Revelation 22:18,19 Taken Out of the Book of Life

[legoman]

But that is Paul speaking.

I guess the question is: why two names?  Why Saul & then Paul?  Which name is written in the Book of Life?  Both Saul & Paul?  Or just Paul?

Oh, I see what you're saying--I think.  You're saying Paul was written in the BoL before he was born, not Saul.

He's talking here about 'God reveal[ing] his son in me.' 

Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus.  Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant.  It's the Son who's revealed that's important.

I see what you are saying, but I don't think the meaning is that Jesus is written in the BoL.  Jesus is the walking talking BoL.  So then names are "written" in Jesus.  The name Saul or Paul is relevant in trying to understand the details.  How would this all fit with Revelations?:

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Would this mean that Saul was thrown in the lake of fire, and Saul will never enter the city, but Paul was not thrown in the lake of fire, and Paul will enter the city?  (keeping in mind that Saul & Paul are the same person - but two different natures - also keeping in mind that Revelations is highly symbolic)

[Molly]

ww,  I understand the different trees.

But, he was nailed to a living tree?  Where do you get that?

Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011

http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html

    Acts 5:30      "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 10:39     "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 13:29     "they took him down from the tree"
    1 Peter 2:24   "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
    Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"



BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.

That's really interesting.  I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.

wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.

[legoman]

Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus.  Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant.  It's the Son who's revealed that's important.

15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth],  but not revealed....

"reveal"

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.


This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.

Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.

The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?

Did I get it?

[Molly]

Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus.  Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant.  It's the Son who's revealed that's important.

15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth],  but not revealed....

"reveal"

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.


This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.

Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.

The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?

Did I get it?

Well, that's what I was saying.  I'm not saying I'm right lol.

But, couldn't this be what it means to get to the Father through Jesus?

I guess you could take it even further--through that nature of the man, Jesus?

You notice that many of the OT saints [going way back] have el attached to their names? el means God.

[legoman]

Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus.  Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant.  It's the Son who's revealed that's important.

15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth],  but not revealed....

"reveal"

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.


This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.

Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.

The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?

Did I get it?

Well, that's what I was saying.  I'm not saying I'm right lol.

But, couldn't this be what it means to get to the Father through Jesus?

I guess you could take it even further--through that nature of the man, Jesus?

You notice that many of the OT saints [going way back] have el attached to their names? el means God.

It makes some sense to me.  I'm not saying I'm right either LOL!

Question: when is the lake of fire?  Is it right now?  (IYHO)

[Molly]

Question: when is the lake of fire?  Is it right now?  (IYHO)

King James Version

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

--Gal 1


For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

--1 Peter 4:7


We've already died, Legoman, [with Christ].  How's your life going since the revelation of Jesus Christ?  Lots of fire?


All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Mat 10:22

[WhiteWings]

That's really interesting.  I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.

wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.

The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?

It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.

[legoman]

Question: when is the lake of fire?  Is it right now?  (IYHO)

King James Version

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

--Gal 1


For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

--1 Peter 4:7


We've already died, Legoman, [with Christ].  How's your life going since the revelation of Jesus Christ?  Lots of fire?


All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Mat 10:22

Thanks Molly, that helped a lot.   

Yes... lots of fire... 

[WhiteWings]

Question: when is the lake of fire?  Is it right now?  (IYHO)

Then we are judged goats.

[Molly]

That's really interesting.  I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.

wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.

The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?

It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.

There are two trees in the midst of Eden, but only one tree in the Holy City, the tree of life --Rev 22:2.

What does that mean?  What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?

 
International Standard Version (©2008)
Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Between the street of the city and the river there was a tree of life visible from both sides. It produced 12 kinds of fruit. Each month had its own fruit. The leaves of the tree will heal the nations.
--Rev 22:2
 
 

[WhiteWings]

What does that mean?  What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?

For Jews it's very certain it was the fig tree. IIRC Rabbis were even scared of fig tree's scare to be tempted.
They had a building for priests that was called house of unripe figs.
Their writing also teach every tree in Eden withered away but not the fig tree because:
^YLTGen 3
7 and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they are naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.

What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?

It means no one can eat from teh tree of death. So nobody will die.

^YLTMark 11
14 and Jesus answering said to it, `No more from thee--to the age--may any eat fruit;' and his disciples were hearing.


I'm very sure "12 kinds" is a very important part of the verse.

[redhotmagma]

What is IIRC?

[WhiteWings]

What is IIRC?

If I Recall Correctly

[Hansc]

Legoman

It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.

That's speculation and not at all as safe of a bet as some may think.

Here's why:

What about unborn and unnamed babies?  What 'name' do they go by?

What about women who take on their husbands name? What name do they go by?

Will you keep the name you have now for ALL eternity?

Will the name on the 'white rock', the name God gives you supersede the one you have on this side?

