Author Topic: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?  (Read 6958 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2011, 04:20:44 PM »
   


 :happyclap:   Very logical.   :happyclap:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 04:24:10 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 04:31:19 PM »
Quote
My personal opinion about satan and his angels is that they are not "beings" but are spirits within us that drive us to religious doctrines, rituals, traditions and ceremonies which bypass and usurp God.

If you notice in the Garden of Eden, Adam never saw the serpent, nor did he accuse satan before God for his fall. He blamed woman. I believe the conversation between the serpent and Eve was in the heavens of Eve's mind.
YLTGen 3
13 And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What is this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget--and I do eat.'
14 And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

Assuming it's a spirit then how can it be compared to beasts of the field? Field = our mind?
I wanted to ask something about crawling on the belley but I don't even know how tho phrase that question :winkgrin:

Quote
There is no need for satan or these fallen angels to be "saved" because they are only part of our corrupt fallen nature.
So Satan isn't a red guy with a pitchfork as WillieH would say. But if I understand you correctly it isn't an autonomous spirit/demon/... either?

YLTJob 1
6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.'

Was it Job himself requested to be tested?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Texas Son

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 02:12:40 AM »
Quote
My personal opinion about satan and his angels is that they are not "beings" but are spirits within us that drive us to religious doctrines, rituals, traditions and ceremonies which bypass and usurp God.

If you notice in the Garden of Eden, Adam never saw the serpent, nor did he accuse satan before God for his fall. He blamed woman. I believe the conversation between the serpent and Eve was in the heavens of Eve's mind.
YLTGen 3
13 And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What is this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget--and I do eat.'
14 And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

Assuming it's a spirit then how can it be compared to beasts of the field? Field = our mind?
I wanted to ask something about crawling on the belley but I don't even know how tho phrase that question :winkgrin:

Quote
There is no need for satan or these fallen angels to be "saved" because they are only part of our corrupt fallen nature.
So Satan isn't a red guy with a pitchfork as WillieH would say. But if I understand you correctly it isn't an autonomous spirit/demon/... either?

YLTJob 1
6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.'

Was it Job himself requested to be tested?

Eve blaming Satan is a bit harder to explain but Scripture never claims she saw satan, only heard him. Even in the wilderness the tempter was perceived to only speak with Jesus but I don't see a physical manifestation mentioned. Jesus had the same questions posed to His flesh challenging God yet He did not take the bait.

In Luke 10:18 Jesus says He sees Satan (adversary) fall from heaven. However it was after the Disciples came back from healing people and casting out demons. I believe Jesus was speaking of the adversary falling from the heavens of peoples minds.

I believe the "crawling on the belly" indicates that the spirit of religiosity is of the lowest spirit of our carnal nature. While it pretends to be godward the food it feeds of us earthy, carnal.

This I believe is illustrated in the story of Job when the sons of God brings with them the adversary. Scripture does not say but I believe the "sons of God" in this circumstance was a picture of the religious authorities of that day. When God asks satan (who was with the son's of God) "have you considered My servant Job. For their is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil" I believe this drove the flesh, the carnal nature of the religious leaders nuts! The same scenario is brought forth that the adversary wants Job to turn against God. In the story, God illustrates a truly godly heart in a man.

With all that set said, I am set in stone on this "theology". Brother Elwin Roach has a few good articles on "Satan", "Lucifer" and "The Traducer (Devil)" at www.godfire.net.

Blessings! TS


Offline jabcat

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 02:23:04 AM »
Hi TS.  Interesting comments.  Clarifying;  you are, or are not "set in stone on this theology"?  (didn't know if you may have left out a word).  Thanks, blessings.

Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2011, 02:43:53 AM »
Another issue I have with satan only being a symbol for our carnal minds is the testing of Jesus.  Are we suggesting Jesus was tempted by his own carnal thoughts?

Whatcha think?

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 03:20:08 AM »
Another issue I have with satan only being a symbol for our carnal minds is the testing of Jesus.  Are we suggesting Jesus was tempted by his own carnal thoughts?

