Author Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life  (Read 38048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2011, 04:01:58 AM »
Amen Molly.   For the first 35+ years of being a believer, I never believed in or understood predestination.  Having a "hell" mindset (but even then not believing God would just torch most of humanity with no "chance" of redemption) I distorted all the clear predestination verses to suit my beliefs, labeling them foreknowledge.  I certainly had no idea what being a priest or king was.  I hoped I just squeaked into heaven somehow.   :angelharp:


(The Noble Berean by Thomas J. Kissinger explains this well).   Since God (blessed be His name) showed me UR, I believe He's helped me see just a little how the ecclesia being called out/predestined fits His over-all PLAN, to use His bride as kings and priests to save His creation by ultimately vivifying all (...even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive I Cor. 15:22 YLT).     I AM NOT a Calvinist.  He believed most would be tortured forever by God's foreordained decree.   I believe God's going to redeem His whole creation - the ecclesia predestined, all else destined, through the process and to the time when God is All in All - when ALL are given faith to believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior.  Thank God His judgments lead to righteousness (Is. 26:9) and that the end of the Lord is mercy (Js. 5:11).

Thank God.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:29:24 AM by jabcat »

Offline Ross

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 214
  • Gender: Male
  • Gal2;20
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #151 on: February 11, 2011, 08:09:01 AM »
 :thumbsup:Right on
That sort of line of thought promotes a big picture of incredible detail and highlights a future with awesome potential and reality which is currently easy to say but hard to comprehend.
We see the detail of our current creation and are amazed. There is a new creation coming. That will supercede the current creation. We are part of that creation.
WOW!!!
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2011, 08:32:48 AM »
Bless you brother Ross.  Amen!  It's awesome and humbling.   :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2011, 09:19:28 AM »
No ideas/views on Reply #145 ?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2011, 09:30:30 AM »
Found something weird in TCB.
Rev 22:19 is about the Log of Life
a] Notice the caps usually used for divinity.
b] Log is not logbook (I think) because the commentary states it was formerly Tree of Life Gen 2:9, 3:22
c] All other verses in Rev are translated as Scroll of Life. Again notice the caps. (same for LoF...)

Some translations use Scroll. Others Book. That's no big deal but if in the same translation everytime it's Scroll of Life and the very last time it's Log of Life it's interesting at least.
Note#1: I checked a interlinear and I see no reason why this verse should be translated diffrently. - James can you check the Companion?
Note#2: scroll is allways written in lower case except when it is Scroll of Life then caps are used. (Divinity?)

Used verses
Rev 3:5
Rev 13:8
Rev 17:8
Rev 20:12
Rev 20:15
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:19
Phill 4:3

Just something my sleepy head noticed.

Good night.

Sorry, I missed the details of this.  I've painted for hours today and mostly just quickly checked in once in awhile during the day.

Yes, I remember seeing this about the Log of Life in TCB (for those that don't know, The Christian Bible (1991) is one of, if not THE most literal translation available).  So I believe it is significant that it says Log of Life (formerly Tree of Life).  They must have some insight into the Koine Greek on this that we haven't as yet touched on.  Good find.  I'll do some looking in the Christian Bible Companion.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2011, 09:46:27 AM »
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful.  Man, I'm really curious now.  Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself.  The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up?  However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know.  I'll research it some more.  Very interesting for sure. 

Offline Hansc

  • Full
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2011, 09:47:48 AM »
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes?  Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life?  Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?

Makes sense to me and I do think that's how it works.  That's why you don't ever see people being added, because everybody starts off already "in."  Adding people would simply be redundant.  When a person does receive Christ and establish a relationship with God, they simply remain in the Book and avoid being blotted "out'.

Offline Hansc

  • Full
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2011, 10:07:11 AM »
Which translation are you using for Revelation 22? Mine says :

βίβλος (biblos)

Which in the context of the time would be a scroll. I know we usually say 'book', but a scroll is simply a book in a different form.

Certainly when the fan has stopped its work, all the names remaining will be in the Lamb's scroll of Life, which are in the Lamb, Himself and are a log of their voyage from life unto LIFE.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2011, 10:12:35 AM »
He's talking about this one in particular.  There's a whole thread somewhere on the Christian Bible (1991, Christian Bible Society.)

(for those that don't know, The Christian Bible (1991) is one of, if not THE most literal translation available).  So I believe it is significant that it says Log of Life (formerly Tree of Life).  They must have some insight into the Koine Greek on this that we haven't as yet touched on.  Good find.  I'll do some looking in the Christian Bible Companion.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2011, 10:15:33 AM »
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful.  Man, I'm really curious now.  Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself.  The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up?  However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know.  I'll research it some more.  Very interesting for sure.
Admittingly I only checked 1 Greek version but I see no reason the translation should be different. (Biblos is every verse)
Maybe they have a different manuscript?

Log is strange. A tree is something that lives. A log is a dead piece of wood... :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2011, 10:19:51 AM »
and are a log of their voyage from life unto LIFE.
Log is logbook would make sense. But...
a] Why translate that one verse as Log and all others as Scroll
b] Commentary states it's not about a logbook (the way I read it)


James perhaps you can post the verse including the comment for hans
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2011, 10:22:43 AM »
don't have my Christian Bible in the house right now :(

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2011, 03:16:11 PM »
FYI the Concordant Literal also uses 'log of life'.  I was reading it yesterday same time WW was reading the TCB.  Coincidence?

