Author Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life  (Read 37952 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #125 on: February 10, 2011, 03:29:22 AM »
Psalm 1
 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

 2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

 3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

 4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

 6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.



Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2011, 03:30:03 AM »
Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.

But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
 :icon_jokercolor:

WW, I see what you are saying now, sometimes Im a bit slow, please be patient God isn't finished with me yet.

I have been gone all day, so may have missed a post or two.


In answer to "the way you see things".
a] I agree with.
b] I don't agree with.

One reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.   
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place.  Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.

Just last week a friend and I were talking about "from the foundation and before the foundation of the world".  According to what we have found, we the body, was predestined before the foundation of the world and Israelites the bride, were chosen from the foundation of the world. I believe there is a difference as you have began to see. 

CHB


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #127 on: February 10, 2011, 05:33:09 AM »
CHB how can the bride be Israel, if by Israel you mean the Jews or the ancient Israelites, when Paul himself says that the bride is the church [ekklesia]?



31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--Eph 5


2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

--2 Cor 11




Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2011, 06:01:54 AM »
Summarizing some of my various thoughts and incorporating things I've read from others-

Given all that's been discussed the past 24 hours, including the bride, the elect, and the Book and Lamb before and from the foundation of the world - could there be the Book of Life AND the Book of the Lamb?  And they be for 2 different groups/purposes?  (also it's mentioned there are multiple writings/lists)

If God is "whittling down" the Book of Life, it appears that does lead to a crucial "next phase" of things in God's time-table.  However, we see many things happening after that, i.e., Ultimate Reconciliation.  Every tongue confessing Jesus as Lord, EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER.

In Revelation, where there's the OP's "accounting" of the Book of Life (which thought by ET and ED believers to support their view);

Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2

Whereas Paul's accounts shows there's much to occur after that, that the Book of Life/Lake of Fire events are not the end of the story, but rather steps in the whole process.  It's there we see much of the picture of the Ultimate Reconciliation;  (I Cor. 15:22-28)

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:31:51 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2011, 06:24:24 AM »
One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus is the 'author' of our perfection.

He's the one writing the book.  That would mean the book is us.


Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.




9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

 11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

--Heb 5

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2011, 07:37:47 AM »
Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.

But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
 :icon_jokercolor:

WW, I see what you are saying now, sometimes Im a bit slow, please be patient God isn't finished with me yet.

I have been gone all day, so may have missed a post or two.


In answer to "the way you see things".
a] I agree with.
b] I don't agree with.

One reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.   
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place.  Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.
I can't answer that. But I can repeat a question I asked before:
If God is alknowing why did He make the mistake of putting names in BoL while He should have known they will be taken out.
I think it's best to clarify the above. I don't say God has limitations. I'm saying mankind has no clue what the verse means. And, dear CHB, that included womenkind :laughing7:

Quote
Just last week a friend and I were talking about "from the foundation and before the foundation of the world".  According to what we have found, we the body, was predestined before the foundation of the world and Israelites the bride, were chosen from the foundation of the world. I believe there is a difference as you have began to see.
The Bible also says Father loved the Son and gave all things in His hands. (famous all word...) So from that pov all sheep are in BoL. But they run away and are no longer in the fold/BoL.
CHB I don't have the answer. I just have some feeling that's based on verses but I can't prove with scientific accuracy. Anyway your post gave me a few more idea's. Flawed ones but I think a starting point to work with

BoL=elect=First Fruits=Sheep fold=Bride=wedding book
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2011, 07:45:45 AM »
Summarizing some of my various thoughts and incorporating things I've read from others-

Given all that's been discussed the past 24 hours, including the bride, the elect, and the Book and Lamb before and from the foundation of the world - could there be the Book of Life AND the Book of the Lamb?  And they be for 2 different groups/purposes?  (also it's mentioned there are multiple writings/lists)
The way I see it no.
The verse seems to be clear there is 1 BoL and a unmentioned amount of books in which works are record.

I have some problems with the grammar of the verse but one thought keeps going through my head.
BoL is no book. BoL=Jesus.
Jesus has so many poetic names.
Son of God. Son of Mankind. Living Water. The Tree of life. The shepherd. The Lamb. Etc Etc.
Remember that we are created in Jesus. The only way to Heaven/Father is through Jesus. Bit playing with words but when one goes through something s/he is at a certain point in that something.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2011, 08:23:42 AM »
Quote from: ww
BoL is no book. BoL=Jesus.

Yes!

