Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[eaglesway]

In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.

Books are opened and an other Book was opened.

Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind

That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"

So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.

Cool

[Molly]

The Servant of the LORD

 1 Listen to me, you islands;
   hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the LORD called me;
   from my mother's womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
   in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
   and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, "You are my servant,
   Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."
4 But I said, "I have labored in vain;
   I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand,
   and my reward is with my God."
 5 And now the LORD says—
   he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
   and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
   and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
   to restore the tribes of Jacob
   and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
   that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

 7 This is what the LORD says—
   the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
   to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and stand up,
   princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD, who is faithful,
   the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

--Isa 49




Leviticus 4:6
and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.


Isaiah 52:15
so he will sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

[jabcat]

Without it, the whole UR message in the scriptures doesn't come anywhere close to falling apart, since there's somewhere between 100-200 very clear promises in the Word about God bringing mankind ultimately to salvation.  I think those can stand on their own as a framework for God's PLAN.   

However, Romans 11 is about being grafted back in.  That would be millions of individuals God said could be brought back in if He chose to do so.  Even further, He says He will do so eventually, as in "all Israel shall be saved".  Cut off for a season, grafted back, all saved.

Thank you Father for Your love and mercy.  You are awesome.

Worship Him.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZaXKFdRMW8

[Nathan]

Molly

My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.

You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.

So you had someone other than you do your believing for you?  You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?

You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?

Shawn

That is my experience as well.

You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.

So you had someone other than you do your believing for you?  You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?

You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?

No doubt God is at work around us, but at the bottom line, it is for each individual to receive Christ by faith, while God will give you the faith, you still must be the one to actually take action, God will not make the confession for you, neither will it matter if others make the confession of faith for you. That is up to you, alone.

Molly

I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.

As I gave you a more detailed explanation of how the Greek term works.

They seem the same to me.

I'm sure they are since they are both based upon the Calvinist understanding. The better explanation of the Greek that I gave you comes from a friend that has the best command of Greek I've ever come across.

they mean ordained before [from the beginning].

I think we already covered that. Yes, the plans were laid in advance. Yes Jesus does have a wonderful plan for your life, but if a person rejects Him they miss the plan. Do you think that's controversial? I don't.

Think of it like this.

A parent plans on giving their kids a big chocolate cake Saturday night.  She has planned that it advance. She has preordained it. The cake is already cooked and in the cupboard.

She tells her kids about her preordained plan, and that IF they mow the lawn and clean the house then they will get what she has planned in advance for them.  When Sat night comes, two of the kids did their share but one did not.

She had preordained and planned in advance, in essence predestined that ALL three of her kids get the chocolate cake, but because of their choices only two kids get the chocolate cake and one is sent to bed without cake.

Only two got the cake, but it was still her preordained, planned in advance plan that ALL three get it.

Yes, God has planned a wonderful plan in advance for a person's life, but unless that person receives Christ then they will not experience God's plan for their life. 





 

 

I think part of the reason there's some caution to this sort of thinking isn't because that it's totally bogus, but it does seem to come close to a line that tradition has reinforced and we no longer adhere to it.  What is it that the "saved" part is affecting?  What "is" God's plan for us?  Are you speaking about current state?  Or finished state?  Because God's overall plan is already finished and man's final destination has already been addressed and is now established.  "That" plan is in effect regardless as to whether I make a conscious decision as to whether Jesus is or isn't who he claimed he is to be.  God's already taken over with the driving of that truck already.

However, if you're referring to current state, which is God's plan for our lives here and now . . .it's not that our rejection of him would cause him to go to a plan "B", there is no plan B with God . . .There are many, many examples in Scripture where God had a plan "A" and the person he had chosen to carry out plan A suggested he go to a plan B because for personal reasons, they were not interested in being involved in his plan A.  So did he leave them and go to someone else?  Or did he convince them there is no plan B? 

Abraham came up with his own plan B and slept with Hagar, thinking that was God's plan A . . .God still honored his covenant with Hagar because the covenant he made with Abraham was in Abraham's seed . . .it's the seed that carries the anointing, not so much the container that the seed is carried in (Abraham's flesh).

The point is, Salvation is still a HUGE issue here.  It's still just as important as it ever was.  But what it is that Salvation "does" is what's sort of changed in my mind . . .salvation isn't about final destination.  Salvation is about "seeing" the principles of the kingdom while still living on the earth . . it's about reproducing the life of Christ through "us" into "others".  And I can't reproduce Christ in others unless I've experienced Christ within me first. 

