Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[Molly]

All we have to offer him is Christ, the firstfruits of them that slept.


11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

 12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

 13And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

--Lev 23



For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [ day] upon the earth:

--Job 19



1 Corinthians 15:20

 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.




26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

--Job 19

[Beloved Servant]

yet in my flesh shall I see God

[Beloved Servant]

Yet what is my flesh but the golden fleece hanging upon the tree.

[pollypinks]

Okay, since KJV has been translated some 500 times since 1611, which one are we picking apart here to determine which people on this site are in the cool club?  How, then, on earth can it possibly be inerrant?  Is God perfect?  If he is perfect, why did he create 3/4 of his children, his perfect creation, to burn eternally.  It just don't make sense folks.  I do believe Jesus is my Savior, but I don't need some other individual claiming me "saved", because I've said the magical words to him.  God knows our hearts, and every single knee shall bow, and every single tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.  What else do you want?

[Ross]

So true that God is perfect.
1 Tim 2;15.16 " Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of who I am the chief;
nevertheless on this account was mercy shown to me that Christ Jesus might show forth in me, the chief, His entire longsuffering for an example of them about to beielve on Him to age-abiding life."

Paul was a pharisee who knew all the laws and was a church going man of high repute. Yet he states here that he was the chief sinner.
He was saved as a demonstration that ALL will be saved.

 Then in 1 Cor 15;2222,23  "  For just as in the Adam all die, so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive but each in his own rank; Christ a firstfruit, after that they who are in Christ's presence, afterwards the end whensoever he delivers up the kingdom to his God and Father."

Seems to state that there is a particualr process in order to a perfect plan that saves all in a particualr order.
The clearest illustration of this is like a production line. For the end product to be perfect there is a particular order or production line process. The end is great but each part of the process is in a particular order of events. Does not change the value of each part just puts them in a specific order.

[jabcat]

Amen Ross.

I'm listing some more excellent posts by pneuma on the Book of Life, which he posted on another site that's been arguing for ET and has stated that believers on Jesus, who also believe in ultimate reconciliation, are not saved and are in the grips of a demonic doctrine.   Sigh, gotta love'em anyway.  If they've called on Jesus to save them, guess what?      I personally don't want to be in the position of saying who's not a Christian.  I figure that's not up to me.  But hey, some people think they've got the right I guess.      Thankfully we/mankind are not the judge, or else there'd be about 11 people going to heaven  - if they're lucky.

Anyway, pneuma;
-- You have made the case that babies go to heaven because their name is written in the book of life, yet they have not confessed Jesus Christ as Lord before they died, so how then is it that their names are not blotted out with those who are blotted out?  [note - He has made the argument which I also believe, that there is not a salvation of innocence taught in the scriptures.  All must come through Jesus to get to the Father - jabcat].

You cannot have one standard for babies and one standard for adults concerning salvation. In order to be saved one MUST acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord. You do away with that confession when you say babies are saved because their names are written in the book of life.

Also, you state that being written in the book of life does not mean one is saved, so again how is it that you then believe babies are saved because their names are written in the book of life?

The Book of life either equates with salvation or it does not equate with salvation.

So either all were saved and some lost their salvation or the book of life does not deal with salvation at all, but rather with whether one receives judgment or not. And being judged does not mean one cannot be saved, but rather Gods judgment is in order that the world might learn righteousness. So then without Gods judgment the world would not learn righteousness. And judgement(same judgment) MUST BEGIN with the house of God.
     

Quote:
We have now talked about so many scriptures that have a definite tone of finality. 

Hi _____ . There is no finality shown concerning the book of life, the book of life only represents those who are not hurt of the second death, which is the sentence of the great white throne judgment.



Quote:
We see names blotted out, without any mention of being able to be written back in.  


I agree, names are blotted out without any mention of them being written back in, but the book of life has nothing to do with the salvation of people, it deals with those who will rule and reign with Christ, those who have not overcome have their name blotted out of this book of life.  [note - I personally suggest Romans 7 indicates that possibility - unless it's as pneuma says above, that the Book of Life is not about eternal destiny at all, but about ruling and reigning (eonian life) - jabcat].


The book of life deals with the ruling and reigning body of Christ and has nothing to do with whether one can be saved or not.


Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it. 

We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17

This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?


Quote:
We see the OT prophets, NT parables, etc., all warning of the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous.
This constant mention of separation is definitely a warning, and not a "don't let it get to ya, everything will turn out OK for ya in the end". 

I agree with the separation _____, but you stop at the judgment as if it is the end of all things, I look beyond the judgment to it purpose, which is in Isaiah 26:9
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.   

