Author Topic: 1 Peter 4:18  (Read 432 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2015, 12:27:49 AM »
As for more scriptures about why I believe that, I wrote my reasoning here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html

It ended up being 2 parts because there was alot to discuss. Beliefs are based on literal statements if scripture but also on trends and clues. It's a belief not an end all be all truth.

The scriptures that I base my reasoning on are in the paper and would be hard to put in a single forum reply because it's a lot to discuss.

Sure, I understand, it is dense undergrowth to walk through conceptually and scripturally. And I agree with reaping in this life as a form of kolassis(correction) and pyr(purging fire)- I just don't think that is the limit of it.
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Offline Seth

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2015, 12:33:22 AM »
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.

I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.

In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30

Offline dajomaco

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2015, 01:30:02 AM »
Really, I do not think that death is sufficient for some. I think the second death will be, as an extension of Adams death following the wicked into the coming age- the wrath to come, which all the prophets and apostles(imo) do bear witness to as well.


Could this be considered a form of purgatory?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2015, 02:49:30 AM »
If I was to look at purgatory from the view of C. S. Lewis's The Great Divirce- I would say yes, because I think the lake of fire is the bringing of every hidden thing to light, as light is fire to darkness. The answer to chaos(without form and void) is "Let there be light". The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. Classic Catholic purgatory where you can pray people out of it or make offerings to get them out, I can't see that.

2 Cor 4: 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

So I think that "tormented(corrected) in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"(Rev 14:12) means that in the presence of all the witnesses of all the ages, the righteousness of Christ crucified will "tear down every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knoweldge of God" until "every knee has bowed whther in heaven or one earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" which will subject every adversary that remains after this age and the next, including those whose names are not written in the Lamb' book of life.

The wicked are not in the presence of God to be corrected in this life.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (Rev 14)

Noticing that the correction for a wayward saint was to "Take them before the whole assembly".... I think aionian correction will be the same in essence- thats what I believe the lake of fire is, a kind of forced intervention before the whole family of God.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant(the bold part is the lake of fire imo), and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I think this applies to Hebrews 12, a picture of heavenly Zion(upon this mountain I will remove the covering(vail KJV) that covers the peoples, Isaiah) and the heavenly assembly, interestingly concluding with not escaping because, "our God is a consuming fire"



« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:14:00 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2015, 02:53:22 AM »
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.

I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.

In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30

No, I thought you were saying that all kolassis is limited to having been accomplished through reaping in this life, which I disagree with. I think there is also a period of correction after this life for hardened adversaries, hypocrites, etc. represented metaphorically by Gehenna and the lake of fire, and spoken of literally by Jesus as "the wrath to come", "aionian pyr" and "aionian kolassis". So I believe in kolassis/purging fire both this life and the next life for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life..
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:02:56 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Seth

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2015, 03:07:02 AM »
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.

I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.

In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30

No, I thought you were saying that all kolassis is limited to having been accomplished through reaping in this life, which I disagree with. I think there is a period of correction after this life for hardened adversaries, represented metaphorically by Gehenna and the lake of fire, and spoken of literally by Jesus as "the wrath to come", "aionian pyr" and aionian kolassis".

No I definitely don't think it's all accomplished through reaping in this life. In this life we can "store up" wrath. I believe the elements that God uses for the final judgement are currently in the world such as darkness, blindness,.reaping and.sowing,.Satan being useful in destruction of the flesh. I believe the final judgment will incorporate all these aspects.

Deuteronomy 4 even explains how that God is a consuming fire in that his judgement is to turn over Israel to foreign lands for worshipping idols. There, he says that Egypt is an iron smelting fire. I think that kind of judgement will be used in the LOF for the purpose of inspiring repentance. That's what I believe death (in sin) has to do with the LOF and what rivers of  life (the Spirit) have to do with New Jerusalem. Fire for the purpose of creating thirst. Death for the purpose of generating a true honest desire for Life and that through repentance.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:18:52 AM by Seth »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2015, 04:29:23 AM »
Once we talk it out we usually wind up pretty close to understanding each other LOLOL
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Offline Seth

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2015, 04:30:52 AM »
 :laughing7:  :friendstu:

Offline marie glen

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2015, 08:50:40 AM »

I agree with your statement about 1 Cor 15. However, I cannot see anything other than the dead, great and small, who are raised at the second resurrestion and judged by the things written in the book, (their consciences as per Romans 2) as those who are cast into the lake of fire. This co-ordinates with matthew 25:41 and Rev 14:10; 19:20 ;20-11-14

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"(Mt)  These are individuals.

Rev 19:11-15 This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

I believe these are the same individual people spoken of in Mt 25(Lord, Lord), and Romans 2

Ro 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek......

14 or when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

It is the secrets of men, not institutions, that are judged at the GWT as I read the scriptures.