The book of life is the Christ.  The Christ, in the sense of anointed one,  is a hologram.



Ephesians 5:30

 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



10For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

--Eph 2

"workmanship"

G4161
ποίημα
poiēma
poy'-ay-mah
From G4160; a product, that is, fabric (literally or figuratively): - thing that is made, workmanship.



... that he may be the firstborn of many brothers.

--Rom 8:29

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 08:31:14 AM by Molly »

Offline Hansc

  • Full
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2011, 09:22:39 AM »
Chb said

Quote
One reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.   
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place.  Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.

Blotting them out would qualify as them then being separated, or in a different place. Because people are blotted out does not necessarily mean that they must be written somewhere else.

 
Quote
why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.

Maybe the Calvinist doctrine of election has serious flaws?
Perhaps the Calvinist understanding of "predestination" misrepresents true Biblical predestination and is more akin to a carnal philosophical determinism.   

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2011, 01:09:14 PM »
This is interesting.  There is a register of the house of Israel.  The Eze passage says that false prophets and divinators will be excluded from the register [blotted out?].  The Ezra passage says those not found in the register are excluded from the priesthood because they are unclean.

Remember, Israel is a chosen nation, an elect nation.  But, there is then a question of who is enrolled in Israel.  God talks about making them a nation of priests.  Then in the NT,  Paul talks about some of the branches broken off [blotted out?] and the wild branches grafted in [added to the BoL?].  The Israelites cannot be a nation of priests without Jesus whom they have rejected.  But Paul says because of election they will be saved.

Another aspect to the book of life, in addition to referring to those who will participate in the first resurrection and aionios life, must also be referring to the Melchizedec priesthood, a priesthood based on an eternal[aionios] life.  Only the first resurrection will be the Melchizedek priesthood?  They will rule and reign with Jesus, the high priest.  They are the royal priesthood [both king and priest] referred to in 1 Peter.



This refers to the false prophets and divinators who will not be enrolled in the register of Israel.

Ezekiel 13:9

9My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.



This is referring to the ones returning from the Babylonian exile who cannot be found in the register.

Ezra 2:62

62These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.


This refers to the unregenerate wicked who are blotted out of the register of Israel.

...and let them not come into thy righteousness.

 28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

--Psa 69



These are the ones who are written into the book of life and remain there.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen [eklektos] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


The book of life is a register of the holy nation of priests--Zion!



19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

--Luke 10

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:38:04 PM by Molly »

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2011, 04:02:09 PM »
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes?  Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life?  Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5995
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2011, 06:49:18 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus is the 'author' of our perfection.

He's the one writing the book.  That would mean the book is us.


Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.




9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

 11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

--Heb 5

"He's the one writing the book.  That would mean the book is us."  Molly I believe that the Lord has given you the wisdom and first step we need to begin to understand the Book of Life.
2Co 3:2  our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3  manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
2Co 3:4  and such trust we have through the Christ toward God,
2Co 3:5  not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God,


Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2011, 07:42:51 PM »
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes?  Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life?  Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/

This is interesting.  There is a register of the house of Israel.  The Eze passage says that false prophets and divinators will be excluded from the register [blotted out?].  The Ezra passage says those not found in the register are excluded from the priesthood because they are unclean.

Remember, Israel is a chosen nation, an elect nation.  But, there is then a question of who is enrolled in Israel.  God talks about making them a nation of priests.  Then in the NT,  Paul talks about some of the branches broken off [blotted out?] and the wild branches grafted in [added to the BoL?].  The Israelites cannot be a nation of priests without Jesus whom they have rejected.  But Paul says because of election they will be saved.

Another aspect to the book of life, in addition to referring to those who will participate in the first resurrection and aionios life, must also be referring to the Melchizedec priesthood, a priesthood based on an eternal[aionios] life.  Only the first resurrection will be the Melchizedek priesthood?  They will rule and reign with Jesus, the high priest.  They are the royal priesthood [both king and priest] referred to in 1 Peter.



This refers to the false prophets and divinators who will not be enrolled in the register of Israel.

Ezekiel 13:9

9My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.



This is referring to the ones returning from the Babylonian exile who cannot be found in the register.

Ezra 2:62

62These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.


This refers to the unregenerate wicked who are blotted out of the register of Israel.

...and let them not come into thy righteousness.

 28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

--Psa 69



These are the ones who are written into the book of life and remain there.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen [eklektos] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The book of life is a register of the holy nation of priests--Zion!

