Author Topic: John 20:23  (Read 580 times)

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Offline GerWat

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John 20:23
« on: March 13, 2015, 05:58:35 PM »
Not sure it has any UR significance but just wondering how y'all might handle John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

I know that in the mystic tradition it's taken literally.  The Catholic tradition gives that authority to priests only.  Charismatic tradition says, we can only relate what the Holy Spirit says.  I think Evangelicals try to ignore it saying, one obscure verse can't be used to dismiss many others. 

Personally I like the mystic best but what does UR say?

jerry




Offline Tom

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 07:55:04 PM »
I think, taken in context, that was Christ speaking to his disciples in Israel, and I don't think everything Christ said to them and the powers given to them apply to those of us of the nations today. Regarding the "mystic tradition," I think all believers experience a sense of mysticism. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I left it when I was young. I think its priests forgiving you, when you confess your sins to them, and telling you to pray to Mary for penance is false doctrine. But I think we can forgive our fellow human beings when they sin against us because it is the holy spirit of God within us that causes us to do so. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and God is now conciliated to mankind. We just need to be conciliated to God. When that happens there is reconciliation. At the consummation of the eons, all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. That's universal reconciliation.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 08:01:26 PM by Tom »

Offline GerWat

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 10:17:46 PM »
Ah!  That reminds me of what Dr Atteshlis (Mystic of Cyprus) said, that when we sin it's against the whole of humanity.  So, as a representative of the offended (humanity), we're forgiving the offender (and ourselves in a sense) when we forgive one another.  Basically, our guilt holds us back in our own mind and receiving forgiveness releases us.

We are forgiven by God already but we are human and as such need forgiveness from our own to be reconciled on earth as well. 

As with many passages of scripture, the true meaning can be difficult to grasp.

But that's, more or less, the mystic view.

Another related verse may be Mark 2:9, "Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 07:09:39 PM »
the opposite of retain is remit, or forgive.

Remission of sin is received through several means. Simple confession and repentence before God is the most common way. Baptism in water is another way- dealing with the past sins of a new believer. Being released by the laying on of hands of an elder is also a means of remission.

I personally think personal remission can be different from the unilateral forgiveness God has granted all. Sometimes release has been granted, but the prisoner needs a key to open the cell.

So James says,

14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

So there is a connection between sickness and sin and healing and forgiveness, or remission of sin. In your example, Mark 2:9, as Jesus said, Judge for yourselves whther it is easier for me to say, "Your sins are forgiven you, or "Rise up and walk

He was showing that healing flows through the forgiveness of sin.

I think John 20:23 is similar to Mark 16:19 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

As in another example Jesus gives, "If he refuses to believe you, take him before the church and let him be as an unbeliever"

or Paul saying, "I have determined, in the presence of God and His holy angels, to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh...."

IMO, All these kinds of verses relate back to Jesus words in John 20:23.

As we mature in the Spirit of Christ("be careful how you hear, to him who has more shall be given, to him who has not even that which he has shall be taken away") various keys to the kingdom begin to function in our lives as "repairers of the breach"- only because a mature disciple can be trusted to use any gift  of the spirit or spiritual key to heal that same separation of connection we are talking about. :o)

So I see it as you do....... we are all connected. Sin separates, forgiveness unites. All sin is ultimately a statement that I am not a part of you, so I am not accountable to you. Sin creates this separation and it is a wound in the whole of mankind.

This separation is what Jesus came to heal, by showing that He was connected to all. Now that healing is spreading to all, one cell at a time, until all are forgiven, until all are healed, until all are one and universally connected.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."


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Offline Pig

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 08:09:22 AM »
I boldly proclaim that sins are forgiven by Christ on the cross. Already... not conditionally.
I have full confidence that Christ died for all, and first loved us while still sinners and enemies.
(Most evangelicals believe that you have to cease being an enemy before Christ dies for you.)
I then teach that as the prostitute, he first loves us, and made us into the virgin bride.
It is a virgin marriage because our fruitfulness is the fruit of the spirit, and we multiply by making disciples.
I command people to become the bride and return his love, and disciple them to do so.

In the Hebrew hermeneutic: Rebeckah, was a virgin chosen by the Father for his son, but the word-play says the servant took/married her, and when she saw Isaac, she covered herself, suggesting she was uncovered with the servant. The hermeneutic does not suggest she was literally sinning,  but it hints at the prostitute-virgin motif.

Leah played the prostitute, and Rachel represents the virgin.,
Gomer was a prostitute but hints at a virgin birth by naming her son 'God sows'.
Mary had the hint of the prostitute, being pregnant, but was a virgin.
Tamar played the prostitute, it was declared "there is no prostitute here" and she was called more honorable than Judah.
You will find many more that build the motif.

The message of the gospel is that Christ died for sinners. You are invited to the marriage feast as the bride. 

Offline GerWat

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 06:51:59 AM »
Eaglesway, I like very much what you said there.

"So I see it as you do....... we are all connected. Sin separates, forgiveness unites. All sin is ultimately a statement that I am not a part of you, so I am not accountable to you. Sin creates this separation and it is a wound in the whole of mankind.

This separation is what Jesus came to heal, by showing that He was connected to all. Now that healing is spreading to all, one cell at a time, until all are forgiven, until all are healed, until all are one and universally connected.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.""