Whatcha think?
  Hi Shawn ,   just a thought , maybe not His carnal mind , I do not think Jesus was carnal
  unless you  think a sheep /lamb is   animal like in nature ??  innocent and all
 
  but more of the carnal nature of the accusers of the brethren Satan    when Jesus  always done good works    satan  a symbol for a serpent /wisdom of the world
 
  I do believe  its more of the temporary  wisdom   verses the eternal Wisdom of God  battling
  remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness LED of the Holy Spirit ..   what all was there with him in that wilderness
 the WILD BEASTS  as well as the angels    the wild beasts  were what made him tempted to loose it  with them     done a massive study on them wild beasts ,  they were wicked  hearted
 it was outside of Jesus were he was tempted   ,  consider Moses loosing it with  the children of Israel  when tempted he struck the ROCK / JESUS metaphorically speaking twice  and said  it was him saving them ,  failing to give God the glory  , Jesus always gives God the glory /GOD with Him   
moses was  meek and man of God  , it took God in Jesus Christ to do it  right ...
 
 Num 12:3 (Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth.)
to me  anywhoo  :HeartThrob: You show me I am willing to learn ..
 
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline jabcat

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 07:12:47 AM »
Oh, I remembered something I'd wandered away from with this topic.  Another piece of this is, I've often said that I believe the Lake of Fire is either God's direct presence, and/or a spiritual condition He sets that brings about remorse and repentance.    However, the point I was getting at is, if that's true, and since the Lake of Fire was prepared "for the devil and his angels" - if the devil and his angels are true beings as I've always believed, then "God's direct presence and/or spiritual condition was PREPARED FOR them"?  That doesn't seem right.  If they were beings, then a literal lake of fire might more sense, except it would still mean the original intention was for "them", not anything with mankind.

On the other hand, if the devil and his angels are "those dark things inside of each of us", etc., that could make more sense - that the Lake was prepared to extenguish those things in us - not literal (or spiritual) BEINGS.    But then there's Shawn's point about Jesus being tempted.."by his own thoughts" or "dark things inside of Him"?  Something somewhere's still not adding up for me.  I can't add 1+1+1 and quite get 3 yet...  :sorry:

I can see why a literal interpretation makes sense to ET'ers...dotting i's and crossing t's on the spiritual interpretation is a bit difficult (for me - and I'm not sure I've seen anyone fully explain all the intricacies of this, although some [Mr. Eby] have some excellent thoughts on it).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 07:17:49 AM by jabcat »

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 07:42:40 AM »

 
    on the other hand  :thumbsup:    good thoughts James  :HeartThrob:  I can see both sides  of what your saying the literal is alot harder  for me  to believe now ,
 
 I also wonder if the  little member we each possess   the tongue /accusations  does not  place us in that LOF  makes me think of the rich man and Lazarus  parable .
  these explain  how the tongue and fire  set the course  , I  have no real answers , but its interesting to ponder  :HeartThrob:
 

 Psa 39:3 My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: [then] spake I with my tongue,
Psa 57:4 My soul [is] among lions: [and] I lie [even among] them that are set on fire, [even] the sons of men, whose teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning [with] his anger, and the burden [thereof is] heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Jam 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
 
 comparing these to those
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
   I wonder if the anger and fire   are  more  of the same meaning ?
 seem to not be  helping answer  clear , but just a different   way of seeing   all them things
   :dontknow:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2011, 07:55:45 AM »
Another issue I have with satan only being a symbol for our carnal minds is the testing of Jesus.  Are we suggesting Jesus was tempted by his own carnal thoughts?

Whatcha think?
Who's the greatest?
a] A man that is pure and incapeble of evil.
b] A man with a flaws just like us and can resist all flaws.  --> overcomer
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2011, 08:08:17 AM »
OK, interesting Wings.


