Author Topic: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life  (Read 30251 times)

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Offline legoman

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #200 on: February 13, 2011, 06:32:34 AM »
Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book.

Why do you say aborted babies are in the BoL?  If that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved through abortions every year.  But of course that runs contrary to the reality of the "pro-life vs. pro-choice" debate.  The unsaid message here is its better that babies live and possibly end up going to hell than be aborted... does that really make sense?  Ironically under this system "pro-life" really means "pro-choice": babies deserve to live so they can "choose" heaven/hell instead of being aborted and automatically going to heaven.  Of course this whole notion is horrible and borders on the absurd.  Abortion is a difficult/hotbed issue and I don't want to get into that here.  Anyways this point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions if you think about it (ie. Andrew Yates, abortions save millions, etc).

Regardless, if we consider the UR perspective... why would babies be automatically in the BoL?  Who are those in the BoL?  If they are the elect - then they are the ones who are destined to reign with Christ: kings, priests, judges, and ministers.  What is the necessary trait for these positions as kings, priests, judges, and ministers?  MATURITY.  To be more specific: spiritual maturity.

We start as babes in Christ with the milk of the word and then go onto more mature matters: the meat of the word.  We are all expected to mature.
So what would an immature baby - with no spiritual knowledge - do in the Kingdom?  Babies judging matters?  Babies ministering?  Now I'm not saying some kids can't make some good judgments.  But babies?  There are some basic things that everyone has to learn.  I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven.  They will have to grow and mature somehow.

Everyone will be salted with fire.  Everyone will be judged.  Everyone will be brought to a full knowledge of the truth - full maturity.  IMHO this is what the lake of fire is about.  And yes, even babies who die will have to still grow and mature (spiritually at least) - and endure trials of fire just as we all do - because that is how we mature.

Now I'm not saying that the babies 'new name' is not in the BoL.  But I can't see them coming into the Kingdom without some maturation process.  The new name is associated with the new mature creation. There is this stigma that the lake of fire is 'bad' and babies would never go into it.  But that is a carnal view.  (The lake of fire is not a physical fire/torture chamber).  But if the lake of fire is the divine testing/purification (ie. refinement) process - then it makes sense to me that babies would need to go through it.  If babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.

I hope that made sense.  I'm not saying this is all 100% correct.  These are just some thoughts I have on the matter.  Its not as straight forward to just say all babies are in the BoL.

Offline legoman

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #201 on: February 13, 2011, 06:48:17 AM »
I just reread my previous post and realize it probably is not going to make sense to some people.

Perhaps this will help explain my perspective.  IMHO:

1. Not everyone enters the Kingdom reign
2. Those in the Kingdom reign are the Kings, Judges, Priests, and Ministers spoken of
3. They will be positions of authority and responsibility - and LOVE
4. They are represented (symbolically) by those in the book of life - who are not blotted out - who are not thrown into the Lake of Fire.
5. Who will they be judging, ministering, and preaching to?  Everyone else.
6. Even though some do not reign with Christ in His Kingdom - they are still saved.
7. That is the point of His Kingdom.
8. This could be all symbolized by the lake of fire.

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #202 on: February 13, 2011, 07:13:55 AM »
Quote from: Legoman
If they are the elect - then they are the ones who are destined to reign with Christ: kings, priests, judges, and ministers.  What is the necessary trait for these positions as kings, priests, judges, and ministers?  MATURITY.  To be more specific: spiritual maturity.

 :thumbsup:



So that this prophecy might be fullfilled..

Isaiah 9:6
... and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

--Isa 9

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #203 on: February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.

A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #204 on: February 13, 2011, 11:58:18 AM »
Legoman

Quote
Old nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ

The old nature is not saved.  It is destroyed.  It is replaced with the new nature.

Works for me, and I have no problem with God using a name change as a sign marker that the old nature has passed away and a person is a new creature in Christ.
Naturally, this is just as an object lesson for us and we are not all called to take on a new name here when we get saved. 

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Perhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out.

I don't think that works.

