Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[jabcat]

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.

Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.

(thanks CHB for contribution)

[Sally Anne]

This passage of Revelation a friend of mine used today when discussing UR.  He says it prooves the UR position to be false.  I checked out the "young literal translation" and found that there was no reference to Tree of Life which he had from his bible translation and was using to show his position that if we were taken out of the tree of life we obviously would not be saved..  If you insert "scroll of life" instead of "tree of life"....you do not contradict Gary Amirault's position in his paper on Partiality in which he states that "all will eat from the Tree of Life".  Unfortunately, my friend was not very convinced of this and basically said, Scroll of Life, Tree of Life, book of life...they all basically mean the same thing.

Therefore, I am still looking for a more satisfactory answer to refute the assertion posted.

[Universalist Catholic]

Scroll of Life, Tree of Life, book of life...they all basically mean the same thing.

I believe a scroll and a tree are two completely different things 

[jabcat]

I've finally gone over and done some looking at another Christian site, where there's an interesting discussion going on about this topic.  The discussion has several facets, but one of them has to do with whether names ever added to the Book of Life (especially after being blotted out) are ever added back in, and where's the Biblical accounting of that.  Also, when are names put there to begin (or end) with?

I know there are other scriptures that talk about all being reconciled, God being All in All, all summed up in Christ, every tongue confessing Jesus is Lord IN [lit. transl.] the Holy Spirit ("whoever believes/confesses will be saved"); all those Paulinian verses that go beyond what some believe to be the final accounting, i.e., "Revelations" (the Revelation or Unveiling of Jesus Christ) and show the ultimate reconciliation of all of creation.  Also, in the Unveiling itself, there's the picture of the gates of the city being open day and night, never locked, as the kings (us, believers) bring our treasures (new believers) into it, the leaves of the Tree of Life healing the nations, no more death, pain, tears - which precludes an eternal torment.  However, sometimes we don't know to look other places in the Word besides the Unveiling to see the final outcome of God's creation, believing the orthodox order of books to be a linear time-line of "end-time" events, so there can be difficulty for us/me getting past some mainstream-accepted "details".   So, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life?  When names are added, what does blotted out mean, and then what happens/what are the possibilities - specifically besides all the other ultimate reconciliation scriptures that exist?  Or is this topic the way it is with all of scripture, in that it must be taken as a whole and reconciled as a whole - the scriptures regarding the Book of Life being taken in context with all the other UR final destination scrips - all fitting together in the Master('s) Plan?

[shawn]

I think this boils down to timing of the verses.  Is this the end?  If not why?  Just because you are at first excluded...to be salted...doesn't mean you can't be eventually reconciled.  I do wonder, why is it that mainstream Christian thinking believes Revelations to be the end?  Do they have significant reason for believing so?

[jabcat]

Agreed on the first part.

On the last line - I spent my entire life in mainstream (although I'm not sure you could consider the little country churches we went to "mainstream"  - but that's another story).  Anyway, it's the last book of most Bibles, and everyone says it's "the end" of the Bible, so it must be, right?  Truthfully, the understanding that significant parts of Paul's revelations goes beyond the book of Revelation is a fairly new "revelation" for me - and a really cool one at that!  So, really, other than tradition, I probably can't answer your question, Shawn.  Maybe there's a formally sanctioned, official church answer someone can give us.

[Molly]

1His foundation is in the holy mountains.

 2The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

 3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

 4I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

 5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

 6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

 7As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

--Psa 87



The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah

--Psa 87:6



This might be describing the book of life, as those who are born [again] in Zion are written up in a register by the Lord himself.  [A recording of births?]  This is like a census of the new Jerusalem.

[Molly]

Again the idea of citizenship.


20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

--Phil 3



19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

--Eph 2



fellow citizens with the saints! 

[Molly]

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

 9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;

 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

--Heb 11



22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

--Heb 12


"enrolled" [in heaven]

G583
ἀπογράφω
apographō
ap-og-raf'-o
From G575 and G1125; to write off (a copy or list), that is, enrol: - tax, write.


enrolled in heaven--again it is like a census.  The Book of Life is a census?

