Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[eaglesway]

I say "we" are kings by faith, there is no guarantee that I will be among the saved and I might be among the ones being judged at the throne room, but by faith , that he will complete the work in me and in those that have called upon his name, or those who he chose, whatever your persepctive is.

I agree entirely, as did Paul.......



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      But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

      Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you

[jabcat]

It would make an interesting study, the different types of believers, i.e. overcomers, kings, priests, those saved as by fire/delivered to satan with works burned/spirit saved...  There does seem to possibly be a select group within the elect/saved.  Some call them overcomers or Manifest Sons of God as opposed to the "regular old saved folks"  .    Paul said the basics of salvation are based on grace not works;  that even though some are the elect (saved now in this lifetime), there's still nothing we can boast of, it's totally grace through faith that's not our own, it's a gift of God.  We can know we're saved;  whoever calls on Jesus, whoever believes on/confesses Him as Savior are saved.  Romans 8:16 says "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God". 

There are also scriptures that say God ensures it;  predestined in Him unto good works;  He Who began a good work in you will complete it;  He will keep that "which I've committed until that day";  He's the Author and Finisher of our faith, etc.  Seems Paul, even though he taught all these things about the basic salvation being ensured for the ecclesia, and that works had nothing to do with it -  just our faith given to us placed in Jesus Christ - He still sought to attain a "status" (poor word choice) or rewards, position of responsibility/service, a level of maturity ("perfection") beyond the norm. 

So saved by grace not works, yet still some other "position" having to do with overcoming and/or exemplary maturity...I've seen some describe it as "serving God at the throne" vs. "worshiping around the throne"?   I personally think they're different things, different "levels" somehow, but I don't have the best handle on it.  I'm one of those "happy to slip in" based on the blood of Jesus applied to my heart when He convicted me a pulled me to Him - through absolutely NOTHING of my own.   

[Molly]

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you

This is like a bright jewel to me.  It's like waking up on Christmas morning when I was a child.  It's the excitement of the first days of Spring.  It's like fireworks on the fourth of July filling the sky with explosions of colored light.

Where would these feelings come from if not God?

We are all so blessed to understand, no matter what level of understanding we have, even as a mustard seed.

It's a gift.  There's no doubt in my mind.  It's a gift.

And every other gift I have, pales by comparison.



Philippians 3:8-9 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-

[onlytruth]

I think encouragement is key, isn't there supposed to be a cloud of witnesses that are watching and wanting us to succeed?

[Molly]

I think encouragement is key, isn't there supposed to be a cloud of witnesses that are watching and wanting us to succeed?

Absolutely.  And, aren't we part of that cloud?

Romans 1:12
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.

[onlytruth]

maybe someone should start a thread ...where all that is mentioned is where people overcome or receive revelation to overcome whatever is going on in their lives.
heres a quick one...I am a aux rcmp(police).One nite racing back to get a camera to take pictures of an accident ,I was almost at the station when the last lite went red.riding with another aux. I yelled "GO GREEN",the lite changed immediately!This shocked the aux. with me as well as the person who was proceeding through his green lite and had to put his car in reverse and go back and wait!
kinda of cool what is possible when we receive the authority...
blessings

[eaglesway]

Wow, cool..... I'm gonna try it on myself


"GO HUMBLE"

"GO KIND!"

"GO FAITHFUL"

"GO AGAPE"

Thanks for the tip ;o)

[jabcat]

I ripped this off from another forum that's been discussing the Book of Life.  This is a UR believer responding to another member there, and I thought it was good -

Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Quote:
"....those who wash their robes...." refers to a scene recorded in Revelations 7:9-17 For your reference:
Quote:
Those who have washed their robes are those believers who were martyred during the Tribuation period on earth. That event occurs before any people are judged and thrown into the LoF.
-------

… you cannot equate Rev.7:9-17, which is before the judgment with that which is after the judgment as Rev.22:14-17 is speaking of.

Chapter 21 speaks of the New Jerusalem, the holy city and the new heavens and earth. Verse 8 of that chapter states

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Notice that they shall have their PART in the lake.


Chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 and starts this way
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

Notice that the tree of life is for the healing of the nations.

Who needs to be healed if all who are ever going to be saved are already saved when God establishes the New Jerusalem?


It is those that have their PART in the lake of fire.

Verse 14 of 22 states
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice that those who keep his commandments have right to the tree of life and can enter into the gates of the city.

The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.

