to plan in advance."


The point is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible.  But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice"  This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination.  The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.

So, Yes, to true Biblical predestination.
NO, to Calvin's pre-determinism, falsely labeled as predestination.     

[Hansc]

Molly

Therefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?

No, without going into the TULIP, I disagree with Calvin on ALL five points of his interpretation. I think that Calvin has done a lot of damage to a true understanding of the Bible. Even many people, like you, who are NOT Calvinists STILL go by his mistaken definitions.


 I cant get into it here, for times sake, but I did post a short take on how I think Calvin messed up on predestination and consequently election.

[Molly]

point is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible.  But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice"  This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination.  The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.

So you are saying that when God predestines something to happen, it doesn't guarantee it will happen?  That we are somehow misunderstanding that word?

Let's look at some of the verses.


29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

--Rom 8


Here's two verses with that word in it. 

"predestinate"

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.


Let's look at the English definition of that word.

"predestinate"
predestine: foreordain by divine will or decree
foreordained: established or prearranged unalterably


So, your position, Hans, is that what God has established and foreordained unalterably by divine will can be altered by man?

[jabcat]

I'd like to quickly interject.  I DO believe the scriptures teach it's necessary to have personal faith, and place that faith in Jesus as Savior for salvation.  I just also believe the scriptures teach that faith is not ours, it's given to us by God, to whom and when HE chooses.  We DO need to get saved, but it's Jesus that does the saving - not our will, effort, faith, etc.  He gives us the ability to come to Him - to even breathe, for that matter.  I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus.  Really?

In Him we live and move and have our being.   

God bless.

[jabcat]

"...the greatest of these is love".   

[Taffy]

 I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus.  Really?

Personally I believe PAUL is The Type of Us ALL[ having ones EYES opened}

Blessings

[Nathan]

Oh, I believe Paul chose Jesus all right . . .the question is though "which" Jesus did he choose?  Did he choose the one whom the Father reveals to the hearts of men?  Or did he choose the one that is portrayed by flesh and blood?  I believe it to be both . . .Saul chose the image and Paul after a bit of donkey dumping . . .chose the true, the one that revealed His true nature to Paul.

[Molly]

"...the greatest of these is love".   

Someone should have told Calvin that while he was busy murdering all those who disagreed with him in the most brutal fashion imaginable.

Another reason why I am concluding that UR is the doctrine that most resembles the Father's heart.

[jabcat]

Yes, Taf and Mol.  I can agree Nathan, that Paul chose Jesus and placed his God-given faith in Him as Lord and Savior - once God initially chose him and provided him the faith and ability to do so - giving him eyes to see, as Taf said.     
 

[Nathan]

Which is the case for the entire race of man . . .God has called us, first and foremost, and those who are receptive to his call are born again and given the vision to "see" the Son for who he is . . love, life and light so that we all can become igniters of his love, grace, and mercy in, and toward others.

[Hansc]

Molly

That we are somehow misunderstanding that word?

Yes, I am saying that Calvin's mistranslation has resulted in a misunderstanding.

Many who correctly do not consider themselves Calvinist still unknowingly labor under the weight of Calvin's misrepresentation of the term predestination.

So, your position, Hans, is that what God has established and foreordained unalterably by divine will can be altered by man?

No that's not my position, but your very question hinges upon the mistaken idea that Calvin got his terms right.

Let's look at the English definition of that word.

I think the preceding post covered the difficulty of switching back and forth between English and Greek.

Jabcat

He gives us the ability to come to Him

True, but simply having the ability to do something does not indicate that a person MUST do it. God certainly will give a person the faith to believe, but he will not do your believing for you. I may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving.  Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it. 

[shawn]

I'd like to quickly interject.  I DO believe the scriptures teach it's necessary to have personal faith, and place that faith in Jesus as Savior for salvation.  I just also believe the scriptures teach that faith is not ours, it's given to us by God, to whom and when HE chooses.  We DO need to get saved, but it's Jesus that does the saving - not our will, effort, faith, etc.  He gives us the ability to come to Him - to even breathe, for that matter.  I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus.  Really?

In Him we live and move and have our being.   

God bless.

 

[jabcat]

This is where I come in with, God has a great big PLAN bigger than we've known, and He knows exactly how to bring it to pass.  We may struggle with some of the details, but He's made us those clear ultimate promises.  He has declared the end from the beginning, and the end of the Lord is merciful.  That's a blessing and relief!   


Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.  Is. 46:10

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  I Tim. 2:3,4     

[Molly]

I may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving.  Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it. 

Is that your experience of it?  My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.