[pilgrim1]

Hi all
The option I'm considering is that the book of life is a running record, an 'up to the date register' of those who are 'spiritually alive' at any given moment in time.

We know from scripture that God amends the book by blotting names out, I see no reason why He does not write names in when they become alive in Christ.

[Molly]

Hi all
The option I'm considering is that the book of life is a running record, an 'up to the date register' of those who are 'spiritually alive' at any given moment in time.

We know from scripture that God amends the book by blotting names out, I see no reason why He does not write names in when they become alive in Christ.

I was thinking that, too.  That it's a real time census of the citizens of [heaven, Zion, the New Jerusalem]. 

We know that Abraham was on this list but Paul talks about how the Jews are taken off the list until the fulfillment of the Gentiles--blinded by God--and then they will be added in again because of the election of the fathers.

I'm wondering if this is why David got in so much trouble for doing the census because only God can take the census for Zion [only God knows our hearts].  I've always wondered about that.


10 But when it was all done, David was overwhelmed with guilt because he had counted the people, replacing trust with statistics. And David prayed to God, "I have sinned badly in what I have just done. But now God forgive my guilt—I've been really stupid."

--2 Sam 24

[WhiteWings]

I've finally gone over and done some looking at another Christian site, where there's an interesting discussion going on about this topic.  The discussion has several facets, but one of them has to do with whether names ever added to the Book of Life (especially after being blotted out) are ever added back in, and where's the Biblical accounting of that.  Also, when are names put there to begin (or end) with?

Is there proof people can be blotted out and written in again?

Jesus forgave the Romans. Romans did about everything the Bible forbids. But they were forgiven. When forgiven you are in the book of life.
If the Romans were in the book of life even before Jesus forgave them, then it must be impossible to be not be in the book of life.
If the Romans were not in the book of life, Jesus wrote their names in that when He forgave them. Jesus forced salvation on the Romans. The Romans were in no way searching the God of the Bible.
So either it's impossible to get blotted out (verses say it's possible) or a blotted out person can be written in again.

[Molly]

23 If the people of Israel do not continue in their unbelief, they will again be joined to the tree. God is able to join them to the tree again.

 24 After all, weren't you cut from a wild olive tree? Weren't you joined to an olive tree that was taken care of? And wasn't that the opposite of how things should be done? How much more easily will the natural branches be joined to their own olive tree!

25Brothers and sisters, here is a mystery I want you to understand. It will keep you from being proud. Part of Israel has refused to obey God. That will continue until the full number of non-Jews has entered God's kingdom. 26 And so all Israel will be saved.
--Rom 11



"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

[jabcat]

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";  Romans 11:26

[legoman]

A few points here to consider:

1. Maybe its helpful to realize what the book of life is used for:  it determines who is thrown into the lake or fire.  Of course we who believe in UR understand that many are thrown into the lake of fire, and it is ultimately for their own good.  So even if people are blotted out it does not mean they are not saved.  It just means they go through the lake of fire.

2. Saul/Paul had two names.  He was Saul the persecutor who was converted into Paul the apostle.  Certainly Saul was not written in the book of life, but we can guess that Paul was.  Yet it was the same person - just old nature vs. new nature.  Anyone converted is given a new name - it is that name that is written in the book of life perhaps, not the old name?

3. What is the book of life?  Some translations call it the the book of life of the lamb.  I read somewhere that a better translation is the book of the life of the lamb - ie. the book of life is symbolically Christ.  It is a book of Christ's life.  Those not in the book of life are not in Christ - they go into the lake of fire.  We know that.  Yet we know all will be made alive in Christ, each in their own order - Christ came to save sinners - the lost - all people - the world.  Each in their own order is important to remember here.

[jabcat]

so again lego, this seems where some of Paul's descriptions of ultimate reconciliation goes beyond and/or addresses some different things than ("Revelations") The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.   

[WhiteWings]

A few points here to consider:

1. Maybe its helpful to realize what the book of life is used for:  it determines who is thrown into the lake or fire.  Of course we who believe in UR understand that many are thrown into the lake of fire, and it is ultimately for their own good.

That's stated in the Greek.