What do you suppose we are being saved "from?"

Careful . . that's a loaded question.

[Molly]

The word translated "predestined" is prooridzo. It occurs six times in the NT (Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, 11).

It literally means "to mark out a boundary in advance," and in practical meaning, that is "to plan in advance." It is derived from a verb that means "to mark out a boundary," from which we get our word "horizon" (as in, the horizon is the "boundary" or "limit" of how far we can see). The idea of "marking a boundary" has the meaning of "planning" in everyday language from the idea that a plan is something that metaphorically "draws a boundary around, or sets the limits of" our future actions.

The problem is that in ENGLISH, predestined means that what has been planned in advance WILL HAPPEN. There is nothing we can do about it. If God predestines something, it WILL happen.

That is NOT what this Greek word means.

It contains no inherent concept that the plan or boundaries that are drawn in advance WILL happen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. God has made a plan for our lives, WAY in advance of when we were even born. We can fulfil that plan, or we can reject God, and miss that plan.

Because of the "predestination" versus "free will" argument, most people think the two are contradictory (if one is true, the other cannot be true).

The irony is that "free will" and "predestination" go hand in hand. When God "predestined" us to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are told that He has made a wonderful plan for our lives to be LIKE His Son. We have the free will to accept or reject that plan.

So all "predestined" means is "to plan in advance."


The point is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible.  But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice"  This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination.  The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.

So, Yes, to true Biblical predestination.
NO, to Calvin's pre-determinism, falsely labeled as predestination.     

Do you mean the best laid schemes of God and men / Go oft awry?

Let's look some more at that word predestinate [proorizō] which comes from two Greek words:



G4253
πρό
pro
pro
A primary preposition; "fore", that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.


G3724
ὁρίζω
horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.



So what does this word mean in our context?  God has marked out the bounds of something, appointed someone, declared something, determined something, limited something, or ordained something --before it happens.

Now you mention 'horizon', as an example of a limiting factor.  I suppose you are thinking, this person has to walk to the horizon to be saved and he refuses to do it?  I'm not really sure what you are thinking.  But consider this, the bars on a jail cell are also a boundary, a limiting factor.   What kind of horizon does a man in a jail cell have?  How far can he walk?

Paul explains this limiting factor in more detail here--So let's hear what God has to say--


9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

--Rom 9


So it's all about a God that shows mercy, Hans.  And, guess what?  He shows mercy to all! [Rom 11:32]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsCp5LG_zNE

[Hansc]

Nathan

What is it that the "saved" part is affecting?

It is affects a person's relationship with God, from an alienated separation to a reconciliation of shared Life. 

"That" plan is in effect regardless as to whether I make a conscious decision as to whether Jesus is or isn't who he claimed he is

Then we will just have to disagree on this. I believe that believing Christ, believing in His resurrection and receiving Him as Lord makes a difference not just in the short run, but also in the long run.

God's already taken over with the driving of that truck already.

We will also have to disagree on this also.  While God may indeed be calling unto a person and even moving in his life to bring them to a point of receiving Christ, nonetheless that does not absolve a person of their obligations to believe and receive Christ.  God certainly will give you the faith you need, but He will not do your believing and receiving for you. That is a person's responsibility.

Nathan, and the rest, while this thread has been fun, I need to leave.  I think that we have each had opportunity to express our various views. 

I'm leaving, for now, because of time demands in my job are heating up and I need every sliver of time possible over the next 2-3 months.  All of you have been gracious hosts and perhaps after I take care of the pressing demands on me I will have more time on my hands to come back for a visit.

Peace out, Hans 

[shawn]

I really appreciate your views Hans.  I have personally wavered between both these sets of beliefs for much of my adult life.  I understand both sides of this very tough subject to understand.

Personal accountability...how much of a role do we have in all of this?

I do know much of the Bible is written as we do have a significant role.  There are many instructions on living.  I really like the book of James, much wisdom for living there.  So one must think that we do indeed have some role.

When I think of predestination, I do believe in election and in true predestination not just foresight.  But, I don't believe that means all our steps have been marched out for us.  I believe God is moving us from point A to point B.  Within that framework, we move, stumble, are redirected, corrected, stumble less, mature, grow in relationship, learn etc.

When I speak about Christ driving the truck, that doesn't mean I don't try to take hold of the wheel.  It means this process, this road I walk is Christ driven and directed.  He knows where we are going, he has the directions, he IS the direction.