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
--Luke 10

  :goodpost:   :2thumbs:


Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2011, 07:52:59 PM »
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/


Um. . .not sure what you were trying to say by posting this.  It's not a thread, it's a page of threads . .which one is it that you thought I should be reading?

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »
don't be so lazy.  read them all.   :laughing7:


Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2011, 09:20:56 PM »
my bad, it was supposed to be this one.

just my beliefs on  it...there are still probably things I need to learn about it, but that's where i am now

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116673.html#msg116673

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2011, 09:42:54 PM »
Hi All,

I haven't read every post but I think I have a different view of this than any one else here.
My  :2c: for what they are worth.

I believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel. Well, in fact the whole Bible is. Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites, since they were the chosen nation? Now, I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book, that is why it mentions "names not written in the book of life", they are not Israelites.  When a name is blotted out it means they either died, or are not considered an Israelite. This is why Moses was willing for his name to be blotted out (Ex. 32:32-33) (Psalms 69:28). 

Here God threatened to blot out the whole nation.(Deut. 9:14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and BLOT OUT THEIR NAME from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater then they.

CHB

If I see it symbolically and the Israeliites REPRESENT believers and Gentiles REPRESENT unbelievers . . .then yeah, I could maybe see that the book of life would hold only Israeltes names in it . . .but I can't accept that the Book of Life is literally only full of Jews.  the name of the book is not "Book of Jews/Israelites".  If there be life in a Gentile . . .his signed-nature is in that book. 

As far as that goes, the moment we allow ourselves to be transformed by the invitation of Christ in our hearts, we go from being Gentiles, both literally and spiritually . .to Jews . . .spiritually.  We are all spiritual Jews, the New Jerusalem is a city that consists of all those who've given themselves over to the cross.  It's a spiritual city full of spiritual lives even though we still have hands and feet of flesh, we can see from our inward parts that we are a part of that New city as well.

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2011, 09:49:42 PM »
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes?  Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life?  Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?

Yes that always throws a wrench in the works, doesn't it?  This is where we get into trouble into trying to understand the book of life and such.  Surely all babies must are foreknown to die as babies must be in the BoL.  Which then leads some to believe that everyone must be in the book of life, and then later are blotted out.  But there are problems with that view as well... as has been discussed previously...



Why is it that it is so very horrific to think that there might be babies burning forever in some eternal hell?  And the answer is of course because that is a very affront to our human compassion to think of a poor helpless baby suffering forever, or worse, being physically burned forever.  Horrible.  Tradition tells us that all must believe before they die or they will spend eternity in endless suffering.  Except for the babies - because that would just be too horrible.

But why is this too horrible for a baby to endure, yet it is not too horrible for a grandmother to endure?  We think to ourselves, surely God would not let a helpless baby suffer forever.  Yet He would allow a sweet old grandmother to endure the same fate?  That is reasoning gone bonkers.

We see this type of doctrine of "exceptions" extended further depending on who you talk to.  It is all based on human reason and compassion (which IMHO is not always a bad thing).

babies will not go to hell - they couldn't make a choice
mentally ill people will not go to hell - they don't understand
people who never heard the gospel will have a chance after death (ie. those in the dark ages, living in foreign countries, desert island, etc)

But why stop there?
What about teenagers who die, that were raised in bad families who never had a chance to understand?  They deserve to get out of hell just as much as the babies.
Likewise, what about atheists, who were never even given faith to believe?  Surely if they had been given enough faith they would have believed.

So we can see this same type of reasoning can be extended to include everyone who hasn't believed in this life.
At the very least we must concede that people can be saved after death - because we know that none are righteous, not even little babies.  Unless you think babies are burning in hell.

And this all throws a wrench in the works of what we think the Book of Life is about.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2011, 10:06:31 PM »
God Has Not Rejected His People
 1Am I saying that God has turned his back on his people? Certainly not! I am one of the people of Israel, and I myself am a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel? 3He said, "Lord, they killed your prophets and destroyed your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me."

    4But the Lord told Elijah, "I still have seven thousand followers who have not worshiped Baal." 5It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers. 6This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness.

    7This means that only a chosen few of the people of Israel found what all of them were searching for. And the rest of them were stubborn, 8just as the Scriptures say,

   "God made them so stupid

   that their eyes are blind,

   and their ears

   are still deaf."

    9Then David said,

   "Turn their meals

   into bait for a trap,

   so that they will stumble

   and be given

   what they deserve.

    10Blindfold their eyes!

   Don't let them see.

   Bend their backs

   beneath a burden

   that will never be lifted."