Because the Scriptures involving the Book of Life indicate that SOME will be blotted out and SOME will not be blotted out.
Since ALL start out with a carnal nature and IF the carnal nature is what is blotted out then it would have to indicate that ALL will be blotted out.

Quote
I don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink.  It is most likely representing Christ Himself.

I don't see why it cant be both, a literal Book of all that are to be born on Earth and once the blotting is complete a representation of all that are in Christ.
Just like in sports, one can be on the team after the final cut and also on the team roster at the same time.

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Why do you say aborted babies are in the BoL?

Because it makes more sense to me than saying babies are NOT in the Book of Life.

Quote
If that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved

Murdering the innocent is still a sin, regardless of the destination of the victim.  Wrong to rejoice over sin.

Quote
this point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions

As opposed to babies are automatically lost?

Quote
why would babies be automatically in the BoL?

Because Life begins at conception. When Life begins, it is recorded in the Book of Life.  In a way, you could look at the Book of Life as the Book of Life's conception. When you are given life, you are recorded in the Book of Life as being given Life. In a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.

Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.

When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.

Quote
There are some basic things that everyone has to learn.  I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven.  They will have to grow and mature somehow.

I'm sure God can manage with some baby trainer angels.

Quote
If babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.

Death does a pretty good job of leaving the carnal husk behind.






Offline legoman

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #205 on: February 13, 2011, 02:10:05 PM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.

Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.

Carry on...

Quote

It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.

A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #206 on: February 13, 2011, 02:23:28 PM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.

Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.
Unless you have a perfect understanding of a certain thing you can't make any claims about. Sometimes suddenly someone posts a verse in a totally unrelated thread and it seems to be a key for a thread that died long ago.
Why a white stone? Why not purple or black? Why a stone instead of a book or golden ring?
All relevant questions I think. Things are often unlocked by (hidden) details.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #207 on: February 13, 2011, 02:46:24 PM »
Man you guys are up late!  European time zone or night owl?  (whitewings is in Europe AFAIK...)

Legoman

Quote
Old nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ

The old nature is not saved.  It is destroyed.  It is replaced with the new nature.

Works for me, and I have no problem with God using a name change as a sign marker that the old nature has passed away and a person is a new creature in Christ.
Naturally, this is just as an object lesson for us and we are not all called to take on a new name here when we get saved. 

Quote
Perhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out.

I don't think that works.

Because the Scriptures involving the Book of Life indicate that SOME will be blotted out and SOME will not be blotted out.
Since ALL start out with a carnal nature and IF the carnal nature is what is blotted out then it would have to indicate that ALL will be blotted out.

I think it can work if we understand that much of scripture is speaking of one of our two natures.  Perhaps we should post all the scripture that speaks of "blotting out of the book".  But for instance:

Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Ok this is fine until you realize we are all sinners and have all sinned against God.  So we will all be blotted out of His book?  (assuming this is even talking about the BoL).  :dontknow:

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Quote
I don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink.  It is most likely representing Christ Himself.

I don't see why it cant be both, a literal Book of all that are to be born on Earth and once the blotting is complete a representation of all that are in Christ.
Just like in sports, one can be on the team after the final cut and also on the team roster at the same time.

That may be possible.

Quote
Quote
Why do you say aborted babies are in the BoL?

Because it makes more sense to me than saying babies are NOT in the Book of Life.

Quote
If that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved

Murdering the innocent is still a sin, regardless of the destination of the victim.  Wrong to rejoice over sin.

Quote
this point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions

As opposed to babies are automatically lost?

But you are equating "into the lake of fire" with "automatically lost".  We all start off lost, agreed?  Even babies.  No one is righteous.  Jesus came to save the lost.  All are lost.  Maybe you don't agree here.

If babies are automatically saved, but can go to eternal hell later, then the obvious conclusion is that killing babies is good even though murder is wrong.  This is a giant contradiction.  The angels rejoice over one soul saved -> so they are rejoicing over all the babies being aborted?  :dontknow:

From the eternal torment perspective it makes no sense that babies would go into the LoF, because no one (well almost no one) thinks babies deserve to be eternally punished.