So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Or your version

15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 17 goes on to say

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

Who are the thirsty ones? Have not the Christian inside the gates of the city already partaken of the water of life? Have not those on the inside of the gates already heard the Spirit and the bride say come? Yes and Yes, so who does that leave us with? Those WITHOUT the gates, who are those WITHOUT the gates? The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Gods judgments when they come into the earth are so that the world might learn righteousness. One does not learn righteousness by being endlessly tormented.

God judgments all have a purpose, so what could the purpose of endless torment teach anyone?
   
 

 
________________________________________
Quote:
"once they learn to keep the commandments of God?" is not in Rev.22:14-17.
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…verse 14 states in the KJV

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Obviously one must learn to keep his commandments in order to have the right to the tree of life.


Quote:
Revelation 22:6-21 is a salutation of the prophesy, not a continuation of events of the prophesy.
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Revelation 22:14-17 is part of that salutation, and there is nothing within that text which suggests those without have any opportunity of repentance to be allowed into the city.

I disagree, there are no chapters or verses in the original scriptures, chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 for 22 starts off with (And he shewed me) which is not a salutation but something further God wanted John to see


Quote:
In fact, verse 11 tells us this:
Revelation 22
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
"Still" has a meaning of "from that time".
-----------

And that tells us what? That those who are filthy will be filthy from that time, how long is from that time?

You seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.


Quote:
The final separation is those (unfaithful) in the lake of fire (without the city) from those (faithful) in the New Jerusalem (in the city).
----------

If it is a final separation, how are those WITHOUT the gates allowed to enter into the city?


Obviously the faithful at this time are already in the city, so who is it that is WITHOUT that is allowed to ENTER?


Quote:
Matthew 25
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a place PREPARED for spirit beings.
Spirit beings have no atonement, for there is no blood of spirit beings.
Once you become a spirit being (resurrection), there no longer is an atonement for you.

Quote:
You are cast into the lake of fire when you are a spirit being.
There is no atonement for you there.
----------


Two things

First if it is PREPARED it is NOT eternal.

Second That is your opinion but scripture tells us otherwise. Read my post 13 in the universalism section will angels someday be saved.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

[Molly]

You seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.

This is interesting.

[He that is unjust let him be unjust]

"still"
G2089
ἔτι
eti
et'-ee
Perhaps akin to G2094; "yet", still (of time or degree): - after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-) henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more (-one), now, still, yet.


G2094
ἔτος
etos
et'-os
Apparently a primary word; a year: - year.


What's interesting about this theory is the description of the tree within the city that is for the healing of the nations--there is a fruit for every month of the year.

On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

--Rev 22:2


Here's 9 fruits.  What are the other 3?


 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

--Gal 5

[jabcat]

Good observations, Mol.

This is from Judaism 101 - "the Hebrew term Gehinnom became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every shabbath day is excluded from punishment.."

This reminds me of a vision I read about - can't remember where or who.  But their vision was of corrective punishment/discipline in the "afterlife".  They said even during the discipline, angels were looking on [concerned] and at the end of a session/day, the angels ministered to those being disciplined;  caring for them, comforting them, attending to their needs. Whether accurate or not, I don't know.  I'd like to think so.

[Molly]

And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12


This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTEzek 47
12 And by the stream there cometh up on its edge, on this side and on that side, every kind of fruit-tree whose leaf fadeth not, and not consumed is its fruit, according to its months it yieldeth first-fruits, because its waters from the sanctuary are coming forth; and its fruits hath been for food, and its leaf for medicine.

Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.

The tree of good and evil (fig tree) was the only tree that didn't whiter away in the garden of Eden. Just like the tree in this verse. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.msg98042.html#msg98042
The  garden of Eden is the holies of holies. So it's rivers flow out of the sanctuary.
I believe the verse is about the garden of Eden but I don't know why the fruit is for eating and the leaves for healing.

The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2201

In Rev. there is a similar verse about the Tree of Life. But the way I see it there is just one tree. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg116949.html#msg116949
That may seem as a contradiction because Ez. is quite clear with "banks"

שׂפת  /  שׂפה
śâphâh  /  śepheth
BDB Definition:
1) lip, language, speech, shore, bank, brink, brim, side, edge, border, binding
1a) lip (as body part)
1b) language
1c) edge, shore, bank (of cup, sea, river, etc)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: probably from H5595 or H8192 through the idea of termination (compare H5490)

It's a complex word with roots that seem sometimes not very related. This one is interesting

סוף
sôph
BDB Definition:
1) end, conclusion
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5486
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1478a

My thoughts:

Jesus sits on His throne. Under His throne ends (read starts) a river. Jesus is the Tree of Life.