   

Gentiles Will Be Saved
 11Do I mean that the people of Israel fell, never to get up again? Certainly not! Their failure made it possible for the Gentiles to be saved, and this will make the people of Israel jealous. 12But if the rest of the world's people were helped so much by Israel's sin and loss, they will be helped even more by their full return.
    13I am now speaking to you Gentiles, and as long as I am an apostle to you, I will take pride in my work. 14I hope in this way to make some of my own people jealous enough to be saved. 15When Israel rejected God, [a] the rest of the people in the world were able to turn to him. So when God makes friends with Israel, it will be like bringing the dead back to life. 16If part of a batch of dough is made holy by being offered to God, then all of the dough is holy. If the roots of a tree are holy, the rest of the tree is holy too. 17You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it. And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree. 18But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you.

    19Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place. 20That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid. 21If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you?

    22Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.

    23If those other branches will start having faith, they will be made a part of that tree again. God has the power to put them back. 24After all, it wasn't natural for branches to be cut from a wild olive tree and to be made part of a cultivated olive tree. So it is much more likely that God will join the natural branches back to the cultivated olive tree.

   

The People of Israel Will Be Brought Back
 25My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in. 26In this way all of Israel will be saved, as the Scriptures say,
   "From Zion someone will come

   to rescue us.

   Then Jacob's descendants

   will stop being evil.

    27This is what the Lord

   has promised to do

   when he forgives their sins."

    28The people of Israel are treated as God's enemies, so that the good news can come to you Gentiles. But they are still the chosen ones, and God loves them because of their famous ancestors. 29God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen.

    30At one time you Gentiles rejected God. But now Israel has rejected God, and you have been shown mercy. 31And because of the mercy shown to you, they will also be shown mercy. 32All people have disobeyed God, and that's why he treats them as prisoners. But he does this, so that he can have mercy on all of them.

    33Who can measure the wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God? Who can understand his decisions or explain what he does?

    34"Has anyone known

   the thoughts of the Lord

   or given him advice?

    35Has anyone loaned

   something to the Lord

   that must be repaid?"

    36Everything comes from the Lord. All things were made because of him and will return to him. Praise the Lord forever! Amen.

   
Romans 11

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #144 on: February 10, 2011, 10:49:46 PM »
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes?  Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life?  Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?

Yes that always throws a wrench in the works, doesn't it?  This is where we get into trouble into trying to understand the book of life and such.  Surely all babies must are foreknown to die as babies must be in the BoL.  Which then leads some to believe that everyone must be in the book of life, and then later are blotted out.  But there are problems with that view as well... as has been discussed previously...



Why is it that it is so very horrific to think that there might be babies burning forever in some eternal hell?  And the answer is of course because that is a very affront to our human compassion to think of a poor helpless baby suffering forever, or worse, being physically burned forever.  Horrible.  Tradition tells us that all must believe before they die or they will spend eternity in endless suffering.  Except for the babies - because that would just be too horrible.

But why is this too horrible for a baby to endure, yet it is not too horrible for a grandmother to endure?  We think to ourselves, surely God would not let a helpless baby suffer forever.  Yet He would allow a sweet old grandmother to endure the same fate?  That is reasoning gone bonkers.

We see this type of doctrine of "exceptions" extended further depending on who you talk to.  It is all based on human reason and compassion (which IMHO is not always a bad thing).

babies will not go to hell - they couldn't make a choice
mentally ill people will not go to hell - they don't understand
people who never heard the gospel will have a chance after death (ie. those in the dark ages, living in foreign countries, desert island, etc)

But why stop there?
What about teenagers who die, that were raised in bad families who never had a chance to understand?  They deserve to get out of hell just as much as the babies.
Likewise, what about atheists, who were never even given faith to believe?  Surely if they had been given enough faith they would have believed.

So we can see this same type of reasoning can be extended to include everyone who hasn't believed in this life.
At the very least we must concede that people can be saved after death - because we know that none are righteous, not even little babies.  Unless you think babies are burning in hell.

And this all throws a wrench in the works of what we think the Book of Life is about.

It wasn't due to it just being too horrible.  It was due to the fact that they are still in their innocense, they've not chosen, nor have they rejected because they aren't old enough to know right from wrong.  We are born in a realm of sin in innocense, but without the invitation to Christ, sin will rule . . . sin merely means to miss the mark.  Without Christ, the child grows up never realizing God has marked the minds of men with his redemptive hand.  And until they do, they/we continue to walk according to our own reasoning. 

