Author Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life  (Read 39561 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2011, 10:16:05 AM »
Hans,

Jesus has a discussion with the Pharisee, Nicodemus where he tells Nicodemus that a man must be born again to see the kingdom of God.  That means you cannot enter the kingdom [the holy city of God] unless you are born again.

Nicodemus is struggling with this concept but Jesus tells him you should know this since you are a teacher.

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

--John 3

Jesus is chiding the Pharisee here--how could you be a master, a rabbi, and not know this? 

That means that this concept of being born from above [born again] is in the Old Testament writings.

And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

--Deu 30:6



Does the writer of this Psalm understand what it means to be a spirit filled man, born from above?:



Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.  Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise.  For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; then will you delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on your altar.

--Psa 51:10-19



So if people were entering the kingdom in the Old Testament by being born again, and Jesus has opened up the kingdom to all in the New Testament, wouldn't it stand to reason that those who enter the kingdom as born again are written into the book of life?  And that this number is getting bigger not smaller?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:20:47 AM by Molly »

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2011, 11:19:48 AM »
Molly

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This book would therefore not contain everyone who ever lived because not everyone is called? [eg those of other faiths, or atheists, or those ignorant of Christ].

I think it would contain ALL, since it is the will of God for ALL to be saved. If it were the will of God for only some to be saved then only some would be in the Book.  In short, I think from the foundation of the world everybody who was ever to be born was in the Book. 

Being in the Book gives Christ the right to offer you salvation.
Being in the Book, gives a person the right and privilege to respond to Christ's offer.

If a person accepts Christ's offer, you remain in the Book.
If a person rejects Christ's offer, they eventually are deleted.

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So we would start out with many in the book of life and end up with few?

It is a winnowing process, it is a separation of the wheat from the chaff.  His fan is constantly in His hand and is blowing away the chaff, so in that way, the pile is getting smaller. Think of the Book of Life as the winnowing floor.  The chaff that flies away id essentially the 'blotting' process, using a different metaphor.

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So we see a great multitude that no man could number clothed in the white raiment of the overcomer.  All these started in the book of life from the foundation of the world and were never blotted out?

Seems to me, that is how it would have to work.

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This says that 1)some were written into the book of life from the foundation of the world and all of these will not be deceived by the beast [wonder at him].

It doesn't actually say some, but I can see how a person could come to that conclusion.   I can see how a person could think that "not written" means 'never written, but look at this passage.

Psalm 69:28]They are blotted out of the Book of Life, And with the righteous are NOT written.


Read this passage closely. Note how it says they were NOT WRITTEN in the Book. Note that those NOT WRITTEN were however "BLOTTED OUT"

This means that at some point they WERE in the Book but got blotted out.

To be found NOT WRITTEN in the Book, does NOT mean a person was never there. Based upon this passage it means they were there and got blotted out.

Keeping that in mind, that NOT WRITTEN means 'once written but now blotted.

Quote
]Ok, so maybe those written into the book from the foundation of the world are just the elect? [/color]

The problem with this is, that you end up blotting out a bunch of the elect, when the blotting happens, if so then how are they really elect?

Quote
]But you say none are ever added.  That means you are ignoring those who are born into the kingdom,

Not really, they are in the Book. When they are born in the Kingdom, the essentially remain in the book and by their response avoid the blotter.

Quote
]So God is entering the names of those born in the holy city--the new Jerusalem.

By receiving Christ and becoming born again a person avoids the blotter and remains in the Book.
By rejecting Christ, a person will eventually end up blotted.

He does not have add your name. He just has to NOT subtract it.  The wheat remains, the chaff leaves. He does not have to add wheat to the pile, just blow away the chaff. 

Quote
]If I am a born again citizen of God's holy city, would I, of all people, have a right to the life given by Christ?]

If you are in the book of Life (and you are) then you have a God given right to receive Christ.


Because you are in the Book of Life, Jesus has the right to offer you salvation.
Because you are in the Book of Life, you have the right to respond to His offer.

If you receive Christ's offer, then you avoid the blotter.
If a person rejects Christ's offer, they will in time be blotted.