But we are on a UR forum (I realize you probably don't believe in UR).  Lets look at it from that context.  The LoF is not for endless torture and torment.  The LoF is for refinement and spiritual growth into maturity.  They are thrown into the LoF in the presence of the lamb.  Then it makes perfect sense that babies would go into it.

Quote
Quote
why would babies be automatically in the BoL?

Because Life begins at conception. When Life begins, it is recorded in the Book of Life.  In a way, you could look at the Book of Life as the Book of Life's conception. When you are given life, you are recorded in the Book of Life as being given Life. In a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.

Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.

When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.

For me it is not as simple because 'life' has many meanings in scripture.  Physically alive, spiritually alive, eonian life, knowing God.  None are righteous, not even babies.

God has chosen the elect from before the foundation of the world - why the need to add everyone to the BoL and then blot people out, since God already knows the end from the beginning?  Its not like God had to wait and see who would stay in the BoL.  God already knew because He chose. IMHO it is possible the BoL verses referring to blotting out may be symbolic - explaining things from our human perspective in time.  But in reality they were already blotted out from the beginning.  But this is just an interpretation from the view that God is outside of time and already knows who is in the BoL and who is in the LoF.  Just some ideas I have considered, I'm not really 100% sure here.  This is why we discuss.  :thumbsup:

Quote
Quote
There are some basic things that everyone has to learn.  I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven.  They will have to grow and mature somehow.

I'm sure God can manage with some baby trainer angels.

Agreed. 
Quote
Quote
If babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.

Death does a pretty good job of leaving the carnal husk behind.

Agreed.

Its just a question of how that training is described.  "baby trainer angels" or lake of fire.  Possibly the same thing in my books.

Its not just babies that will have to undergo training on the other side.  Most of humanity will - those in the LoF.

Offline legoman

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #208 on: February 13, 2011, 02:48:49 PM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.

Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.
Unless you have a perfect understanding of a certain thing you can't make any claims about. Sometimes suddenly someone posts a verse in a totally unrelated thread and it seems to be a key for a thread that died long ago.
Why a white stone? Why not purple or black? Why a stone instead of a book or golden ring?
All relevant questions I think. Things are often unlocked by (hidden) details.

WW - I think something was lost in the translation there.  Yes it is very relevant for full understanding. But not the point at hand.

I get what you are saying.  Nevermind...

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #209 on: February 13, 2011, 05:31:17 PM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.

A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"


oh my goodness. :mshock:

I've always wondered where the high priest Caiaphas got that information, especially since he didn't seem to understand what it meant himself.


47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

 48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

 49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 53Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

--John 11



The white stone then, makes perfect sense, as Jesus is our high priest.  Isn't the day of atonement coincident with the feast of tabernacles? 

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

unto them that look for him--those in the BoL waiting for their High Priest Jesus to come out of the holy of Holies on the day of atonement.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 05:54:26 PM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #210 on: February 13, 2011, 09:11:19 PM »
I agree lego, we're born lost, with the Adamic nature.  I believe that's scriptural, and that there's no gospel of innocence in the scriptures, no "age of accountability".  I believe that's an orthodox invention.  Scripturally, all must come through the Messiah. 

I personally doubt anyone has an absolutely complete understanding of the Book of Life, as it appears every possible detail isn't filled in for us in the scriptures.  There's MUCH MORE to God's PLAN, more than we often see.  He's given us many strong promises of the eventual salvation of all when God's righteousness and glory fills the earth.  I think it's very possible we don't have each and every detail, but I believe the "bones"/outline is there to be known, and the final outcome revealed, when we're given ears to hear and eyes to see.  Personally, I'm just now seeing some of it myself, and I know there's still MUCH that needs revealed to me.     

This is just SOME of the OT.  NT to come.   :bigGrin: 

GENESIS

12:1-3 All the families on earth will be blessed..

18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed

28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed


NUMBERS

16:22 the God of the spirits of all flesh

I KINGS

8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.

PSALMS

46:10 I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world."
65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.
86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.
138:4 O  Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.


ISAIAH

11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.

52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
65:1  I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.
66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

LAMENTATIONS

3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

NLT- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever.  Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.

DANIEL

7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
7:27 ..the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."