Very similar to what I know of the mystic tradition.  I'm beginning to see the similarities, in this area at least.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 10:59:27 PM »
Yes, it is, for me one of the most beautiful aspects of the mystic revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is also the first thing that ever brought me understanding of the conviction of sin. I did not really, even as a Christian, understand sin apart from the law(arbitrary, right and wrong) until I got this gift of understanding from the Lord that we are all connected, and that when we hurt one another we are hurting ouselves, and the distance we create between one another is the distance we create between ourselves and God, because He is the essence that flows though us all and makes us one.

This is why the two great commandments incorporate all of the practical revelation of God. There is no need for any other command for anyone who truly understands those two commands in the light of the revelation of the love of God.

"A new command I give you, love one another."

This is why forgiveness, tolerance, kindness, forbearance, patience, humility, gentleness, meekness- are all so important. They allow love to grow and thrive. Love is the connection between all, the river of life, the river of love.

"For in Him we live and move and have our being"

John hears, in the river of God, a noise like "10,000's  of 10,000's praising God". He hears this same sound in the wings of the seraphim, and when he hears the voice of God, it is also like 10,000's of 10,000's praising God.

"The Spirit and the Bride say Come, drink freely of the water of life"
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Offline Dandelion

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2015, 03:06:49 AM »
We are the Body of Christ. When one part of the body suffers, so the entire body suffers.

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; Romans 12:4 -6
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline Pig

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 07:35:37 AM »
Not sure it has any UR significance but just wondering how y'all might handle John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."


I don't know UR yet but:

This is a hard teaching... no even impossible without Christ:

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
2. All sin is against God
3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God.
4. Love is absorbing sin
5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
The essence of original sin is that Eve chose to act instinctively, putting her flesh above the word of God.
The result was more object lessons to say that God is separate/holy.

2. All sin is against God.
When David had stolen a man's wife and had him killed, he then repented saying: Against you alone have I sinned oh Lord. He sinned against God because the wife and the man belonged to God. When people sin against us they sin against God because we belong to God. That sets us free from taking offense.

3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God. He is the offended one, not us.

4. Love is absorbing sin.
Love is the choice we make to not take offense and do whatever possible to not let someone sin against us. If we are slapped we interpret it as an accident. If our stereo is stolen, we give them the TV so that they cannot sin against us. And if we are compelled to bake a cake, we bake two.  Sorry, so easily I am distracted and get to preaching  ;)

5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
When we realized we have sinned by making ourself equal to God by taking offense, we quickly repent by forgiving. Forgiving has nothing to do with the other person. It is me confessing to God that I have stolen his perogative. And I do what I am able so that the other has no sense of having sinned against me.

6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
When we haven't forgiven, we are still playing God, and are still in original sin.

7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.
Jesus taught us to pray, Lord forgive me as I have forgiven them. Our sin is retained if we do not acknowlege God as God.

Offline rosered

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 09:40:28 PM »
Not sure it has any UR significance but just wondering how y'all might handle John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."


I don't know UR yet but:

This is a hard teaching... no even impossible without Christ:

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
2. All sin is against God
3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God.
4. Love is absorbing sin
5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
The essence of original sin is that Eve chose to act instinctively, putting her flesh above the word of God.
The result was more object lessons to say that God is separate/holy.

2. All sin is against God.
When David had stolen a man's wife and had him killed, he then repented saying: Against you alone have I sinned oh Lord. He sinned against God because the wife and the man belonged to God. When people sin against us they sin against God because we belong to God. That sets us free from taking offense.

3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God. He is the offended one, not us.

4. Love is absorbing sin.
Love is the choice we make to not take offense and do whatever possible to not let someone sin against us. If we are slapped we interpret it as an accident. If our stereo is stolen, we give them the TV so that they cannot sin against us. And if we are compelled to bake a cake, we bake two.  Sorry, so easily I am distracted and get to preaching  ;)

5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
When we realized we have sinned by making ourself equal to God by taking offense, we quickly repent by forgiving. Forgiving has nothing to do with the other person. It is me confessing to God that I have stolen his perogative. And I do what I am able so that the other has no sense of having sinned against me.

6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
When we haven't forgiven, we are still playing God, and are still in original sin.

7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.
Jesus taught us to pray, Lord forgive me as I have forgiven them. Our sin is retained if we do not acknowlege God as God.

 I like what you shared    P  very much so ,     
 and How you went on the explain  why    .... 
 
 I can certainly see how you have come to this conclusion ...
 
  and    I know this   much , when Jesus saw what  they were made of   he said ,"When Jesus saw their faith, He said 'Friend, your sins are forgiven.
 
 Without faith it is impossible to please Him  and to seek Him while he  can be found ...   Isaiah 55  6Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

 7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
 
  6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


 
I think many fail to know their time of visitation  :sigh:....      Once realizing this,,,, I begged Him never leave me  , for I am weak and   miserable ,poor, blind and naked without Him  and fail all the tests  . :HeartThrob:
 
 
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: John 20:23
« Reply #10 on: Today at 05:36:02 AM »
Jesus said, What is the difference if I say rise u and walk or your sins are forgiven you? But so you know the son of man has been given the authority on earth to forgive sin...... take up your bed and walk.(close I think from memory)

James said, "Are their any sick among you? Let them call upon the elders of the church, and the prayer of faith will save the sick and if they have any sins they shall be forgiven."(sins remitted)

He also spoke of those who would not repent after being taken before the whole congregation for correction, and said, "If they repent, you have won your brother, if not, Let them be as a heathen unto you".(sins retained)

Jesus gave the apostles the keys to the kingdom of God. He had received "all authority on heaven and earth" and He was passing that authority on to them for use among the ecclesia.

 :2c:

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com