For me, it works better if the private name God gives you, the name that Jesus reveals to you when He gives you the white rock is the one that matches up with the name in the Book of Life. 

[Hansc]

White wings

Jesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.

Why not on dead wood, for a dead and dying world?

Putting three people on one olive tree would make it a LOT tougher for the Romans. The Romans were not into making it tough on them, they were into making it tough on you.   

Are there passages that put Calvary on the Mount of Olives?

Using living trees for crucifixion was not the normal Roman practice. In the Roman-Jewish wars when the Romans crucified thousands of prisoners much of the landscape around the city was stripped of trees due to the need for usable wood for crucifixion.       

[legoman]

Legoman

It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.

That's speculation and not at all as safe of a bet as some may think.

Here's why:

What about unborn and unnamed babies?  What 'name' do they go by?

What about women who take on their husbands name? What name do they go by?

Will you keep the name you have now for ALL eternity?

Will the name on the 'white rock', the name God gives you supersede the one you have on this side?

For me, it works better if the private name God gives you, the name that Jesus reveals to you when He gives you the white rock is the one that matches up with the name in the Book of Life.

And you are not speculating here?  That is why we discuss.
I'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet.  Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'?  Or simply that he will be given another new name?

Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name and the new name they will be given, so that is not a problem.

I don't disagree that the name given on the white rock could be the same name as in the book of life.  Certainly it is likely that the BoL name is the new name that is given - referring to the new creation.

Why do you think Saul/Paul has two names?

[CHB]

ww,  I understand the different trees.

But, he was nailed to a living tree?  Where do you get that?

Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011

http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html

    Acts 5:30      "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 10:39     "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 13:29     "they took him down from the tree"
    1 Peter 2:24   "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
    Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"



BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.

That's really interesting.  I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.

wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.

Hey Molly,

I like what you said here about Christ being nailed to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Never thought of that before.

Wow!! you guys are bringing up some really good points to consider.  Wish I had more time to post. I am sorry if I missed answering any ones post. 

CHB

[Hansc]

Legoman

I'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet.  Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'?  Or simply that he will be given another new name?

Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name

Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book. So perhaps the name that God gives us in the Book may not even be what we call each other here.

Certainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.

They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.

The point is that God gives us a new name different than our earthly name on the white stone which we will be known by throughout eternal LIFE.
I think the name we have throughout eternal LIFE, the one on the white stone, is the same name that we are known by in the Lamb's Book of  LIFE

The Lamb gives you your new name on a white stone.
The Lamb has His Book of Life with your name in it.

I think the Name the Lamb has for you in the Book.
is the same name the Lamb gives you from the Book.

This is NOT the same name as you are known by here on Earth. 

So a person may well have a public name in heaven known to all
and a private name just between him and the lamb.

But, we understand that  at this point this is mere speculation.


 

[WhiteWings]

White wings

Jesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.

Why not on dead wood, for a dead and dying world?

Putting three people on one olive tree would make it a LOT tougher for the Romans. The Romans were not into making it tough on them, they were into making it tough on you.

Not really. Jesus was carrying a crossbeam. That a planck of dead wood. The victim was nailed to that piece of wood and then that wood was lifted up in the tree (and nailed to tree)

The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man's name on it, 'Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol'.[37][38] Nicu Haas, an anthropologist at the Hebrew University Medical School in Jerusalem, examined the ossuary and discovered that it contained a heel bone with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the man had been crucified. The position of the nail relative to the bone indicates that the feet had been nailed to the cross from their side, not from their front; various opinions have been proposed as to whether they were both nailed together to the front of the cross or one on the left side, one on the right side. The point of the nail had olive wood fragments on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olive wood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned was crucified at eye level.

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/hung-on-a-tree.htm

Are there passages that put Calvary on the Mount of Olives?

Romans used 2 main rules for crucifixion spots. They must be very public to scare of people. It was often very near the spot of were the victim was caught or commited the crime. Jesus was was crucified near the altar where the red heifer was burned.

Using living trees for crucifixion was not the normal Roman practice. In the Roman-Jewish wars when the Romans crucified thousands of prisoners much of the landscape around the city was stripped of trees due to the need for usable wood for crucifixion.

Nailing to trees was quite common. Lots wood (trees) was used during the siege/war. Note that's I'm not saying Romans never/rarely used classic crosses. They did many many times.

[jabcat]

Here's the Christian Bible quote Tony;

In the center of the city's square, and across to each side of the river, was the Log of Life [formerly the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9, 3:22)], producing twelve kinds of fruit, giving out a different fruit each month;  and the log's leaves were for attending to the health of the nations.  Now no cursed thing will exist any longer..  Rev. 22: 2,3

[WhiteWings]

Why do you think Saul/Paul has two names?