MICAH

4:1-5 ..he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths."
For the LORD's teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
3The LORD will mediate between peoples
and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.
4Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
for there will be nothing to fear.

HABAKKUK

2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea

HAGGAI

2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

In the NT, there's about 30 scrips I hope to list in the next day or 2.  Only part of it is NO MORE CRYING, PAIN, DEATH, TEARS, which IMO = NO ETERNAL TORTURE OR SEPARATION FROM GOD.  The outline, outcome, and promises are there.  I/we may not know every detail or answer to every possible question, but IMO, those things cannot co-exist.    :2c:

« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 06:34:15 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #211 on: February 13, 2011, 10:47:50 PM »
 For Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does not waver between "Yes" and "No." He is the one whom Silas, Timothy, and I preached to you, and as God's ultimate "Yes," he always does what he says.  For all of God's promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding "Yes!" And through Christ, our "Amen" (which means "Yes") ascends to God for his glory.

It is God who enables us, along with you, to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us,  and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.    II Cor. 1:19-21
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #212 on: February 14, 2011, 07:25:34 AM »
 :2c:

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. .....
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15)

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
(Rom 2:5-8)

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:12-16)

"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Mat 25:40-46)

In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives. The judgment of God is the dividing of God....measuring our lives.... with the measure you give so will you be measured, thats why love covers a multitude of sins

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

His eyes are as flames of fire, the fire that penetrates the soul and heart of man and consumes every adversary to love, for our God is a consuming fire, and our God is love.

Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.

Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)

Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.

"THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED."
(Mat 4:16)

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:1-6)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
(Joh 3:16-21)

The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.



The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #213 on: February 14, 2011, 07:28:30 AM »
and that there's no gospel of innocence in the scriptures, no "age of accountability".  I believe that's an orthodox invention.
It would mean an abortion clinic has a higher success rate than Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #214 on: February 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM »
WW, it really is something all the things many of us (especially those of us who've been "in church" all our life) take as being "facts", and continue building our doctrines on them.  Done it many times, still do.   :mblush:   Much to re-think.


:2c:
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives. The judgment of God is the dividing of God....measuring our lives.... with the measure you give so will you be measured, thats why love covers a multitude of sins

That's something to think about, WW.



Interesting take on it.



Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.

Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)

Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.

The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Yes, amen!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 08:39:36 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lefein

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #215 on: February 14, 2011, 08:46:39 AM »
Quote
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.

Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)

Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.

The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

This feels right.  Like a satisfying meal sort of right, a good kind of right.

Hmmn.  It brings to mind and idea that the Book of Life is a little bit like a record of those who have graduated (overcome), while the rest have yet to pass the tests necessary to move to their higher career as people of God in God's kingdom.

It would seem to me that it is important for God's creation to overcome evil, and be immune to it - by having his righteousness forged in them, so that evil, death, sin, separation from him, and otherwise bad stuff should never be able to return. 

"Once you go through chicken pox, you never deal get it again."
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #216 on: February 14, 2011, 09:31:21 AM »
HansC said

Quote
In a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.
Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.

When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.

Actually Hans, it doesn't make that much sense, since no one else pointed it out, I thought I would.

If ALL the names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world and then there is only blotting, you cant have names entered at conception because that would entail an ongoing process of adding in as babies are conceived over time.

I thought you said that the Bible teaches that no names are entered after the foundation of the world.

You cant have it both ways. Think about it.



Ok, you have a point, the Bible does teach that names are in there prior to conception, and actually prior to the foundation of the Earth.
So when it was written, before the foundation of the Earth, it contained ALL the names of ALL the people who were ever to be born into the World.

Those who receive Christ remain in the Book and those who reject Christ eventually are blotted out.   

Offline Hansc

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #217 on: February 14, 2011, 09:43:25 AM »
Legoman said

Quote
God has chosen the elect from before the foundation of the world - .

Sounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong. 

Quote
why the need to add everyone to the BoL and then blot people out, since God already knows the end from the beginning? 

Right, there is absolutely no need to add anyone to the Book, since all start off in the Book. 