If a person has already responded to Christ's offer, then she already, in a measure, has the Life of Christ in her.

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you cannot enter the kingdom [the holy city of God] unless you are born again

That's the way I see it too.

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if people were entering the kingdom in the Old Testament by being born again,

The new birth was not available under the Old Covenant, it was not available until Christ rose from the dead and inaugurated the New Covenant.

]
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wouldn't it stand to reason that those who enter the kingdom as born again are written into the book of life?

They were in the Book of Life prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world.  When they respond to Christ's offer, they avoid being eventually blotted out. It's not that they are added in, it's just that they are NOT subtracted out.  You are  NOT in because you were added in, you are in because you were NOT subtracted out.

]
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And that this number is getting bigger not smaller?
The entire Book is getting smaller, via deletions.  Since no names are being added, and only deletions are happening, the Book must be getting smaller. 

However, since more people are responding to their right to receive Christ, that number is actually getting larger.

Since the number of them who are to be deleted is getting smaller, and those who have secured their right to avoid deletion by receiving Christ is getting larger, the day will come, when the last call goes forth.  There is a day, when all the chaff is gone and only wheat is left and He whom holds the fan picks up the final roll and calls the feast.

It works more like a feast and a mass call to come to the feast, everybody is invited and their name is placed on a table and mat. Only those who show get to eat, the rest although on the invite list, get blotted because they did not take up the offer.  It's only subtraction, not addition.

Hans



 [/b][/color]
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 11:25:13 AM by Hansc »

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2011, 11:37:21 AM »
OK.  Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.

But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think].  So let's look again at this verse--

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

--Rev 17:8 [NIV]

Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.

Isn't that what it is saying?  Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast.  And we know that's not the case.

Correct?

So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2011, 11:43:18 AM »
Molly

Think of a phone book. Let's say there are 1,000 people in this book. You are to go through and call every one and offer them a free flower bouquet.  Everyone in the small town is in the phone Book, none are left out.   As you work your way through the Book, everyone that accepts your free offer you put a gold sticky star by their name. Everyone who refuses your offer or wont answer the phone you blot out. There is no addition in your process, only subtraction. 

On one hand, using this process, the phone book is getting smaller and smaller each day as you go through it.  But on the other hand, the group in the Book with the Gold star is getting bigger and bigger.  In time, the only people left will be those with Gold sticky stars. All the others got blotted out of the Book.  When you finally give out the last star, and blot out the last name, you call all the star people.  You will say, WOW, many were called, but few got the star.

You then throw a big gold star party and call it The Marriage Feast of the Lamb.   

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2011, 11:54:48 AM »
Quote from: Hans
The new birth was not available under the Old Covenant, it was not available until Christ rose from the dead and inaugurated the New Covenant.

Hans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above?  Or to have the Holy Spirit?  How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit?  Do you think King David didn't know Jesus?

Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?



 35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, "How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared,

    "'The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand,
   until I put your enemies under your feet.'

 37David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?" And the great throng heard him gladly.

--Mark 12

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 11:59:57 AM »
OK.  Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.

But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think].  So let's look again at this verse--

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

--Rev 17:8 [NIV]

Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.

Isn't that what it is saying?  Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast.  And we know that's not the case.

Correct?

So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.

Concerning the idea that we were placed into the Book of Life before conception, consider:

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your Book. Every moment was laid out BEFORE a single day had passed NLT.

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your Book WERE ALL written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.ASV

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being BBE
[/color]

Quote
Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.

Isn't that what it is saying?  Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast.  And we know that's not the case.

Correct?

I think you are right. I would think these people, started off in the Book of Life, prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world. Then are some time after coming into the world, they reject Christ, which moves them into the "blotted not written" category, and they end up getting fooled by the beast.  Essentially these people, have rejected Christ, been blotted, and then fooled by the beast.   

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 12:01:05 PM »
OK.  Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.

But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think].  So let's look again at this verse--

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

--Rev 17:8 [NIV]

Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.

Isn't that what it is saying?  Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast.  And we know that's not the case.

Correct?