12 months, 12 fruits, 12 leaves, 12 tribes 

[jabcat]

Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.


The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock

Hebrews 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. 27 And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

[WhiteWings]

Mmm, Jesus does have a voice....
Judgement?

[jabcat]

If so, then I see judgment and healing going together, as in shaking and healing being from the same root word.  Again, consuming what's not of God, all that's remaining being of God.  I'd never noticed the scrip "our God's a consuming fire" linked with the shaking scrip before.  As Molly said, this is going somewhere.   

[jabcat]

P.S.  And it ain't ET.   

[WhiteWings]

If so, then I see judgment and healing going together,

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/aionios_kolasis_5953.msg61991.html#msg61991

as in shaking and healing being from the same root word.

Not exactly. One root word of healing is another word that means healing. But the second root word means shaking.
I wonder what Polel means.

My lexicon mentions the root words but also "Same Word by TWOT Number: 2201"
I don't know what TWOT means but if I assume it's just another Strong number I find cry.
זעקה  /  זעק
za‛aq  /  ze‛âqâh
BDB Definition:
1) cry, outcry
1a) outcry
1b) cry of distress
1c) outcry, clamour
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H2199
Same Word by TWOT Number: 570a

The root word of cry


zâ‛aq
BDB Definition:
1) to cry, cry out, call, call for help
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to call (to one's aid)
1a2) to cry, cry out (in need)
1b) (Niphal) to be assembled, be called together, be joined together
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to call, call out, call together, summon
1c2) to make a crying, proclaim
1c3) to have a proclamation made
1c4) to call out to, call out at
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 570

Finally that TWOT number for more confusion...
אמשׁ
'emesh
BDB Definition:
1) yesterday, last night
2) recently (figuratively)
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: unknown derivation
Same Word by TWOT Number: 120

It keeps linking to other words like adam, the place of the tabernacle, red, God. So I'm not sure how far it's useful to trace the words back.
I checked some random Hebrew words and kept going back using that TWOT. Some were dead ends because the translators were unable to find the root. But 7 out of 10 all traced back to the word H1 = God
(the other 3 words are dead ends)

[WhiteWings]

Again, consuming what's not of God, all that's remaining being of God.  I'd never noticed the scrip "our God's a consuming fire" linked with the shaking scrip before.

^YLTIsa 30
33 For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile is fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!

Brimstone purifies. And what's pure is healty.

[Molly]

Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.


The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock

Hebrews 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. 27 And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Did somebody else say this or did I dream it?  He's shaking out everything that can be shaken out--leaving only that which cannot be shaken, Christ.  That's the healing.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,

--He 12

[Taffy]

And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12


This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where.

ALL men are Trees[ Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. aka - and the Righteuos Shall grow as CEDARS] - Leaves are a Covering - ALL life is GRASS = green-
Isa 40:6

Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?


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Jer 17:7   Blessed [is] the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 


 Jer 17:8   For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and [that] spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

The River of Life[ WATERS] came from the Under the Temple [ EZ] spoken in John Jhn 7:37  In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 


 Jhn 7:38   He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

The Fruit\seed is GROWN in the WOMB= Garden = belly =MIND,...

Christ is  the Tithe[ our increase] - the SEED of the Land and the FRUIT of the Trees[ all men are TREES]

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD

Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled

 

He is the RIVER ,we are the Trees, founded on the Tribes\Apostles , HE is the ROOTof the TREES, HE is the FRUIT of the Trees, who bears FRUITthrough US, the Trees

[thinktank]

I ripped this off from another forum that's been discussing the Book of Life.  This is a UR believer responding to another member there, and I thought it was good -

Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Quote:
"....those who wash their robes...." refers to a scene recorded in Revelations 7:9-17 For your reference:
Quote:
Those who have washed their robes are those believers who were martyred during the Tribuation period on earth. That event occurs before any people are judged and thrown into the LoF.
-------

… you cannot equate Rev.7:9-17, which is before the judgment with that which is after the judgment as Rev.22:14-17 is speaking of.

Chapter 21 speaks of the New Jerusalem, the holy city and the new heavens and earth. Verse 8 of that chapter states

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Notice that they shall have their PART in the lake.


Chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 and starts this way
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

Notice that the tree of life is for the healing of the nations.