God changes names. I'm sure those changes are highly significant. Evertyhing in the Bible has a (not so obvious) teaching/meaning in it.

Jacob --> Israel
Abram --> Abraham
Saul --> Paul
Sarai --> Sarah
Simon --> Peter

http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/palmer.pdf
http://www.biblereflections.com/?p=49
http://thealeph.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=59

[WhiteWings]

Legoman

I'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet.  Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'?  Or simply that he will be given another new name?

Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name

Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book. So perhaps the name that God gives us in the Book may not even be what we call each other here.

Sometimes God orders what name to use.
^YLTGen 17
19 and God saith, `Sarah thy wife is certainly bearing a son to thee, and thou hast called his name Isaac, and I have established My covenant with him, for a covenant age-during, to his seed after him.


Ofcourse that's no proof it's the same name as in BoL. The language in heaven possibly is vastly diffrent from any language on earth.
Maybe we all have  a name similar to: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/what_is_his_name_6282.msg66174.html#msg66174

Certainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.

They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.

They are a old bad person and a good new person.
Saul is not in BoL. Paul is.

[WhiteWings]

Here's the Christian Bible quote Tony;

In the center of the city's square, and across to each side of the river, was the Log of Life [formerly the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9, 3:22)], producing twelve kinds of fruit, giving out a different fruit each month;  and the log's leaves were for attending to the health of the nations.  Now no cursed thing will exist any longer..  Rev. 22: 2,3

What if the log is a patibulum

[thinktank]

That's really interesting.  I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.

wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.

The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?

It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.

There are two trees in the midst of Eden, but only one tree in the Holy City, the tree of life --Rev 22:2.

What does that mean?  What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?

 
International Standard Version (©2008)
Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Between the street of the city and the river there was a tree of life visible from both sides. It produced 12 kinds of fruit. Each month had its own fruit. The leaves of the tree will heal the nations.
--Rev 22:2

I find it interesting that God reverts back to the tree of life. This suggests that a large portion off humanity will live because they eat the tree of life. But we as believers in this age already have eternal life. Paul said we shall be changed in an instance that mortality shall put on immortality.

I don't know if this has anything to with the lambs book of life. Perhaps those in the lambs book are believers and receive life through Christ, but those not in the book will receive life via the tree of life, as they were unworthy of the lamb, so they will instead receive Gods mercy of being fed, supernatural fruit that Adam and Eve had access too in the garden.
 
Think Tank

[legoman]

Certainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.

They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.

Yes - same person, but two different natures.  The new name corresponds to the new nature.  The old name corresponds to the old nature. 

Old nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ

The old nature is not saved.  It is destroyed.  It is replaced with the new nature.

Saul's old nature was to persecute and kill - he did this to the letter of the law, yet completely missed the spirit of the law: LOVE YOUR ENEMY.

The point is that God gives us a new name different than our earthly name on the white stone which we will be known by throughout eternal LIFE.
I think the name we have throughout eternal LIFE, the one on the white stone, is the same name that we are known by in the Lamb's Book of  LIFE

The Lamb gives you your new name on a white stone.
The Lamb has His Book of Life with your name in it.

I think the Name the Lamb has for you in the Book.
is the same name the Lamb gives you from the Book.

This is NOT the same name as you are known by here on Earth. 

So a person may well have a public name in heaven known to all
and a private name just between him and the lamb.

But, we understand that  at this point this is mere speculation.

I agree here.  The point is that it is the new name that is written in the book of life.  Perhaps we are getting hung up on the specific name.  Whether in the case of Saul/Paul if the specific new name is "Paul" that is written in the BoL, we cannot know for sure. 

In my mind the BoL is highly symbolic - spiritual.  I don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink.  It is most likely representing Christ Himself.  See "The book of the life of the lamb". 

Back to Saul/Paul: I was reading some scholar's thoughts on why he had two names. 
Saul was a Hebrew name, and Paul was possibly his Roman name.  It is possibly he had both names.  He may have changed which name he used to identify more with the Romans.
It could also possibly signify a change in nature (which obviously he did have a change of nature).
The name Saul has meanings of 'desired', 'great', 'tall' - it references King Saul.
The name Paul has meanings of 'little' or 'humility'.

So Saul changed from being great to being humble (Paul).

Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'?  I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.

The bible is highly symbolic with many layers.  The physical is representing what happens in the spiritual. So the fact that Saul/Paul had 2 names in the physical seems to me to be a type/shadow for the spiritual.

The point is Saul/Paul got a new name - his new name is in the BoL, his old name is not.  Is the individual Saul/Paul not saved because his carnal name is not in the BoL?  No of course not.  The carnal nature was destroyed.  That is how he was saved.

So how does this relate to names being blotted out?  I'm not exactly sure at this point.  Perhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out.  Saul was blotted out.  But Paul (or whatever his new name is) was in the BoL.