[marie glen]

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.

Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.

(thanks CHB for contribution)

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.

Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.

(thanks CHB for contribution)

This shows me that it's still not too late for me to become part of the second resurrection, rather than the first. Though I believe the Book of Life is not closed to more names being written in it until after the second resurrection and judgment day, the first resurrection still far surpasses the second.
 - There's really only one Bible verse, that I know of that perhaps sounds like "it's all over once a person dies" no chance for repentance after that, and this is Jesus telling the Pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins. Most assume this to mean, die in your sins/all over. But perhaps it means instead one forfeits experiencing the first resurrection.
 - As to losing my part in the Holy City, uh oh. That sounds to me like I still have the potential to really mess up bad (super, super stubbornly) and find myself locked outside all the good things to come in God's ultimate reality/blueprint He has planned and worked out.
 - Now, just because I have the potential to do this, it doesn't mean I will! And, it doesn't mean anyone will! I don't want to sound crazy (to some) but this verse, to me, sounds like a threat from a loving parent in the sternest tone possible to warn their child away from a very destructive path. That's not to say the threat is still not a possibility and potential! [That's the thing.. that's why this whole good from evil thing (life from death) - learning it, that is, will be so very very deeeply etched upon every heart.]

[WhiteWings]

There's really only one Bible verse, that I know of that perhaps sounds like "it's all over once a person dies" no chance for repentance after that, and this is Jesus telling the Pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins. Most assume this to mean, die in your sins/all over.

You mean this verse MG?
^YLTHeb 9
27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

^YLTLuke 12
48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.

There are gradations in punishment.
And that's  not:  You go in hell for eternity and you where really evil so you get 5x eternity.

^YLTPs 30
5 For--a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

^YLTMatt 12
20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,

[legoman]

Do you mean the best laid schemes of God and men / Go oft awry?

These are good points Molly (& others).

Calvinism does have some things right (relating to the sovereignty of God), but unfortunately goes terribly wrong and comes to the horrific conclusion that God created people specifically to be tormented forever, and this is what God wants.


However they got the sovereignty of God right.  IMHO this is often at the root of disbelief in universalism.  We can't seem to quite come to grips with the fact that God really is in complete control of our salvation.  We cannot boast in our salvation - that is because it is ALL of God.

It is God who draws us to Him (John 6:44, John 6:65).
It is God who gives us faith (Eph 2:8, Rom 12:3).
It is God who grants us belief (Phil 1:29).
It is God who leads us to repent (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25).

Therefore: Salvation is a complete work of God.  If we did any part of our salvation ourself then we could boast about it.  But scripture is clear we cannot boast about our salvation.

This is not to say that we ourselves do not need to believe, repent, have faith, etc.  No, nothing is further from the truth.  We do need to do those things!  But it is God who prompts, draws, grants, leads and in fact causes us to do those things.  If God did not prompt us to do these things, then we would not do them.  That is why none can boast.  It is all of God.

So if God is in complete control of salvation through Him leading us, and God also wants all men to be saved, then we can have complete assurance that all will be saved!  That is the best assurance ever.  Not assurance in our own faith or works to do the right thing, but assurance in the almighty creator of the universe to save all just as He said He will.

If you can get your head around this concept of God's sovereignty, then issues like the Book of Life take on a different meaning.  We may not understand completely how/if names are added/removed from the Book of Life - but we do know that God is in control of salvation and He wants all to be saved - therefore it will be done.

GOOD NEWS!

[eaglesway]

 


Revelation 20:4,5,6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image __ neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
 
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished This is the first resurrection

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years

The overcomers will remain in the book of life, they will not have to pass through the fire. They have passed from death into life and they are washed in the blood of the Lamb because they have continually brought their sins to the light and strove to walk in love. They "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their life unto death".

Revelation 3:4,5 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy
 
He that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white raiment and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels

We are like Sardis, their are few who are chosen to walk with Him in white. Most of us are recieving our reward in this life as we save our own lives and seek the glory of men and enjoy the life of this age- our works are nor perfect(mature/complete)
 

Revelation 3:4 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy

There are overcomers in the midst of the "living dead/zombies/sleepwalkers". They are encouraged only to "hold out till He comes". The Lord knows those who are His. They are not identified doctrinally, but by the secrets of their hearts.
 

