Author Topic: John 20:23  (Read 241 times)

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Offline GerWat

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John 20:23
« on: March 13, 2015, 05:58:35 PM »
Not sure it has any UR significance but just wondering how y'all might handle John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

I know that in the mystic tradition it's taken literally.  The Catholic tradition gives that authority to priests only.  Charismatic tradition says, we can only relate what the Holy Spirit says.  I think Evangelicals try to ignore it saying, one obscure verse can't be used to dismiss many others. 

Personally I like the mystic best but what does UR say?

jerry




Offline Tom

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 07:55:04 PM »
I think, taken in context, that was Christ speaking to his disciples in Israel, and I don't think everything Christ said to them and the powers given to them apply to those of us of the nations today. Regarding the "mystic tradition," I think all believers experience a sense of mysticism. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I left it when I was young. I think its priests forgiving you, when you confess your sins to them, and telling you to pray to Mary for penance is false doctrine. But I think we can forgive our fellow human beings when they sin against us because it is the holy spirit of God within us that causes us to do so. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and God is now conciliated to mankind. We just need to be conciliated to God. When that happens there is reconciliation. At the consummation of the eons, all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. That's universal reconciliation.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 08:01:26 PM by Tom »

Offline GerWat

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 10:17:46 PM »
Ah!  That reminds me of what Dr Atteshlis (Mystic of Cyprus) said, that when we sin it's against the whole of humanity.  So, as a representative of the offended (humanity), we're forgiving the offender (and ourselves in a sense) when we forgive one another.  Basically, our guilt holds us back in our own mind and receiving forgiveness releases us.

We are forgiven by God already but we are human and as such need forgiveness from our own to be reconciled on earth as well. 

As with many passages of scripture, the true meaning can be difficult to grasp.

But that's, more or less, the mystic view.

Another related verse may be Mark 2:9, "Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 07:09:39 PM »
the opposite of retain is remit, or forgive.

Remission of sin is received through several means. Simple confession and repentence before God is the most common way. Baptism in water is another way- dealing with the past sins of a new believer. Being released by the laying on of hands of an elder is also a means of remission.

I personally think personal remission can be different from the unilateral forgiveness God has granted all. Sometimes release has been granted, but the prisoner needs a key to open the cell.

So James says,

14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

So there is a connection between sickness and sin and healing and forgiveness, or remission of sin. In your example, Mark 2:9, as Jesus said, Judge for yourselves whther it is easier for me to say, "Your sins are forgiven you, or "Rise up and walk

He was showing that healing flows through the forgiveness of sin.

I think John 20:23 is similar to Mark 16:19 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

As in another example Jesus gives, "If he refuses to believe you, take him before the church and let him be as an unbeliever"

or Paul saying, "I have determined, in the presence of God and His holy angels, to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh...."

IMO, All these kinds of verses relate back to Jesus words in John 20:23.

As we mature in the Spirit of Christ("be careful how you hear, to him who has more shall be given, to him who has not even that which he has shall be taken away") various keys to the kingdom begin to function in our lives as "repairers of the breach"- only because a mature disciple can be trusted to use any gift  of the spirit or spiritual key to heal that same separation of connection we are talking about. :o)

So I see it as you do....... we are all connected. Sin separates, forgiveness unites. All sin is ultimately a statement that I am not a part of you, so I am not accountable to you. Sin creates this separation and it is a wound in the whole of mankind.

This separation is what Jesus came to heal, by showing that He was connected to all. Now that healing is spreading to all, one cell at a time, until all are forgiven, until all are healed, until all are one and universally connected.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."


The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline Pig

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 08:09:22 AM »
I boldly proclaim that sins are forgiven by Christ on the cross. Already... not conditionally.
I have full confidence that Christ died for all, and first loved us while still sinners and enemies.
(Most evangelicals believe that you have to cease being an enemy before Christ dies for you.)
I then teach that as the prostitute, he first loves us, and made us into the virgin bride.
It is a virgin marriage because our fruitfulness is the fruit of the spirit, and we multiply by making disciples.
I command people to become the bride and return his love, and disciple them to do so.

In the Hebrew hermeneutic: Rebeckah, was a virgin chosen by the Father for his son, but the word-play says the servant took/married her, and when she saw Isaac, she covered herself, suggesting she was uncovered with the servant. The hermeneutic does not suggest she was literally sinning,  but it hints at the prostitute-virgin motif.

Leah played the prostitute, and Rachel represents the virgin.,
Gomer was a prostitute but hints at a virgin birth by naming her son 'God sows'.
Mary had the hint of the prostitute, being pregnant, but was a virgin.
Tamar played the prostitute, it was declared "there is no prostitute here" and she was called more honorable than Judah.
You will find many more that build the motif.

The message of the gospel is that Christ died for sinners. You are invited to the marriage feast as the bride. 

Offline GerWat

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 06:51:59 AM »
Eaglesway, I like very much what you said there.

"So I see it as you do....... we are all connected. Sin separates, forgiveness unites. All sin is ultimately a statement that I am not a part of you, so I am not accountable to you. Sin creates this separation and it is a wound in the whole of mankind.

This separation is what Jesus came to heal, by showing that He was connected to all. Now that healing is spreading to all, one cell at a time, until all are forgiven, until all are healed, until all are one and universally connected.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.""

Very similar to what I know of the mystic tradition.  I'm beginning to see the similarities, in this area at least.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 10:59:27 PM »
Yes, it is, for me one of the most beautiful aspects of the mystic revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is also the first thing that ever brought me understanding of the conviction of sin. I did not really, even as a Christian, understand sin apart from the law(arbitrary, right and wrong) until I got this gift of understanding from the Lord that we are all connected, and that when we hurt one another we are hurting ouselves, and the distance we create between one another is the distance we create between ourselves and God, because He is the essence that flows though us all and makes us one.

This is why the two great commandments incorporate all of the practical revelation of God. There is no need for any other command for anyone who truly understands those two commands in the light of the revelation of the love of God.

"A new command I give you, love one another."

This is why forgiveness, tolerance, kindness, forbearance, patience, humility, gentleness, meekness- are all so important. They allow love to grow and thrive. Love is the connection between all, the river of life, the river of love.

"For in Him we live and move and have our being"

John hears, in the river of God, a noise like "10,000's  of 10,000's praising God". He hears this same sound in the wings of the seraphim, and when he hears the voice of God, it is also like 10,000's of 10,000's praising God.

"The Spirit and the Bride say Come, drink freely of the water of life"
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com