So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.
Hans, I'm not saying I don't like your phone book analogy.  I do.

But, for now, could you please reread the post I am quoting here and answer the question I posed?

Look at Rev 17:8 and tell me in your own words what it is saying.

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2011, 12:04:51 PM »
Quote from: Hans
I think you are right. I would think these people, started off in the Book of Life, prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world. Then are some time after coming into the world, they reject Christ, which moves them into the "blotted not written" category, and they end up getting fooled by the beast.  Essentially these people, have rejected Christ, been blotted, and then fooled by the beast.

But, it's not saying that, is it?  Isn't it saying that those who are written into the book from the foundation of the world will not marvel at the beast?

So   if your phone book from the foundation of the world are all those who will not marvel at the beast, it can't be everyone that ever lived, can it ?  Or we are missing something.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2011, 12:09:16 PM »
Molly

Quote
Hans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above?  Or to have the Holy Spirit?  How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit?  Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.

Quote
Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2011, 12:20:30 PM »
Ok, Hans, we are digressing a little, but that's ok.

Do you think there were no spirit filled born again elect in the Old Testament?  What about Moses?  Moses met with God on the mountain.  What about Joshua?  What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  Doesn't Jesus tell us the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living?  Doesn't he tell us that many will come into the kingdom and sit down with the OT saints at the same table?

Doesn't Paul tell us there were elect in the Old Testament?

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

--Rom 11

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2011, 12:21:17 PM »
Molly, What it says is

Quote
The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished

Is a reverse from your last post, where you said:

Quote
Isn't it saying that those who are written into the book from the foundation of the world will not marvel at the beast?

So  from the Bible we have "not in the Book, WILL marvel"

and from your post.

"in the Book, will NOT marvel"

For me, what is happening here is that those who have rejected Christ and thereby have gotten themselves blotted out of the Book will be fooled by the beast.

Those who have received Christ and remain in the Book will know what is going on and not be fooled.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 12:27:28 PM by Hansc »

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2011, 12:26:15 PM »
Ok, Hans, we are digressing a little, but that's ok.

Do you think there were no spirit filled born again elect in the Old Testament?  What about Moses?  Moses met with God on the mountain.  What about Joshua?  What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  Doesn't Jesus tell us the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living?  Doesn't he tell us that many will come into the kingdom and sit down with the OT saints at the same table?

Doesn't Paul tell us there were elect in the Old Testament?

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

--Rom 11

Molly, it would take a pretty detailed look into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and as much as I would enjoy that, I am really pressed for time. I just don't think I can get that detailed into a Bible study. But let me just say that Of course, the OT saints Moses and co. are going to be there too.  It's a really detailed thing to go through what makes each Covenant distinct, but how in the end Christ will be all in all. 

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »
Ok.  Let's look at it in a number of different translations.  And, ask again--what is it saying?  Because this is important.  It doesn't say anything about blotting out here.  It says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world.  These are the people who will not be deceived.  One translation even calls them the people not of this world.  Remember Jesus saying, my kingdom is not of this world [kosmos].  [If it were] my servants would fight...So these people written in the book of life at the foundation of the world are not of this world [kosmos].  They are the servants of Christ.

 
New International Version (©1984)
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

International Standard Version (©2008)
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

American King James Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

American Standard Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Bible in Basic English
The beast which you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the great deep, and to go into destruction. And those who are on the earth, whose names have not been put in the book of life from the first, will be full of wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and still will be.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.

Darby Bible Translation
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.

English Revised Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Webster's Bible Translation
The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Weymouth New Testament
"The Wild Beast which you have seen was, and is not, and yet is destined to re-ascend, before long, out of the bottomless pit and go his way into perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth will be filled with amazement--all whose names are not in the Book of Life, having been recorded there ever since the creation of the world--when they see the Wild Beast: because he was, and is not, and yet is to come.

World English Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.

Young's Literal Translation
'The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
 
 


Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2011, 01:03:49 PM »
Hans, let me ask you this--Do you think Heb 11  talking about the OT saints is talking about the same people of the faith who were written in the book of life from/at/before the foundation of the world?