John 15:4-6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Abide in me and I in you As the branch cannot __ bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine no more ">__ can ye except ye abide in me
 
I am the vine ye are the branches He that abideth in me and I in him the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing __
 
 If a man abide not in me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned

If we return to "abiding", drawing on the life of the vine, bearing fruit of eternity, we are blessed. If we dry up through self life and law and the pursuit of head knowledge we are going to be saved, but as through the fire

Those who abide"enduring to the end".... "faithful unto the death"...."walking in the light" (not asleep in the dark) will not have to pass through the fire. They will pass "go"- having passed from death into life and overcoming the sleep of death, they will rejoice at His appearing- and are rejoicing at His appearing daily.
 
 

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon he shall receive a reward
 
If any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet ">so as by fire


The fire is the discernment/exposure of the "eyes of Him with whom we have to do" before whom "all things are laid bare". The One whose eyes are as a flame of fire. For evrything that is hidden in secret will be brought to light by "the day"- so walk in the light.

Revelation 3:2,3 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die for I have not found thy works perfect before GodRemember therefore how thou hast received and heard and hold fast and repent If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come on thee as a thief and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee

The thief comes to those who sleep, therefore "Awake O Sleeper and arise from the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you". Those who sleep are alive, but living like the dead, unaware of the purpose of God and not walking in His ways.
 

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief
 
Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness

 Therefore __ let us not sleep as __ do others but let us watch and be sober

If we do not watch we will fall asleep and the trumpet will find us sleeping with no oil in our vessels, we will not "make it out" to the wedding supper(fellowship/celebration of the union of the Bride and the Lamb- always happening in the day, see Hebrews....you have come unto Zion and unto the heavenly Jerusalem.... Rev   Coming down out of the heavens prepared as a Bride) Where is she coming down? IN THE DAY among all those who are walking in the light, continuing in the word and the Spirit and the love of God
 
 

1 John 1:7 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another __ and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

Abide in the vine, continue in the word and in the fellowship of the saints, loving one another and shining as lights in a dark world. As the blood cleanses because we are transparent with one another(true fellowship/koinonea) we are assured that we will "awaken" to the unreserved "well done" of the Master. As James said, "For we all stumble in many ways"..... and "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed". Abiding is not legal perfection, it is a state of "pressing in to know the Lord" and growing in grace and love. Thes are the "perfect works"- and only those who "come clean" in fellowship get the victory over the imperfect works  of the flesh- and only those who stay clean through "walking in the light" in koinonea and love can stay there.

" For I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have comitted to Him against that day"

"He that has begun a good work in you is faithful and will complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus"

"For I have loved you with an everlasting love, and I have called you from the foundation of the world to be my sons and daughters, a priesthood, holy and precious unto God"   

Ephesians 2:5-7 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Even when we were dead in sins hath quickened us together with Christ by grace ye are saved
 
And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
 
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus

 
 

 
As I see it (in part)   All those whos names are written in the Lamb's book of life will not be hurt of the second death(free pass- no fire, because it cannot light on them, because they stayed humble and blood washed because of their trasnsparency) - they will receive the ressurection of reward. Those whos name are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life are those whose works were imperfect and they lose that reward(be zealous therefore and repent). It is reserved for those in whom it was fulfilled through whatever secret love and service and transparency they yielded unto God in their lives.
 

[Beth]

I believe the second death is the death of the soul... Jesus said those who lose their soul for His sake find it... the death of the soul is when we (as Jesus did) pour out our soul unto death (exchange our will for His will).  The second death does not *hurt* us because we DESIRE to exchange our will for His will.

[jabcat]

Thanks for being a good "guest".     The door's always open, brother.

[eaglesway]

I believe the second death is the death of the soul... Jesus said those who lose their soul for His sake find it... the death of the soul is when we (as Jesus did) pour out our soul unto death (exchange our will for His will).  The second death does not *hurt* us because we DESIRE to exchange our will for His will.

yea, thats beautifull, I agree. That's what the overcomers are overcoming....yet, I also see that this occurs as we "yield our bodies as a living sacrifice"... and "love the Lord with our whole heart" and... "are transformed by the renewing of our minds".


For those who receive the second death in life perservering through fiery sanctification (buy of me gold tried in the fire). which is the yielding process, there is no more kolassis. "all discipline is for the moment unpleasant but in the end yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness". "So, let know, let us press on to know the Lord"

 The receiving of truth in the inner man and the alignment of the spirit, soul and body centered within a whole hearted devotion is the "destruction" of the old man....and the rising up of the new creation. "Behold, I am making all things new".

