Author Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life  (Read 40074 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2011, 04:26:48 PM »
Exactly C.  Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women  :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
Everyone will be grafted into the tree of life. Eventually. First the first fruits = elect - peepz in Book of Life.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2011, 07:27:30 PM »
Exactly C.  Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women  :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.

Why do you say that?

Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?

What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved? The book of life does not determine who is saved and who is not. After all, all Israelites will be saved.

Quote from: WhiteWings
Everyone will be grafted into the tree of life. Eventually. First the first fruits = elect - peepz in Book of Life.
 :2c:

The way I see this is, we Gentiles no longer have to be grafted into Israel, we are in God because of what Jesus accomplished. In the beginning, according to the NC, Gentiles had to be grafted in, but after the Mystery was revealed Paul came to see that we no longer need to be grafted in to Israel, now we are the children of God, not children of Israel.  Now, the way to salvation is through Christ, not Israel.

CHB

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2011, 08:21:35 PM »
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise


# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


I personally don't understand what exactly it means to be the seed of Abraham, but I know that something happens which transfers his blessings to us, because of Christ. It is a promise that Christ made to Abraham and by being and claiming to be his seed we provoke God, to pour his blessings upon us, due to his word to Abraham that cannot be cancelled.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 08:25:06 PM by thinktank »

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2011, 08:23:28 PM »
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise


# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes.

Meaning Abraham had Christ in him, the hope of glory.  Just like we do.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2011, 08:25:50 PM »
Exactly C.  Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women  :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.

Why do you say that?
See below.

Quote
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 09:25:03 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2011, 08:28:11 PM »
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise


# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes.

Meaning Abraham had Christ in him, the hope of glory.  Just like we do.


Romans 11:17 (New International Version, ©2010)

 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2011, 08:31:54 PM »
PS Abraham was a Gentile.  His father was a pagan.

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

"nations"

H1471
גּי    גּוי
gôy  gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2011, 08:40:24 PM »
Abraham can't be saved then, he is not an Israelite  :icon_jokercolor:


From my nderstanding it seems to be that Israel is a people that God has brought forth the prophets, therefore God has a love for them because of that.


Romans 10

 1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
God's Sovereign Choice
 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]




Israel's Unbelief
 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

Offline CHB

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2011, 01:41:34 AM »
Quote from: thanktank
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,

Notice, everything in this is about Israel and Paul says if he could wish to be cut off from Christ for the sake of his own people he would. Having one's name blotted out does not mean they will not be saved. Neither does the fact that names are not written in the book of life mean they won't be saved. It just means that they will either die or won't be among the names of Israel, or among the righteous names of Israel.

Number 5 shows that this book of life is all about Jesus which includes the names of his ancestors.

CHB

Offline CHB

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2011, 01:53:19 AM »

Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved? [/quote]I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
[/quote]

WW, I don't know what you are saying here.  The book of life as I understand it, is all about Christ and the names of his ancestors. It is like a biography. Why would Gentiles names be in it? It has nothing to do with salvation.  I think it can be explained kind of like the kingdom of God., being in the kingdom ,or not being in the kingdonm, has nothing to do with whether a person is saved or not.

CHB 

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2011, 02:13:31 AM »
Quote from: CHB
The book of life as I understand it, is all about Christ and the names of his ancestors. It is like a biography. Why would Gentiles names be in it?

Because of this, CHB

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
 
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

--Col 1

 :bgdance: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2011, 03:34:19 AM »
I'm a gentile and I'm in the kingdom, at least trying to, it's a long trek to the promised land.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2011, 08:53:16 AM »
Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.

But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
 :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2011, 09:41:22 AM »
White Wings said:

Quote
If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....

Excellent point!  The Gospel was brought to the Gentiles, so the Gentiles must be in the Book of Life.  As was also pointed out IF the Book of Life was ONLY for Israel, then Abraham and Issac could NOT be in there, and that even feels funny just thinking about it.

Quote
Book of life is the elect.

Then you end up with portions of the elect getting blotted, but the non-elect NOT getting blotted.  If so, how are they elect?

How "elect" are you really if a bunch of you get "blotted?"

I think it works better if viewed as a Book of the Called.
I don't think it works if viewed as a Book of the "Chosen."

I think it's similar to an earthly reservation book.

All employees were invited to the company dinner. Everybody, received an invitation. Everybody had their name written on a bent card and placed at a seat on a table.

Your name was on the card, a long time before, you even showed up. When you showed up, you were allowed in because your name was on a card. Your name was on the card before you had even taken one bite of food. None were turned away, whosoever wanted could come.

They don't write in your name WHEN you show up, your name is already there. They wrote your name in when they PLANNED the dinner.

However, if you don't show up, in the allotted time, then they will blot out your name.

Any employee who showed up was allowed to sit and eat, because ALL employees had their names on the card and in the reservation Book from day ONE of the planned celebration.

However, some employees did not show up, even though their names were on the card. Some didn't hear about the banquet, some were too busy, some just didn't believe. Yet still, their names were on the card and in the Book.

The employer wanted ALL to come to the banquet, but He wasn't going to drag them. He simply gave out a memo and told everyone to pass the word to any absentees.

Those who did NOT show up, had their names blotted out, even though they started off with their names in. Many were called, but not all came.

It works that way with airplanes too. You can have a reserved seat with your name on it. But if you miss the flight, your name gets erased.