2. Saul/Paul had two names.  He was Saul the persecutor who was converted into Paul the apostle.  Certainly Saul was not written in the book of life, but we can guess that Paul was.  Yet it was the same person - just old nature vs. new nature.  Anyone converted is given a new name - it is that name that is written in the book of life perhaps, not the old name?

Many people changed name in the OT. Not always a real conversion but always when a new phase in Fathers plan started.

3. What is the book of life?  Some translations call it the the book of life of the lamb.  I read somewhere that a better translation is the book of the life of the lamb - ie. the book of life is symbolically Christ.  It is a book of Christ's life.  Those not in the book of life are not in Christ - they go into the lake of fire.  We know that.  Yet we know all will be made alive in Christ, each in their own order - Christ came to save sinners - the lost - all people - the world.  Each in their own order is important to remember here.

I wrote something similar in my previous post but decided to delete it because whatever the exact translation it doesn't really matter for what will happen. People are cast in LoF because they are not written in book/Jesus. The effect/amount is exactly the same.

[jabcat]

so again lego, this seems where some of Paul's descriptions of ultimate reconciliation goes beyond and/or addresses some different things than ("Revelations") The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.   

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/big_blocker_me_9293.msg116421.html#msg116421

[Molly]

Jesus ushers in the kingdom--the new covenant.

The Jews are cut off.  They are thrown out of the kingdom into the outer darkness of the abyss.
They are cut down and cast into the fire.

They are replaced by the Gentiles until the fulfillment of the Gentiles.

Their names are taken out of the book of life [the register of names in the kingdom] but for the sake of their fathers, the elect, they will be added [grafted] back in at some time in the future.

This is announced by John the Baptist.

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

--Mat 8



But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

--Mat 3



Here we see those not in the kingdom are 1)cut off and thrown into the outer darkness, and 2)cut down and thrown into the fire.  This is most certainly 'destruction.'

This is referring only to the Jews.  But Paul tells us all Israel will be saved.

In Rev 20 do we see the same thing happening to the Gentiles who have not been added to the book of life, grafted into the kingdom?

We know that only the elect among the Gentiles will be saved in this age, as only the elect among the Jews was saved in the last.  But, that's not the end of the story.

Names can be added and subtracted from the book of life and added back in. 



Deuteronomy 4:4
But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.

[Hansc]

Jabcat

So, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life?  When names are added, what does blotted out mean

I created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it. The first thing I thought was good was to gather all the verses that mention the Book of Life.  Then rather than trying to fit in any theology, doctrine or assumptions I tried to make a list of that which can be know from the verses alone. 

Then I said OK, now that I have the verses, and the point blank declarations of the Word, what are some possible implications that work in line with what the Word says?

For example, the Word ONLY shows addition to the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world.  It only speaks of writing in the past.

After the foundation, ONLY subtraction is used.

Some may say "But He has to add in."  The problem with that is that the Bible makes no mention of that.

Some think it's a record of who's saved. Personally, I don't think so.  There are serious problems with that idea. I'm not going to add too much. I'll post how I believe the Book of Life does work in the original thread, and why a record of salvation does not really work.   If it's NOT a record of who's saved, then "grafted back in" is not synonymous with 'written back in." It would actually be synonymous with "not blotted."  Again, it's only subtraction, never addition.

Well, it is not my intention to stir too much up, but since I created that thread, I thought I should comment, at least once.   

     

[Molly]

Some think it's a record of who's saved. Personally, I don't think so.

Who do you think it is a record of?

it is not my intention to stir too much up...

Stir away, Hans.  Isn't that what the angel did at Bethesda?

Do you think a person can be in the kingdom of heaven and NOT be in the book of life?

That is, are the same people in both?

[WhiteWings]

I created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it. The first thing I thought was good was to gather all the verses that mention the Book of Life.  Then rather than trying to fit in any theology, doctrine or assumptions I tried to make a list of that which can be know from the verses alone.

That's a good starting point. But also a very difficult one. It's hard to truely read without bias. And because the meaning of a verse can be in the tiny details a perfect translation is needed. And chosing a translation is often biased too../

For example, the Word ONLY shows addition to the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world.  It only speaks of writing in the past.

^YLTRev 13
8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

Do you mean the above verse? That's not about the book but about Jesus.

After the foundation, ONLY subtraction is used.