[add - For the Lord will not reject forever,
For if He causes grief,
         Then He will have compassion
         According to His abundant lovingkindness. Lamentations 3:31,32.]

[shawn]

Jab, I would love a fuller explanation of this

Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it. 

We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17

This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?

I don't see that in the verses listed.  Is there a fuller explanation of this?  Where are the verses of those without gates, then allowed to enter after judgment?

[jabcat]

Shawn, I'd have to look at it more closely, which I can do later.  Did pneuma cover that in the last post of his I posted a couple of days ago (a little earlier in the thread)?  A few thoughts I had, the first of which was never acknowledged by HansC when he was posting here;  namely, that Paul's gospels go beyond Revelation, where he does show many other things occurring, including people being saved beyond the Revelation "judgments" - in fact, all of Israel and ALL being reconciled.  Another thing I mention is Romans 7, which is an ultimate reconciliation story of the first order :).   Then thirdly, I was just reading a few minutes ago in my daily "devotional", in the last chapter of Revelation (even if one did take Revelation as "the last book of the Bible, the end of the story, etc.") - within the last 4 or 5 verses, "the Spirit and the Bride are saying 'Come'".    

[jabcat]

Does this address your question Shawn?


quote from pneuma;  "The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.

So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Or your version

15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." - end quote


This may be "answered" by some, that it's not previously unsaved getting saved and entering - (remember, they're "eternally blotted out" according to them);  but rather, that it's the already saved that are passing in and out of the city (though not blotted out, getting saved, getting unsaved, getting re-saved?)     aka, "I'm a child of God, no I'm not, I'm a child of God again, no I'm not"....

[jabcat]

P.S.  Pneuma's contention is that the Book of Life is not about salvation anyway, but about overcomers/those ruling and reigning/aionian llife.  If that's the case, then it sheds a different light on things anyway.  I'm personally not sure.  Either way, I just believe the "story" continues.   

[shawn]

Ok, I see what he is saying.  I can't say that Revelations is a chapter I understand.  So, I have no idea if what he is saying is correct that Christians are already in.  I had always assumed it was talking about believers. 

[eaglesway]

Jab, I would love a fuller explanation of this

Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it. 

We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17

This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?

I don't see that in the verses listed.  Is there a fuller explanation of this?  Where are the verses of those without gates, then allowed to enter after judgment?

I went into this in some detail earlier in the topic. I agree with pneuma completely. The second death is for those who are not in the book of life in the first and second resurrections- those who are in the BOL do not experience the "second death", which is the lake of fire- which in my opinion is submersion(baptism so to speak) in overwhelming light/fire (His eyes are as flames of fire... evrything that is hidden in darkness will be brought to light) until evry knee bows(phil 2:9,10) and every adversary is subjected (1 Cor 15:23-28) so that evrything is gathered into one in Christ(eph 1:9,10) and God is ALL IN ALL(1 Cor 15) because "From Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11).

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg117278.html#msg117278

 However, as far as the city is concerned, it is NOW, in the ETERNAL MOMENT....Everything in Johns revelation is WAS<IS>IS TO COME, meaning true in the past present and future....This eternal moment WAS, IS & WILL BE the TODAY of God and it is SWALLOWING UP mortality and we will AWAKE in the fulness of it ON THE DAY..... in Hebrews 12 it says we HAVE COME(note the tense) to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the Spirits of Righteous men made perfect(surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses), to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE FIRSTBORN REGISTERED IN HEAVEN(Book of Life-universal aionian overcomers church :o). That is why we must ABIDE.....CONTINUE IN THE WORD.The dogs and the sorcerers are outside NOW, they cannot get in until they come through the firelight of His eyes(Heb 4:12) & WASH THEIR ROBES IN WHITE. The Bride(heavenly Jerusalem) is "coming down out of the heavens" NOW, (Jesus said "I am the bread of life that comes down out of heaven)in the Spirit, among the overcomers in every generation wherever the body of Christ is truly revealed and the Bride is ADORNED and MADE READY, dressed in RIGHTEOUS ACTS. In a sense all of this is NOW for each of us, and it will be revealed in the moment of resurrection, whether it be to the resurrection of life or the resurection unto kolassis(fire/light/correction). That is why the wise virgins STAY IN THE NOW FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT WATCHING AND LISTENING FOR THE CALL .... THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH!!! They are able to "Come Out" far enough to make the WEDDING FEAST(union of Bride and Bridegroom). In order to be married you must "yield your body"(Romans 12:1-3). Awake o sleeper and arise form the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you. Come out of her, and be a clean and separate people!