In Eph 2:7 Paul speaks of "ages to come", so I see another age(at least) after the millienial age(the age to come), in which the word of the Lord covers the eart as the water covers the sea.  I see the lake of fire as an age between the lake of fire and the all in all of God, but we really arent given much detail about anything beyond the GWT, so I am satisfied to co-exist with diverse opinions on it- we see it "thru a glass darkly". :o)

matthew 25:41 ..this would then be LOF at His return? as this portion begins with "when the Son of man comes in His glory with His holy angels.." verse 31. I think of this LOF as part of "he comes in fire and with His angles.." 2 thess 1;7,8 ...a thermonuclear lake

..the "wine of the wrath of God" i believe, is the results which will occur on the planet,  (rev 14:10) agelasting

19:20, the (world) beast/body/governing and the false prophet/teaching I believe are institutions of mankind alive (active) on the planet at Jesus' return (agelasting is not mentioned) ..are two. And are cast into the LOF before judgment day. (world beast and false prophet/great delusion has changed the world, making way for the great falling away, dissolution of family, etc)

"thru a glass darkly" - amen, that's very true! :gsmile:

..basically it's simply, if the ancient spring Holy Days prophesied His first advent, then (surely?) the ancient Fall ones prophecy His long 2nd advent.. from His return (trumpets) to when He hands over the Kingdom to the Father (tabernacles) - lev 23:24-39 (making judgment day, day of atonement). And the 10 days representing the millenium, thus the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles, 500 years, age of judgment


p.s. - the false prophet (i believe) began as a man, but now does many modern miracles and wonders, including gave the fire, which was rev 13:13 - will cease to exist..
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 08:54:17 AM by marie glen »
God Is Very Geo-Political. "The nations will trust in Him"etc, etc.. & about  Jesus - "the nations have seen a great light"  ..& when He returns "He will judge between many nations, they'll beat their swords into pruning hooks and plows, and not learn war anymore, but each one under their own vine and fruit tree, and no one will bother them" -Micah 4:3,4. Mankind's history will fully vindicate God and the Truth at every point..

- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection)? Is it written no names in Book Of Life during age of Judgment?/doA?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2015, 03:49:14 PM »
I think He is talking about the GWT, not the second coming, in Mt 25 41
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Offline Seth

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2015, 09:29:36 PM »
Just to follow up about what I was saying about the elements of the final judgment and why I talk about that. I see it as a counter-point to the ET view of final judgment according to this supposed literal lake of literal fire that nobody has seen, that supposedly will be seen for the first time by those plummeting to their demise.

I think that sort of mystery contributes to the fear (the wrong type) that ET doctrine spreads, this sort of looming cave-like existence with this kind of metaphysical fire with the capability to torment wicked spiritual beings as though they were physical. And, nobody has seen it before so people write books like "23 Minutes in Hell" to "educate" us as to what the final judgment will be like and look like. I've heard that somehow there will be lots of fire, yet totally dark so you can't see your own hands. Go figure.

Over time, as I have studied, I have come to the conclusion that the "wrath to come," being yet future, is made of the building blocks of things that we can see in this life. For example, in Isaiah 9, it says that "wickedness burns like a fire that consumes the briars and thorns and raises up like a column of smoke." I believe Revelation 14 is incorporating that language in its description of the torment received by those in LOF.

I also see a correlation in Hebrews 6 where it says, "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

Dante and Hieronymus Bosch produced works that attempted to fill the gap as to what Hell supposedly looks like because it's still this mystery to them. But, I can see wickedness today how it is like a fire, erosive, damaging, humbling. Based on what I believe about how final judgment will be executed, I can see the elements that will make up that judgment already in play. I don't think we can know how each individual person will be judged, but I think the general idea is that abiding in Christ causes joy and not abiding in Christ causes pain and suffering according to one's own reaping.

Jesus will say "away from me ye who work iniquity." What are the implications of being "away" from Christ? Certainly not physically, because who can hide from God? Jesus fills everything so nobody can be hidden from him. So, I take it to mean, their recompense is to be cast away in the sense of not abiding in him and ALL the negative consequences for that which will follow, which will lead to "trouble and distress" (Romans 2), and eventual repentance.

I think the way ETers view the elements to be used in the final judgment (literal fire, demons with pitchforks, etc) depend on a lot of fantasy and mystery, whereas I believe I can see how it works logically in the future as it does today: you reap what you sow, and if you plant a bad tree, you get bad fruit and it will make you sick. I see that logic today, as well as occurring in the wrath to come.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2015, 10:12:31 PM »
 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

Is the lake of fire corrective? or does it just reveal that which is already there.
Does everyone have some aspect of them self that is eternal and the
 LOF burns up that which is not eternal?

Is there a part of all men that once the flesh is burned up (their works )
That what is left(spirit) automatically bends his knee and confesses Jesus as Lord .



Offline Seth

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2015, 10:16:44 PM »
Is the lake of fire corrective? or does it just reveal that which is already there.

I see it as both. The revelation coming through experience finding out the hard way that sin is our enemy not our friend. I see the destruction of the flesh pertaining to the destruction of the carnal mind with Satan's role being the devouring one and deceiver.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 1 Peter 4:18
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2015, 11:10:26 PM »
I also see it as both also, in fact, I see it as correcting by exposing what is already there(hidden) to the light(exposed).

Jesus said in Matthew 10:26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Paul said, in Ephesians 5:13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

Light is fire to darkness, consuming it, leaving all as light.

John sees Jesus(Rev 1) with fire in His eyes and a two-edged sword coming out of His mouth.

 Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Romans 2:15 ...their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

I think the lake of fire is light ..."he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev 14:10

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

The overwhelming light of the presence/face of Christ, the fire of His penetrating eyes, and the sword of the Spirit dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart will "plumb the depths" and bring every secret to light.

Everything brought to the light becomes light.

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