Quote
Its not like God had to wait and see who would stay in the BoL

True, He knows the choices that people will make before they make them, but He couldn't just jump to the consequences of their choices, just because He knew what they would be without actually allowing them to make the choice.

He knows what actions people will take, but still needs to give people the space to actually take the action, before He can judge the action. 

Offline shawn

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #218 on: February 14, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
Quote
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.

Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)

Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.

The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

This feels right.  Like a satisfying meal sort of right, a good kind of right.

Hmmn.  It brings to mind and idea that the Book of Life is a little bit like a record of those who have graduated (overcome), while the rest have yet to pass the tests necessary to move to their higher career as people of God in God's kingdom.

It would seem to me that it is important for God's creation to overcome evil, and be immune to it - by having his righteousness forged in them, so that evil, death, sin, separation from him, and otherwise bad stuff should never be able to return. 

"Once you go through chicken pox, you never deal get it again."

I think we are called to righteousness yet have no ability within ourselves to be righteous.  Interesting.  Righteousness is an effect not an act.  Once a zygote is implanted into it's mother's womb it either grows or dies.  It's growth is an effect of a process.  In the same way, we are implanted into the Kingdom by no choice of our own.  We are fed and we grow.  We are seen as righteous as we grow in righteousness.  With relationship comes love and maturity which leads to life and growth.  We overcome evil as a process of maturity through relationship.  Seek relationship with Christ and righteousness will be the result.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #219 on: February 14, 2011, 10:18:53 AM »
Sounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong. 
I'm not defending the Calvinist doctrine because like you I believe they are wrong; but there is an elect in the Bible. But that elect isn't about eternal heaven or hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #220 on: February 14, 2011, 02:43:04 PM »
Quote from: Hanc
Sounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong. 

Calvin says only the elect will choose Jesus, thus only the elect are saved.  You say only those who choose Jesus in this life are saved [ who must also fit the definition of elect].  What's the difference?    Both you and Calvin condemn  most of humanity to an eternity of fire and pain.  Thus, you have more in common than not.  Whether man picks God or God picks man, most men will be either annihilated or tortured for eternity.  It seems to me that both you and Calvin would have the same people being saved but for different reasons.

You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.

Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong.  Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything?  Does he know the heart of God?

http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man's heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man's true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God's will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for 'many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man's will, but by God's.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus' return.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 02:51:06 PM by Molly »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #221 on: February 14, 2011, 02:53:45 PM »
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.

A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"


oh my goodness. :mshock:

I've always wondered where the high priest Caiaphas got that information, especially since he didn't seem to understand what it meant himself.


47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

 48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

 49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 53Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

--John 11



The white stone then, makes perfect sense, as Jesus is our high priest.  Isn't the day of atonement coincident with the feast of tabernacles? 

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

unto them that look for him--those in the BoL waiting for their High Priest Jesus to come out of the holy of Holies on the day of atonement.

Ah this is the scripture that I was refering to that shows that not all the pharisses are evil or are hard hearted, far from God. There is also another scripture in the book of acts where the high priest I think prophecies over Paul after his Damascus conversion.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #222 on: February 14, 2011, 04:19:33 PM »
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.

Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind

That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"

So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #223 on: February 14, 2011, 04:36:29 PM »
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.

Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind

That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"

So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.

As someone said, [maybe you lol]

Revelation 13:8
... the book of life of the Lamb...


Here's a question.  Jesus when talking to the Pharisees gives a list of those righteous who were slain without cause by the predecessors of the Pharisees.

He starts with 'the righteous Abel"  and comes up to the present day.  Then he says to the Pharisees, this [innocent] blood will be on your hands.  Are these the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?  [I would include Adam in that list myself.  Jesus does later by saying he is the Alpha, the beginning.]  Just as those who are identified with Christ in these times are innocents led to the slaughter all day long?


34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

--Mat 23
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 04:39:53 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life
« Reply #224 on: February 14, 2011, 07:58:22 PM »
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.

Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind

That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"

So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.

As someone said, [maybe you lol]
I did. But now I say the other books are you, me, everyone.

Quote
Revelation 13:8
... the book of life of the Lamb...
And the book of Molly
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...