I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.  They seem the same to me.  Something is foreordained by God unalterably.    If you break down the Greek word into the two words that comprise it, they mean ordained before [from the beginning].  You are trying to get some wiggle room out of that.  So did Jonah [I'm not going to that city].  So did Moses [ No way, I stutter].  I could even go so far as to say so did Jesus [Take this cup from me].  But, as God's elect, you are in heavy company.  There really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room.

[jabcat]

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,  For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable [can never be withdrawn].  Romans 11:28,29

[shawn]

I may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving.  Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it. 

Is that your experience of it?  My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.

I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.  They seem the same to me.  Something is foreordained by God unalterably.    If you break down the Greek word into the two words that comprise it, they mean ordained before [from the beginning].  You are trying to get some wiggle room out of that.  So did Jonah [I'm not going to that city].  So did Moses [ No way, I stutter].  I could even go so far as to say so did Jesus [Take this cup from me].  But, as God's elect, you are in heavy company.  There really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room.

That is my experience as well.  I have nothing within myself to do right, to seek God, to pursue Him.  When he grants me grace and mercy I have found ways to look for death.  But, yet this process is taking place that is outside of me, not of my own control and often it seems like I am just along for the ride. 

[shawn]

Let's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.

Ok, that's fair.  Even though we are not allowed to debate free will here, I would say that you believe everyone starts in the book of life and then are blotted out when they do not accept Christ, whereas Calvin says only the elect [those who will accept Christ because they are predestined to] are in the BoL.

Calvin has lots of predestination verses to support his side, and I suppose you have some verses too, but you both end up with the same people, by definition, being saved, that is, the elect who choose Christ.

Therefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?

Does it really matter whether those who choose Christ are predestined or have a choice?  The end result is the same.  If it makes a difference to you, tell me how.

And, I think that is the take home message.  Why squabble over details?  I see it this way, you see it that way but really both of our views are limited and most probably incomplete or wrong.  I do like a healthy debate but I totally get why the mods don't allow the FW discussion here anymore.  It only brings division and strife...rarely sharpening and love.

[jabcat]

Yep Shawn.


Alright, tying the OT and NT together;

Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.  Is. 46:10

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  I Tim. 2:3,4


Now beginning the NT.  Only a portion here.  I may move these later to their own thread, but posting them here for now to show all the promises surrounding the Book of Life, i.e., that there's more to the story/we may not know every detail - moved/removed/added back in, etc., and it all doesn't hinge on a complete understanding of that, IMO.  More later;

    
LUKE
   
2:10 but the angel reassured them. "Don't be afraid!" he said. "I bring you good news that will bring great joy to all people.
2:14 Glory to God in the highest,
      And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"
3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'
9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them
19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.
20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."
   
JOHN

1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."
---------------
6:37 those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.6:39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands
---------------

6:44,45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.  It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw (Greek, literal, DRAG) everyone to myself."
12:47 I will not judge those who hear me but don't obey me, for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.

ACTS
 
3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
3:25-26 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors. For God said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants all the families on earth will be blessed.'
   
ROMANS

8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
         "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
         HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
15:21 I have been following the plan spoken of in the Scriptures, where it says,
   "Those who have never been told about him will see,
      and those who have never heard of him will understand

God bless and speak to all who read.

[Hansc]

Molly

My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.

You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.

So you had someone other than you do your believing for you?  You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?

You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?

Shawn

That is my experience as well.

You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.

So you had someone other than you do your believing for you?  You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?

You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?

No doubt God is at work around us, but at the bottom line, it is for each individual to receive Christ by faith, while God will give you the faith, you still must be the one to actually take action, God will not make the confession for you, neither will it matter if others make the confession of faith for you. That is up to you, alone.

Molly

I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.

As I gave you a more detailed explanation of how the Greek term works.

They seem the same to me.

I'm sure they are since they are both based upon the Calvinist understanding. The better explanation of the Greek that I gave you comes from a friend that has the best command of Greek I've ever come across.

they mean ordained before [from the beginning].

I think we already covered that. Yes, the plans were laid in advance. Yes Jesus does have a wonderful plan for your life, but if a person rejects Him they miss the plan. Do you think that's controversial? I don't.

Think of it like this.

A parent plans on giving their kids a big chocolate cake Saturday night.  She has planned that it advance. She has preordained it. The cake is already cooked and in the cupboard.

She tells her kids about her preordained plan, and that IF they mow the lawn and clean the house then they will get what she has planned in advance for them.  When Sat night comes, two of the kids did their share but one did not.

She had preordained and planned in advance, in essence predestined that ALL three of her kids get the chocolate cake, but because of their choices only two kids get the chocolate cake and one is sent to bed without cake.

Only two got the cake, but it was still her preordained, planned in advance plan that ALL three get it.

Yes, God has planned a wonderful plan in advance for a person's life, but unless that person receives Christ then they will not experience God's plan for their life.