32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2011, 02:12:36 PM »

John 17
 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.



Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2011, 03:13:01 PM »
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

--Rev 13:8

.

"foundation"

G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.


G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.

the lamb slain from the casting down of the kosmos [world].

What others say:  Commentaries:

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Mt 4:8,9 Jn 12:31 14:30 18:36 Eph 2:2 6:12 1Jn 2:15-17. This world-system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary


13:1-10 The apostle, standing on the shore, saw a savage beast rise out of the sea; a tyrannical, idolatrous, persecuting power, springing up out of the troubles which took place. It was a frightful monster! It appears to mean that worldly, oppressing dominion, which for many ages, even from the times of the Babylonish captivity, had been hostile to the church. The first beast then began to oppress and persecute the righteous for righteousness' sake, but they suffered most under the fourth beast of Daniel, (the Roman empire,) which has afflicted the saints with many cruel persecutions. The source of its power was the dragon. It was set up by the devil, and supported by him. The wounding the head may be the abolishing pagan idolatry; and the healing of the wound, introducing popish idolatry, the same in substance, only in a new dress, but which as effectually answers the devil's design. The world admired its power, policy and success. They paid honour and subjection to the devil and his instruments. It exercised infernal power and policy, requiring men to render that honour to creatures which belongs to God alone. Yet the devil's power and success are limited. Christ has a chosen remnant, redeemed by his blood, recorded in his book, sealed by his Spirit; and though the devil and antichrist may overcome the body, and take away the natural life, they cannot conquer the soul, nor prevail with true believers to forsake their Saviour, and join his enemies. Perseverance in the faith of the gospel and true worship of God, in this great hour of trial and temptation, which would deceive all but the elect, is the character of those registered in the book of life. This powerful motive and encouragement to constancy, is the great design of the whole Revelation.
 
 


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary


whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life"; see Gill on Revelation 3:5; and their "names being written therein from the foundation of the world", Revelation 17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, John 13:18, and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. Something like this the Jews say (e) of the Messiah upon Genesis 49:11,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 04:20:44 PM by Molly »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2011, 05:16:14 PM »
Molly

Quote
Hans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above?  Or to have the Holy Spirit?  How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit?  Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.

Quote
Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.

I was discussing this the other day with some others here about, the spirit. I agree with you I think that there is a difference between old con saints vs new con saints. I think the differecne posssibly could be that the holy spirit is upon old conv saints, but within the new conv saints. I have read many old conv scriptures where the spirit comes upon them and then they prophecy. It seems to be that in the old convenant the spirit would come and then go. In the wilderness God was with them, but outside of them, in the cloud by night and in the ark of the covenant, but now we are the ark and God himself (At least his Spirit, although some Christians do think they are God :winkgrin:) dwells withinus.

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »
Quote from: Hans
He does not have add your name. He just has to NOT subtract it.

Quote
You are  NOT in because you were added in, you are in because you were NOT subtracted out.


Hi Hans,

Not to be a pest about this, but you maintain that names are never added to the book of life, only deleted.

Yet, here we have a record of God writing the names of those born in Zion, the holy city of God,  in a register.  That means he is adding names that were not formerly there.  Otherwise, why would he have to write the names in?  Could you address this?


The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah

--Psa 87:6



Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2011, 07:55:13 PM »
So Molly, you're suggesting it's primarily about the elect - which is the ecclesia, only that what, perhaps 5-10% of humanity that's ever lived?  It reminds me of part of my signature - the ecclesia are predestined - the rest are destined.     Again, Paul's writings show the rest being added in, each in their own turn, when God does become All in ALL.   :thumbsup:

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »
The elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.  Are these the ones written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world?  It seems like they are to me.


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).


Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2011, 08:36:39 PM »
 :bigGrin: Before I read your post, I went and found this; 

New Living Translation (©2007)
For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.   Eph. 2:10


The order:

1) The first-fruits
2) Christ's at His coming
3) The rest  (all summed up in Christ, God All in All)

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 08:51:38 PM by jabcat »

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2011, 10:41:41 PM »
Molly

Quote
Hans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above?  Or to have the Holy Spirit?  How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit?  Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.