Of course none of this really is an issue now as where I am now, I see that the veil of death that we go through when passing from this realm to the next is the same veil a child who died early would also go through.  Taking hell out of the equasion changes a lot of areas that used to be of great concern, now they are irrelevant as the final destination is the same for all due to the power of the cross.

That's still something that boggles the mind.  But the seed of life is in us and because of that seed, the covenant of God is honored by God and grace abounds all the more.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13058
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #145 on: February 10, 2011, 11:03:19 PM »
Found something weird in TCB.
Rev 22:19 is about the Log of Life
a] Notice the caps usually used for divinity.
b] Log is not logbook (I think) because the commentary states it was formerly Tree of Life Gen 2:9, 3:22
c] All other verses in Rev are translated as Scroll of Life. Again notice the caps. (same for LoF...)

Some translations use Scroll. Others Book. That's no big deal but if in the same translation everytime it's Scroll of Life and the very last time it's Log of Life it's interesting at least.
Note#1: I checked a interlinear and I see no reason why this verse should be translated diffrently. - James can you check the Companion?
Note#2: scroll is allways written in lower case except when it is Scroll of Life then caps are used. (Divinity?)

Used verses
Rev 3:5
Rev 13:8
Rev 17:8
Rev 20:12
Rev 20:15
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:19
Phill 4:3

Just something my sleepy head noticed.

Good night.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 07:28:35 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #146 on: February 10, 2011, 11:05:23 PM »
It wasn't due to it just being too horrible.  It was due to the fact that they are still in their innocense, they've not chosen, nor have they rejected because they aren't old enough to know right from wrong.  We are born in a realm of sin in innocense, but without the invitation to Christ, sin will rule . . . sin merely means to miss the mark.  Without Christ, the child grows up never realizing God has marked the minds of men with his redemptive hand.  And until they do, they/we continue to walk according to our own reasoning. 

Indeed - I agree.  They are in innocence, they don't know right & wrong.  Even with older kids - they are learning right & wrong, but they aren't responsible yet.  How can you be responsible for something you don't know.

Yet tradition proclaims:  MAKE A CHOICE FOR CHRIST OR BURN FOREVER (excuse the shouting!  :bigGrin:).

Then they have to add "except if you are not responsible" - which covers babies and young children.  But again why stop there - how is any of us "responsible" for our own salvation?  That would mean we could boast.

Quote
Of course none of this really is an issue now as where I am now, I see that the veil of death that we go through when passing from this realm to the next is the same veil a child who died early would also go through.  Taking hell out of the equasion changes a lot of areas that used to be of great concern, now they are irrelevant as the final destination is the same for all due to the power of the cross.

That's still something that boggles the mind.  But the seed of life is in us and because of that seed, the covenant of God is honored by God and grace abounds all the more.

 :thumbsup:  Exactly.  Once you realize there is no place of hopeless endless suffering, your perspective changes and other things begin to make sense.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2011, 01:42:29 AM »
(Amen Molly, wonderful scrips!)
-----------------------------

I believe all must go through Jesus.  I don't believe I see a "salvation of innocence" anywhere.  I see it that the post I quoted to Nathan a few posts back about babies fits with the message of UR.  It also seems to fit with the predestination of the ecclesia and God ensuring their endurance (as opposed to attempting to explain away those verses by saying they mean "foreknowledge");  as God is setting the ecclesia aside (called out) for a purpose - to use us to help bring the rest in as God "demonstrates His kindness/mercy in the ages to come".  So as all go through Jesus to get to the Father, each in their own time (order), and each according to their own need (few stripes/many stripes);  so then the Book of Life is one ( major) step in multiple steps to God becoming All in All.   :2c:



It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy  Rm. 9:16




« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 02:59:25 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9096
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2011, 02:00:08 AM »
All names written in the Book of Life, based on innocence, then whittled down as we sin or reject God?  I may of course be wrong, but I have doubts about that.


Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."  Ps. 51:5

...by nature children of wrath.  Ephesians 2:3

I don't see babies, or the mentally retarded etc. needing a lot of correction (like many might to get to the place of repentance).  Or even the person in Bora Bora that never even heard the name of Jesus.  Still, I believe there will be a time of at least recognition of Who He Is and an acceptance/belief and kneeling and confessing (everyone will  Phil 2:10,11);

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  Jn. 14:6

« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 02:23:28 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2011, 02:48:23 AM »
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
--Rev 5:10


3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

   To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

--Rev 1



one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

--Heb 7:16