Thanks Rosie.  You know, the orthodox explanation is, the Lake of Fire is hell and it wasn't originally intended for mankind.  It was intended for Satan and the demons.  But when Adam disobeyed and "fell", then God decided to use it for men too.   :sigh:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2011, 08:10:09 AM »
remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness LED of the Holy Spirit ..   what all was there with him in that wilderness
 the WILD BEASTS  as well as the angels    the wild beasts  were what made him tempted to loose it  with them     done a massive study on them wild beasts ,  they were wicked  hearted
Dunno if I understand you correctly but I think HS is not helping Jesus in any way. In fact HS causes trouble for Jesus.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_secrets_time_9637.msg121796.html#msg121796 (only the message you see when clicking teh link is relevant to this topic)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2011, 08:14:02 AM »
OK, interesting Wings.


Thanks Rosie.  You know, the orthodox explanation is, the Lake of Fire is hell and it wasn't originally intended for mankind.  It was intended for Satan and the demons.  But when Adam disobeyed and "fell", then God decided to use it for men too.   :sigh:
  Thanks Bro J
   that never sat well with me neither  :sigh:   never  made  sense ?? God help  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2011, 08:15:55 AM »
remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness LED of the Holy Spirit ..   what all was there with him in that wilderness
 the WILD BEASTS  as well as the angels    the wild beasts  were what made him tempted to loose it  with them     done a massive study on them wild beasts ,  they were wicked  hearted
Dunno if I understand you correctly but I think HS is not helping Jesus in any way. In fact HS causes trouble for Jesus.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_secrets_time_9637.msg121796.html#msg121796 (only the message you see when clicking teh link is relevant to this topic)
     Hi BroT ,
   How could Jesus be tempted in all points like us  IF    Jesus was never tempted ?
  Holy Spirit  knows   whats going on and does it perfectly  :icon_flower:
   How else we gonna believe  Gods Word if  we do not understand it ? 
 Its Perfect    I tell ya no doubt about it .. :HeartThrob:
 
  ok I will read your link now  :icon_king:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 08:19:07 AM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2011, 08:16:30 AM »
Oh, I remembered something I'd wandered away from with this topic.  Another piece of this is, I've often said that I believe the Lake of Fire is either God's direct presence, and/or a spiritual condition He sets that brings about remorse and repentance.
What if it isn't spiritual at all?
When you look at very literal Hebrew Moses recieved  a "fire law" aka "fiery law".
So LoF is a lake of law/justice. People are cast into the law. Meaning being subjected by the law.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2011, 08:23:51 AM »
remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness LED of the Holy Spirit ..   what all was there with him in that wilderness
 the WILD BEASTS  as well as the angels    the wild beasts  were what made him tempted to loose it  with them     done a massive study on them wild beasts ,  they were wicked  hearted
Dunno if I understand you correctly but I think HS is not helping Jesus in any way. In fact HS causes trouble for Jesus.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_secrets_time_9637.msg121796.html#msg121796 (only the message you see when clicking teh link is relevant to this topic)
     Hi BroT ,
   How could Jesus be tempted in all points like us  IF    Jesus was never tempted ?
  Holy
That's my whole point. Jesus was tempted (a lot). Flawless people can't be tempted. The whole chapter would be a waste of ink and paper.
The verse says Jesus was tempted. The verse doesn't say satan tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus never felt temptation.
And that's why I gave you that link. Jesus had no help of HS at all. If I understand the 2 goats ritual correctly the HS left when Jesus was in the wilderness.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2011, 08:46:33 AM »
remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness LED of the Holy Spirit ..   what all was there with him in that wilderness
 the WILD BEASTS  as well as the angels    the wild beasts  were what made him tempted to loose it  with them     done a massive study on them wild beasts ,  they were wicked  hearted
Dunno if I understand you correctly but I think HS is not helping Jesus in any way. In fact HS causes trouble for Jesus.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_secrets_time_9637.msg121796.html#msg121796 (only the message you see when clicking teh link is relevant to this topic)
     Hi BroT ,
   How could Jesus be tempted in all points like us  IF    Jesus was never tempted ?
  Holy
That's my whole point. Jesus was tempted (a lot). Flawless people can't be tempted. The whole chapter would be a waste of ink and paper.
The verse says Jesus was tempted. The verse doesn't say satan tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus never felt temptation.
And that's why I gave you that link. Jesus had no help of HS at all. If I understand the 2 goats ritual correctly the HS left when Jesus was in the wilderness.