Quote
Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?

Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.

I was discussing this the other day with some others here about, the spirit. I agree with you I think that there is a difference between old con saints vs new con saints. I think the differecne posssibly could be that the holy spirit is upon old conv saints, but within the new conv saints. I have read many old conv scriptures where the spirit comes upon them and then they prophecy. It seems to be that in the old convenant the spirit would come and then go. In the wilderness God was with them, but outside of them, in the cloud by night and in the ark of the covenant, but now we are the ark and God himself (At least his Spirit, although some Christians do think they are God :winkgrin:) dwells withinus.

Thinktank. Good Post  I think in broad terms what you are saying does work along the line you laid  out.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2011, 10:52:17 PM »
Ok.  Let's look at it in a number of different translations.  And, ask again--what is it saying?  Because this is important.  It doesn't say anything about blotting out here.  It says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world.  These are the people who will not be deceived.  One translation even calls them the people not of this world.  Remember Jesus saying, my kingdom is not of this world [kosmos].  [If it were] my servants would fight...So these people written in the book of life at the foundation of the world are not of this world [kosmos].  They are the servants of Christ.

 
New International Version (©1984)
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

International Standard Version (©2008)
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

American King James Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

American Standard Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Bible in Basic English
The beast which you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the great deep, and to go into destruction. And those who are on the earth, whose names have not been put in the book of life from the first, will be full of wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and still will be.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.

Darby Bible Translation
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.

English Revised Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Webster's Bible Translation
The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Weymouth New Testament
"The Wild Beast which you have seen was, and is not, and yet is destined to re-ascend, before long, out of the bottomless pit and go his way into perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth will be filled with amazement--all whose names are not in the Book of Life, having been recorded there ever since the creation of the world--when they see the Wild Beast: because he was, and is not, and yet is to come.

World English Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.

Young's Literal Translation
'The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

Quote
what is it saying? . . . It doesn't say anything about blotting out here.

I posted the Psalm here earlier because to shows that "not written" is another way to say "blotted out"  They mean  the same thing.  So actually the function of "blotting" is mentioned here.

Quote
It says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world


Molly, they verses you posted do not say that. While I understand that ALL people start off in the Book of Life. The verses you quoted focus on them in the "blotted, not written" category. Molly, in your comment on the verses you posted you reversed the focus.

Quote
These are the people who will not be deceived.


Molly, you reversed the focus again. The non-deceived do not appear in this passage you posted. Only the deceived appear here.

The verses you posted do NOT mention those who will NOT be deceived.
The verses you posted ONLY mention those who WILL be deceived.

I think we need to be sure that we focus on exactly what a passage says.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:56:31 PM by Hansc »

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2011, 10:55:00 PM »
Hans, here is another example that not all are on the call list.  Well, they can answer the phone if it rings, but the person on the other end will be speaking jibberish as far as they are concerned.  They won't understand a word of it.  Is that their fault or the purpose of God?




10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

--Mat 13



Jesus specifically says, I chose you, you didn't choose me.


John 15:16 "Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:"



Accordingly, this was decided for us before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9: (God) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." 

'Before the world began' is 'pro chronos aionios'--before the aion!

So, think again about who is in this telephone book and why.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2011, 11:03:04 PM »
Molly

Quote
Hans, let me ask you this--Do you think Heb 11  talking about the OT saints is talking about the same people of the faith who were written in the book of life from/at/before the foundation of the world?

Since ALL people start off in the Book of Life. Then yes, the OT saints would have to be included in that number.

Quote
Not to be a pest about this, but you maintain that names are never added to the book of life, only deleted.

Yet, here we have a record of God writing the names of those born in Zion, the holy city of God,  in a register.  That means he is adding names that were not formerly there.  Otherwise, why would he have to write the names in?  Could you address this?


The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah

--Psa 87:6

God's got lots of Books. The register of who was born in Jerusalem, does not have to be the Lamb's Book of Life.  We are talking about the Lamb's Book of Life.  There are other Books.