[shawn]

Very interesting.  I don't believe I have ever heard or read that take on the BoL, Revelations etc. 

[eaglesway]

It is siimply my view, I am not trying to present it as doctrine. I think however that the scriptures support this view as well as any I have read so far.....but we see through a glass darkly :o)

While many try to argue historical view versus fulfilled view, I think both views are united in the "was and is and is to come" of the I AM, which is NOW....

The enemy Was and Is Not and Will Be- always in the past and future, never in the present.

The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you dont kno where it is coming from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

[jabcat]

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.  Phil. 1:6

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith..  Heb. 12:2

[jabcat]

In the following excerpt from J. Preston Eby's writings, I believe he's saying a couple of important things that orthodoxy/fundamentalism doesn't see/teach...what are your thoughts on Mr. Eby's view of the Book of Life?


"From our infancy we have all been accustomed to hear about the Lamb's book of Life, but how many of us know where the idea came from, and exactly what it stands for? Is it not possible that some of us have an inadequate and even a perverted notion as to the proper interpretation of the metaphor?

We have entertained such carnal notions when we come to the book of Revelation. The book of revelation is a book of revealing – and we are in an hour of revealing. The Holy Spirit must teach us the very first principles of this book – it is a book given by signs. "He sent and sign-i-fied it unto us..." (Rev. 1:1). The Lord communicated it unto us in the form of signs and symbols, that is what the Greek word means, and no symbol is ever to be taken in its literal form. We must pass the signs in order to get to the language of the Spirit.

Many ancient societies kept extensive genealogical records and registered citizens for different purposes (Neh. 7:5,64; 12:22-23). In the same way, the fact that God has a Book of Life shows that God is aware of all His creation, particularly those people with whom He is specially working. Paul wrote that the believers in Philippi should "help these women and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life" (Phil. 4:3). "For our citizenship is in heaven," he explained (Phil. 3:20). You can be sure these saints were encouraged by this acknowledgment.

What joy flooded my soul in the contemplation of my very own name written in heaven in the Lamb's Book of Life! However, in my early walk with God, it also seemed to me an easy matter to have one's name blotted out of that blessed Book. I was raised with a strict "pentecostal" and "holiness" mentality – and there was no security in our relationship with God. According to our tradition one could be saved by faith one moment and lost and doomed for hell the next moment by disobedience. You could be lost eternally simply by going to bed at night with unconfessed sin in your life. If you thought and evil thought, or committed some sinful act, and should die in the night before it was confessed and made right – you would "bust hell wide open." I do not hesitate to tell you, my beloved, that such an absurd and unscriptural concept IS HELL! But because of my struggles with youthful temptations and the flesh life, I was quite certain that God had appointed one particular angel exclusively to my case, and he was engaged in nothing else but writing my name in, and blotting it out again from the Book of Life!

THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB is the autobiography of God's Lamb, the record of who He is, what He is like, and what He does. Everything you always wanted to know about the Son of God is contained in this wonderful Book of the Life of the Lamb! It is not a literal book, of course, for the sons and daughters of the Most High are the LIVING RECORD AND REVELATION of the life of the indwelling Lamb. It was to the apostle Paul that the revelation was given that the Book of Life, the Book of the Lamb, the Book of the Son of God is a people. "Forasmuch as YOU are manifestly declared to be THE EPISTLE OF CHRIST ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Who also has made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life" (II Cor. 3:3,6).

How pitiful that the people of earth for the most part have never read this beautiful epistle of Christ, this glorious BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB. They have poured over the books of religion, the books of man's theology, the books of hypocrisy, the books of fleshly wisdom, forms of godliness, dead doctrines, static creeds, empty rituals and ceremonies, and man-made rules and regulations. But precious few have ever seen THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB! Oh! What a wonderful gospel shall fill the earth beneath and the celestial realms above when God opens His holy Book of Life! The Book of Life is that blessed company of the sons of God, elect, chosen and transformed into the image of Christ throughout the ages. This Book is being carefully written word by word, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, page by page, and chapter by chapter in the nitty-gritty of our daily experience with God until the full revelation of the Christ shall be set forth therein. Time's clock is striking the hour and the time is drawing wonderfully nigh for the manifestation of the sons of God, the opening of God's Book of Life People, and what a manifestation it shall be! All creation from time immemorial has groaned and travailed for the manifestation of God's sons, to deliver creation at last from the bondage of corruption.