I just made reservations for tomorrow night. My name is in the book. If I fail to show up, my name gets blotted out of the book.

 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2011, 09:42:12 AM »
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.

But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).

Good summary.   :thumbsup:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2011, 09:45:03 AM »
Hi Hans.  Where do you personally see the following scrips fitting into the scenario you describe above?

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.  Phil. 1:6

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.  Romans 9:16

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  Eph. 1:13

Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;  Heb. 12:2

for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.  2 Timothy 1:12

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,  Eph. 2:8

Thanks, God bless.

Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2011, 09:51:14 AM »
I found this verse in Genesis interesting  and somewhat in line with the idea of God writing BEFORE creation.

Genesis 2:4-5
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field BEFORE it was in the earth, and every herb of the field BEFORE it grew:
[/color]

So there seems to have been created some sort of master list of all plants, herbs, animals, people and so that would over the course of the world be brought forth into the world.

It's almost like a parts list of the world, including ALL the people that would in the course of the world be brought forth into the world.

But then the world fell into the hand of the dark one and with it the list of all the names in the list of the world. It's not that God didn't know or couldn't remember the names in the list, but in a way they now belonged to the dark kingdom.

So how was God going to get this list back?

John 3:16
For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[/color]

In a way, you could say, Jesus purchased the Book of the people of this world with His own blood.

This Book, now belongs to Jesus. It is His Book, by virtue of His blood purchase.

Revelation 5:9
"Worthy are You to take the Book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
[/color]

This gives Jesus the right to issue a call to anyone in THIS world.  This gives everyone in THIS world the right to the benefits of Christ's purchase.  Essentially, because of Christ, everyone has the RIGHT to receive Christ by faith.  No one who is brought forth into THIS world will be turned away, because, by virtue of being in the Book that Christ now has, they are entitled to be saved.

Now the devil, fallen angels and his crew are NOT part of the World that Christ died for.  So they are NOT going to get a call. They do NOT have a God purchased right to get saved. They were NEVER a part of the list of people to be brought forth unto THIS world.   


So why do we only see writing into the Book BEFORE the foundation.
And only 'blotting out" after the foundation.

Why is writing  into always past?
Why is blotting out always future?

Since the Book has been created there is ONLY subtraction from the Book.
There is no Scriptural account of any addition. There is no need to add to the Book because everybody starts of in the Book. 

 God is not adding to the Book, but He is whittling it down.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2011, 09:53:03 AM »
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2011, 10:09:09 AM »
Hi Hans.  Where do you personally see the following scrips fitting into the scenario you describe above?

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.  Phil. 1:6

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.  Romans 9:16

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  Eph. 1:13

Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;  Heb. 12:2

for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.  2 Timothy 1:12

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,  Eph. 2:8

Thanks, God bless.

Using the above scenario of the dinner call.

Quote
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  Eph. 1:13

Here the sealing does not happen with the call, but rather with the response of believing to the call.  At the point of responding in faith to the call, a person is sealed with the Spirit of promise.  In effect, avoiding potential deletion, because they chose to receive Christ by faith.  Essentially, they show up at the call and partake of Christ, thereby avoiding blotting.

Quote
I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.  Phil. 1:6

The work of the Spirit 'within you' begins' at the point of "eat this is my body" , that is, when you respond to the call and by faith partake of Christ. Those who show up to the offered feast experience a beginning work within, those who do not, do not, and are potentials candidates for eventual deletion.

Quote
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.  Romans 9:16

Food works within you, not so much activated by your will, but rather by inherent properties. All you have to do is eat, the food will do the work of forming.

Quote
for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.  2 Timothy 1:12


So, Paul showed up at the feast, received Christ by faith, trusts in Christ, that as Christ has provided the appetizer, so will He continue until the final dessert.







Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2011, 10:11:05 AM »
What if the book's not the end of the story?

Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2011, 10:17:16 AM »
What if the book's not the end of the story?

Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?

Certainly possible.  Well, in fact, I feel very sure everything of God is MUCH bigger than we think!   :thumbsup:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2011, 10:20:09 AM »
Which leads into this; 

Let's for the moment, for the sake of discussion, go with everything you said 3 posts back is true.  I still believe the Book is taking us to further events, not that it's the final event.  (see posts # 3, 14, 45 in this thread).

However, even though it may be true all names are in the Book from the beginning, I don't believe that's without question the case.  I believe there are other possibilities;  Israel and/or the elect being 2 of them.  There may be others.

*To all, for further exploration/insight, revelation.  Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this.  We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world.    Get this;  when was Jesus the Lamb slain?   
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:24:05 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2011, 10:28:02 AM »
What if the book's not the end of the story?

Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
And our minds are smaller than we think...

Speaking of minds the whole BoL concept is a bit strange for an all knowing God.
Because He knows the end why did He even bother to write the names in BoL that will be blotted out?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2011, 10:35:11 AM »
Jabcat

Quote
To all, for further exploration/insight, revelation.  Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this.  We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world.    Get this;  when was Jesus the Lamb slain?   

I have to run, but will read tomorrow, I'm curious when do you think the Lamb was slain?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2011, 10:48:14 AM »
What if the book's not the end of the story?

Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
And our minds are smaller than we think...

Speaking of minds the whole BoL concept is a bit strange for an all knowing God.
Because He knows the end why did He even bother to write the names in BoL that will be blotted out?

interesting point, that is...
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2