Who needs to be healed if all who are ever going to be saved are already saved when God establishes the New Jerusalem?


It is those that have their PART in the lake of fire.

Verse 14 of 22 states
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice that those who keep his commandments have right to the tree of life and can enter into the gates of the city.

The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.

So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Or your version

15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 17 goes on to say

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

Who are the thirsty ones? Have not the Christian inside the gates of the city already partaken of the water of life? Have not those on the inside of the gates already heard the Spirit and the bride say come? Yes and Yes, so who does that leave us with? Those WITHOUT the gates, who are those WITHOUT the gates? The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Gods judgments when they come into the earth are so that the world might learn righteousness. One does not learn righteousness by being endlessly tormented.

God judgments all have a purpose, so what could the purpose of endless torment teach anyone?
   
 

 
________________________________________
Quote:
"once they learn to keep the commandments of God?" is not in Rev.22:14-17.
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…verse 14 states in the KJV

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Obviously one must learn to keep his commandments in order to have the right to the tree of life.


Quote:
Revelation 22:6-21 is a salutation of the prophesy, not a continuation of events of the prophesy.
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Revelation 22:14-17 is part of that salutation, and there is nothing within that text which suggests those without have any opportunity of repentance to be allowed into the city.

I disagree, there are no chapters or verses in the original scriptures, chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 for 22 starts off with (And he shewed me) which is not a salutation but something further God wanted John to see


Quote:
In fact, verse 11 tells us this:
Revelation 22
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
"Still" has a meaning of "from that time".
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And that tells us what? That those who are filthy will be filthy from that time, how long is from that time?

You seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.


Quote:
The final separation is those (unfaithful) in the lake of fire (without the city) from those (faithful) in the New Jerusalem (in the city).
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If it is a final separation, how are those WITHOUT the gates allowed to enter into the city?


Obviously the faithful at this time are already in the city, so who is it that is WITHOUT that is allowed to ENTER?


Quote:
Matthew 25
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a place PREPARED for spirit beings.
Spirit beings have no atonement, for there is no blood of spirit beings.
Once you become a spirit being (resurrection), there no longer is an atonement for you.

Quote:
You are cast into the lake of fire when you are a spirit being.
There is no atonement for you there.
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Two things

First if it is PREPARED it is NOT eternal.

Second That is your opinion but scripture tells us otherwise. Read my post 13 in the universalism section will angels someday be saved.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

This is one of the best posts, if not the best I have seen concerning the lake of fire and how the liars etc are outside, this is one of the best evidence to support what LOF means in terms of a purging fire. Nicely written. I'm still not totally convinced but this is a big step in that direction of LOF = purging fire.
Good find jabcat
 

[legoman]

I believe that was pneuma who posted it.  Good stuff!   

Especially the part about Rev 22:11 "let him be filthy still" - still can have a meaning of "for a time" - not forever.

Although the counterpoint might be that it also says "let him be righteous still"... ? Filthy temporarily, but righteous forever? 

[jabcat]

I believe that was pneuma who posted it.  Good stuff!   

Especially the part about Rev 22:11 "let him be filthy still" - still can have a meaning of "for a time" - not forever.

Although the counterpoint might be that it also says "let him be righteous still"... ? Filthy temporarily, but righteous forever?

Yes it was Scott.  I try to keep things anonymous (from Discussion Forums) unless it's copyrighted material that needs credited.  But yes, that was from pneuma/Scott.   

[Molly]

And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12

This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where.

ALL men are Trees[ Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. aka - and the Righteuos Shall grow as CEDARS] - Leaves are a Covering - ALL life is GRASS = green-
Isa 40:6

Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?


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Jer 17:7   Blessed [is] the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 


 Jer 17:8   For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and [that] spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

The River of Life[ WATERS] came from the Under the Temple [ EZ] spoken in John Jhn 7:37  In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 


 Jhn 7:38   He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

The Fruit\seed is GROWN in the WOMB= Garden = belly =MIND,...

Christ is  the Tithe[ our increase] - the SEED of the Land and the FRUIT of the Trees[ all men are TREES]

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD

Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled

 

He is the RIVER ,we are the Trees, founded on the Tribes\Apostles , HE is the ROOTof the TREES, HE is the FRUIT of the Trees, who bears FRUITthrough US, the Trees

yep.  That's exactly where it was going lol.

ALL men are trees walking.  What kind of tree are you?  You will
know them by their fruit.

[Beloved Servant]

The fig will wither.
Others are gilded in GOLD!