Rev 22:2 In the center of its square, and on either side of the river, is the log of life, producing twelve fruits, rendering its fruit in accord with each month. And the leaves of the log are for the cure of the nations.

I thought that 'log' was just referring to 'tree'.  Didn't check the greek though.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2011, 03:30:27 PM »
FYI the Concordant Literal also uses 'log of life'.  I was reading it yesterday same time WW was reading the TCB.  Coincidence?
Compliment for me; insult for you  :bgdance:

Log is logbook or piece of wood. The TCB translator are very certain it's a piece of wood.
Logbook and piece of wood are not similar enough in Greek to accidently mix up the words.

But what is the significance of this find?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2011, 03:52:48 PM »
Rev 22:2 In the center of its square, and on either side of the river, is the log of life, producing twelve fruits, rendering its fruit in accord with each month. And the leaves of the log are for the cure of the nations.
There is only 1 Jesus so there can be only one Log.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg92482.html#msg92482
Rev 22:2 The cross of life standing on a island in the middle of the river.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2011, 04:25:59 PM »
ww, the Book of Life = the Tree where the branches are being grafted in and broken off=the Tree of Life=the Cross?  :mshock:

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2011, 04:42:52 PM »
Regarding this whole thread:

If it is shown some that some are never in the Book of Life - would that mean that some are never saved?

IMHO I don't think so.

I think the dual-name concept should be investigated more.

When one is converted - they are given a new name.
Saul was converted to Paul.
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.

And so it goes for every human?

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2011, 04:52:18 PM »
ww, the Book of Life = the Tree where the branches are being grafted in and broken off=the Tree of Life=the Cross?  :mshock:
Jesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.



Menora = a combination of Olive and almond tree design = Tree of life
Fig tree was = tree of good and evil.

It can be reasoned that:
a] Jesus was nailed to a fig tree because what the 1st Adam stole the last Adam put back. = grafted back in.
b] Jesus was crucified on the Mt of Olives not the mount of figs.

I lean toward b]
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2011, 04:59:16 PM »

Quote from: Legoman
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.

Well, yeah, he was.  He tells us he was.  He tells us God set him apart before he was born.

New International Version (1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased

New Living Translation (2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him

English Standard Version (2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
 
--Gal 1:15

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2011, 05:03:19 PM »
ww,  I understand the different trees.

But, he was nailed to a living tree?  Where do you get that?

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #170 on: February 11, 2011, 05:17:13 PM »
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful.  Man, I'm really curious now.  Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself.  The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up?  However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know.  I'll research it some more.  Very interesting for sure.
Admittingly I only checked 1 Greek version but I see no reason the translation should be different. (Biblos is every verse)
Maybe they have a different manuscript?

Log is strange. A tree is something that lives. A log is a dead piece of wood... :dontknow:

WW, I think you are right about this.  My opinion is, the tree of life is Christ but the book of life is his life, including his chosen people from the foundation of the world. Now later, if I read something different that makes more sense than this I may change my mind.

legoman wondered if those whose names are not written in the book of life would be saved?  We know they will be saved, since all will be saved.

I was thinking this, sometimes when a family member does something that the rest of the family looks down on, the rest of the family will disown them. After they straighten up, usually the family will welcome them back in, remember the prodigal son? Could this be why and how some are blotted out of the book of life? God did say, those who sin against me, I will blot his name out of the book of life.  I pray you guys and girls can figure this all out, I see little flaws in all of our reasonings, including mine.

CHB

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #171 on: February 11, 2011, 05:20:21 PM »

Quote from: Legoman
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.

Well, yeah, he was.  He tells us he was.  He tells us God set him apart before he was born.

New International Version (1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased

New Living Translation (2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him

English Standard Version (2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
 
--Gal 1:15

But that is Paul speaking.

I guess the question is: why two names?  Why Saul & then Paul?  Which name is written in the Book of Life?  Both Saul & Paul?  Or just Paul?

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #172 on: February 11, 2011, 05:25:12 PM »
ww,  I understand the different trees.

But, he was nailed to a living tree?  Where do you get that?
Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011

http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html

    Acts 5:30      "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 10:39     "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 13:29     "they took him down from the tree"
    1 Peter 2:24   "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
    Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"



BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13059
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2011, 05:27:54 PM »

Quote from: Legoman
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.

Well, yeah, he was.  He tells us he was.  He tells us God set him apart before he was born.

New International Version (1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased

New Living Translation (2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him

English Standard Version (2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
 
--Gal 1:15

But that is Paul speaking.

I guess the question is: why two names?  Why Saul & then Paul?  Which name is written in the Book of Life?  Both Saul & Paul?  Or just Paul?
Paul said he was in BoL. Not Saul.
The new man is/was in BoL. Not the old man.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #174 on: February 11, 2011, 05:31:25 PM »

Quote from: Legoman
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.

Well, yeah, he was.  He tells us he was.  He tells us God set him apart before he was born.

New International Version (1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased

New Living Translation (2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him

English Standard Version (2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
 
--Gal 1:15

But that is Paul speaking.

I guess the question is: why two names?  Why Saul & then Paul?  Which name is written in the Book of Life?  Both Saul & Paul?  Or just Paul?
Oh, I see what you're saying--I think.  You're saying Paul was written in the BoL before he was born, not Saul.

He's talking here about 'God reveal[ing] his Son in me.' 

Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus.  Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant.  It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:

15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth],  but not revealed....

"reveal"

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.


This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 05:37:16 PM by Molly »