Does that means the faMous born again doesn't exist?

^YLTJohn 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Some may say "But He has to add in."  The problem with that is that the Bible makes no mention of that.

I think the verse shown above does.

If it's NOT a record of who's saved, then "grafted back in" is not synonymous with 'written back in."

Grafted means to (re)unite. So things can only be reunited if they where seperated before. BTW religion means reunite.

It would actually be synonymous with "not blotted."  Again, it's only subtraction, never addition.

Blotted out is cut off.

[jabcat]

Jabcat

So, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life?  When names are added, what does blotted out mean

I created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it.

Well, it is not my intention to stir too much up, but since I created that thread, I thought I should comment, at least once.   

     

If "stir" means explore, discuss, reason together, then that's what we're here for.  Thanks for the reply.   

[Hansc]

Molly asked:

Who do you think it is a record of?

Molly, as you know, I am writing a lot into this thread on 'another site.' I go into a little greater detail into how I think this must work there and probably will not go into that much here, due to primarily time constraints.  I also have no intention to save time and 'copy/paste from there to here.  I think jabcat has even provided the link.  But I do think you raise some good points and want to comment on them just a bit.

As you know, the Bible NEVER shows any writing into the Book of Life after the foundation. It only shows subtraction. Why?

You brought up the point about the Jews being grafted or added back into the tree of God as an example of being added back in. One the surface this would seem to make sense, but it actually does not work.  It would work that way IF the Book of Life was merely a record of all that are currently saved. Then there would have to be additions, but there are not.

In a way, it is a book that functions as a master list of all that are to come into the world.  The point is since ALL start off in the Book of Life because ALL already start off in the Book, they do not need to be added since they are already there.

Now suppose, that the hour is come for the veil to be lifted from the Jews.  Let's just take one Jewish person, if God added him into the tree of the saved, he would Not have to add him to the Book of Life.  God would simply have to NOT blot him out, in order to add him in. 

In other words, you don't have to add them in, you just have to NOT SUBTRACT them out. 

The Book is more of a Book of the Called, and not a Book of just the chosen.  That's why there is a winnowing or blotting or deleting process, but not an adding process.


     

[Molly]

The Book is more of a Book of the Called, and not a Book of just the chosen.  That's why there is a winnowing or blotting or deleting process, but not an adding process.

Ok.  So let's say this is true.  It starts out as a book of the called but gets smaller as people are deleted, and we end up with only the chosen.  This book would therefore not contain everyone who ever lived because not everyone is called? [eg those of other faiths, or atheists, or those ignorant of Christ].

This would correspond to the verse that says, many are called but few are chosen?  So we would start out with many in the book of life and end up with few?

And would those few be described  here:


 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

--Rev 7



Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.




So we see a great multitude that no man could number clothed in the white raiment of the overcomer.  All these started in the book of life from the foundation of the world and were never blotted out?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


This says that 1)some were written into the book of life from the foundation of the world and 2) all of these will not be deceived by the beast [wonder at him].   We know from another passage that these that are not deceived are elect because it is not possible to deceive the elect.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


So the beast is good at deceiving but not so good he will deceive the elect.  Yet, we also see that the elect are predestined for this position--that would mean they could not be written into a book and then blotted out because predestination would forbid it--

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

--Rom 8

So now we have Rom 8 telling us that these predestinated ones are the called according to his purpose, and he will be faithful to finish a work he started, meaning to glorify them.  This group, then, is not getting blotted out of any book forever because Jesus is making sure not to lose a one.  They are predestinated therefore they will be glorified.  The elect cannot be deceived and they cannot be blotted out of any book.  They are in fact among the judges at the great white throne as implied by this verse--

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Ok, so maybe those written into the book from the foundation of the world are just the elect?  And, maybe others will be added as they are introduced to Christ and become saved?

But you say none are ever added.  That means you are ignoring those who are born into the kingdom, those posts we listed earlier--

The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah

--Psa 87:6

So God is entering the names of those born in the holy city--the new Jerusalem.  It is a census of the citizens of heaven.  Is there any reason why this would not be the book of life?  If I am a born again citizen of God's holy city, would I, of all people, have a right to the life given by Christ?

3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

--Psa 87