God has a MESSAGE for the world – the revelation of Jesus Christ! This message is being written in flaming words of glory upon the pages of the lives and hearts and minds of men and women who are dying to that impudent and death-dealing devil of self, in order to walk and live by the spirit of HIS LIFE. I am terribly at a loss of words to express the glory of God's BOOK OF LIFE COMPANY, but I can assure you that once it is fully ready, prepared and published it shall become the world's "best seller" throughout the ages to come! As the pen is mightier than the sword, so this Book, above any that has ever been written by the finger of man, shall alter the course of history, and the dark covering that has been cast over the minds and hearts of the people for ages and dispensations will be completely destroyed by the flood of transforming light and wisdom and knowledge and glory and power shining forth from the living pages of God's eternal and incorruptible BOOK OF LIFE!

HOW THE BOOK IS WRITTEN
I want to help you grasp why you are here – you are being prepared to reveal the invisible God to the visible creation...."

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lb/LB1.htm

[reFORMer]

I have had approximately the same concept of "The Scroll of the Living(s)" that Eby expresses.

As well, in the language of the genetic code of the glorified Jesus, there is logical expression, the word of God being manifest in flesh.  Oh!  What just one immortal red blood platelet can do! the incorruptible and permanently existing components of Jesus' blood poured out into this universe!!!

[WhiteWings]

I quoted a whole bunch of verses for context, but my point is verse 13. (and 15)
The person is blotted out/not remembered/spoken about for 1 generation.
So perhaps people are taken out of BoL for just 1 age?

^ACVPsalms 109
1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise,
2 for they have opened against me the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of deceit. They have spoken to me with a lying tongue.
3 They have also encompassed me about with words of hatred, and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries, but I [make] prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him, and let an adversary stand at his right hand.
7 When he is judged, let him come forth guilty, and let his prayer be turned into sin.
8 Let his days be few, [and] let another take his office.
9 Let his sons be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his sons be vagabonds, and beg, and let them seek out of their desolate places.
11 Let a creditor exact all that he has, and let strangers make spoil of his labor.
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor let there be any to have pity on his fatherless sons.
13 Let his posterity be cut off. In the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth,
16 because he did not remember to show kindness, but persecuted the poor and needy man, and the broken in heart, to kill.
17 Yea, he loved cursing, and it came to him. And he did not delight in blessing, and it was far from him.
18 He also clothed himself with cursing as with his garment, and it came into his inward parts like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be to him as the raiment with which he covers himself, and for the belt with which he is girded continually.
20 This is the reward of my adversaries from LORD, and of those who speak evil against my soul.


דּר  /  דּור
dôr
BDB Definition:
1) period, generation, habitation, dwelling
1a) period, age, generation (period of time)
1b) generation (those living during a period)
1c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)
1d) dwelling-place, habitation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H1752
Same Word by TWOT Number: 418b

[Cardinal]

  Blotted out for one generation is correct (see Psalm 109). A capital crime such as becoming a Christian had become as we are told in Acts, meant that the scribes were unable to talk about you for a generation, in effect, blotting your name out of the geneological records and records of exploits of that person, that the scribes were commissioned to record by the King. The NT writers, were in essence, commissioned by THE King, to write the geneologies, following the custom.

Jesus committed a capital crime according to the Pharisees (blasphemy) and so they themselves waited a generation to discuss Him (and others) in their Talmudic writings. Everything in there is done for a reason, according to pattern, and the Jew's part was to walk out the patterns for us to see. My 

[eaglesway]

Possibility??: Those who believe have "passed from death into life"- hence their names are written in the Lambs book of life- death has no more reign over them "even tho he die yet shall he live". Those who are unbelieving, or have ceased to abide in Christ, are not done with death yet, so their names are not in written in, or perhaps are "blotted out" of the book of life. (Like branches "withered, cut off, gathered, burned John 15 with 1 Cor 3:13-17) It (BoL) is the list of those who have no more need of the "wages of sin" and are through with the consequence of separation and are to "enter the joy of their Lord"-which is aionios zoe).

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

We are to judge no one- only the Lord knows those who are His. We simply carry the word of reconciliation, the word of resurrection, the word of the Lordship and Kingdom of Jesus and a warning of the wrath to come.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)

There are "believers" among all men, who, though their understanding may be unfruitful, show by their deeds (as the Samaritan man of the parable) that they agree with the law of God in their hearts. God, knowing the secrets of their hearts will vindicate them. At the same time some who proclaim "Lord, Lord" on the Day will need a little touch up in the fire- and find that their names have been "blotted out" of the Lamb's book.

"Blessed and holy are they who partake of the first resurrection, for over them the second death has no power"-   so many possibilities