The verse says Jesus was tempted. The verse doesn't say satan tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus never felt temptation
 it was by satan / devil  Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

 Mar 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

saw     the High Priest  Jesus     being tempted  by all points like us YET   WITHOUT SIN ... this is what both  describe
Strong's G3985 - peirazō 1) to try whether a thing can be done

a) to attempt, endeavour

2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself

a) in a good sense

b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments

c) to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin

1) to solicit to sin, to tempt

a) of the temptations of the devil

d) after the OT usage

1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith

2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted

3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.

Strong's G3987 - peiraō

1) to make a trial of, to attempt

a) taught by trial, experienced

2) to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof

a) his mind, sentiments, temper

b) in particular, to attempt to induce one to commit some (esp. carnal) crime

c) tempted to sin


and satan failed the test   Jesus wins  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 08:49:52 AM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 08:47:30 AM »
Just found a verse posted by TT. I think it's very relevant in this thread.

Hebrews 4:15
 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 08:52:09 AM »
Just found a verse posted by TT. I think it's very relevant in this thread.

Hebrews 4:15
 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
   GOOD  YES  :icon_flower:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 02:34:04 PM »
Oh, I remembered something I'd wandered away from with this topic.  Another piece of this is, I've often said that I believe the Lake of Fire is either God's direct presence, and/or a spiritual condition He sets that brings about remorse and repentance.
What if it isn't spiritual at all?
When you look at very literal Hebrew Moses recieved  a "fire law" aka "fiery law".
So LoF is a lake of law/justice. People are cast into the law. Meaning being subjected by the law.
 :dontknow:

ELM talks about God instituting the law for nonbelievers after the time of the anti-christ to bring them through the stages of religion as he calls them.  He says the corruption is so much by the antichrist that people will have to be educated in righteousness, starting with OT law.  Maybe thats the lake of fire?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 02:54:13 PM »
Could be Red.
I think most* OT laws are not done away as many Christians say.

*=The ones that are done away are the ones based on sacrifice, which has become useless after the final sacrifice by Jesus. Likely a few others but I think in God's eyes teh OT laws are far from done away.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Texas Son

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2011, 04:35:40 PM »
Hi TS.  Interesting comments.  Clarifying;  you are, or are not "set in stone on this theology"?  (didn't know if you may have left out a word).  Thanks, blessings.

LOL, oops as many times as I proofread that I still missed adding that "not". Thanks for catching it.

I am NOT set in stone on that theology.  :bigGrin:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2011, 01:55:25 AM »
http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm

Jesus' eyes are as flames of fire. The eye is the light of the soul. If the eye is single, the whole body is full of light. Our God is a consuming fire. Light consumes darkness. We are 'children of the day'. Let us walk in the light. Even now the "day is dawning", "the dawn is becoming full noon", "the veil that covers many nations" is being removed.Those who walk in darkness will stand before Him on the Day when He discerns/exposes the secrets of mens' hearts, for He "tries the reigns and the hearts". His eyes will search them out for "all things are opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do". Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented by exposure to the flame of light that consumes the darkness because "nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light", i.e. the secrets of every heart will be revealed. "Everything that is brought to the light becomes light"(Eph 5:13), in other words, the power of darkness is darkness/deception. Wen every secret is revealed and consumed by light , no longer in the dark having power as an adversary but humbled before Him, "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, consumed by the fire of love and the light of the cross of Jesus Christ and awakened into the glory of sacrificial love. That is why we have a wisdom that none of the principalities can understand. If they did they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory who says, BEHOLD I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW".
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 05:45:16 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2011, 02:31:03 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2011, 11:13:07 PM »
Just found a verse posted by TT. I think it's very relevant in this thread.

Hebrews 4:15
 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
   GOOD  YES  :icon_flower:

Don't know why that verse has passed me up.  Good stuff.

Offline rosered

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2011, 11:26:35 PM »

 
 good stuff last few posts   :icon_flower: Thanks  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!