[Molly]

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

--Rev 20



This describes the resurrection which occurs after the millennium.  One thing I'm wondering about is why the book of life is still an issue after the 1000 year rule by Christ and his saints.  But, of course, before this resurrection,  Satan has been loosed again and it seems like he's managed to deceive all the nations again.

  8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

--Rev 20

That would imply that most of these people do not have the indwelling spirit even after living in a world ruled by Christ.  I realize I am trying to read something literally that is not necessarily meant to be literal, but I need to make some kind of literal sense out of it.

If the book of life is just the elect who will rule with Christ in the millennium, then why is it an issue at the 'second' resurrection?

Unless all are meant to be in the BoL eventually?

I just don't understand why the tangible rule of Christ and his saints doesn't seem to change anything.  The nations are still deceived within ten seconds of satan being released...like they haven't learned a thing..

[eaglesway]

There is nothing that limits the book of life to one resurrection or the other from what I can see. I think the few things written of it show application to both resurrections. I am not sure that enough information is given to make strong assertions about it...... we see through a glass darkly there, or at least, I do 

[thinktank]

It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem, which means that if the great white throne happens on the earth it means that the dead who appeared before this judgment seat do not have to be spirit bodies, but can indeed be flesh and blood bodies. This means that whosoever is not found in the book of life were thrown into the fire. Perhaps this fire is a bit like living life such as Cain, who are given a mark and are vagbond upon the earth, they are tormented in the presence of the lamb and holy angels, because the life they use to live on a earth full of devils etc where their sins are hidden, but now in the new earth they are cast out into outer darkness, where there is gnashing of teeth, and their sins are no longer hidden and therefore are tormented in an earth, where the lamb rules and the holy angels

Perhaps the torment is also a life of living in the wilderness, where the tree of life etc is not available, those that lie etc are not allowed into the heavenly city.

[WhiteWings]

It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem,

Maybe it's aready there...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_decending_dove_his_baptism_is_new_jerusalem_9156.msg113669.html#msg113669

[eaglesway]

Perhaps the great white throne is outside of time, at the entrance to THE DAY, into which evryone awakens after their "life lived in the body". And perhaps it is always being played out in the conscience of man, that innermost place where time and eternity connect. I think the parallels in these things present many possibilities, none of which necessarily preclude the others. However, for all those who overcome, whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life, and have received the morning star, the crown of life, the key of David and the designation "pillar"- over such as these the second death has no power. Worth pressing into no matter how one sees it relating to the administration of the fulness of times. To some extent we are all always standing before the Great White Throne.

[thinktank]

It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem,

Maybe it's aready there...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_decending_dove_his_baptism_is_new_jerusalem_9156.msg113669.html#msg113669

Perhaps the throne is, but it needs a high priest. If white throne on earth, then perhaps during millenium 1000 years, that the priesthood will establish everything that is needed for the greatwhitethrone at the end. As Jesus said "know ye not ye shall judge angels". So perhaps we or the disciples will also be judging at the greatwhite throne room. Maybe that is why we are kings and priests of God for a thousand years, we are being Gods physical presence on the earth. He may return to earth at the battle of armageddon, but he may not stay on the earth but go back to heaven and give his saints rule over the earth in the millenium peace, until the time comes for, restitution of all things, new heavens and earth etc.

[onlytruth]

Just a side note; as soon as we feel we have to "hold up our end of the bargain" .I think we have a tendency of expecting the same in others.this can lead to judging one another and I know we don't want to do that do we ?

[thinktank]

I say "we" are kings by faith, there is no guarantee that I will be among the saved and I might be among the ones being judged at the throne room, but by faith , that he will complete the work in me and in those that have called upon his name, or those who he chose, whatever your persepctive is.

 

[Molly]

Just a side note; as soon as we feel we have to "hold up our end of the bargain" .I think we have a tendency of expecting the same in others.this can lead to judging one another and I know we don't want to do that do we ?

I know what you mean.

Although often I wonder...

why can't everyone be/ perfect in every way like me?

[j/k...]

[CHB]

Molly, I heard someone they "didn't want to be perfect because there has never been but one man perfect and they killed him". 

CHB

[Molly]

Molly, I heard someone they "didn't want to be perfect because there has never been but one man perfect and they killed him". 

CHB

LOL!!

Good point, CHB.