Author Topic: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire  (Read 3602 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« on: November 28, 2010, 09:26:51 PM »
YLTMatthew 5
22 but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

(thanks WW for contribution)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 02:23:16 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 09:27:43 PM »
micah said;

Here we read that Jesus is speaking to the disciples and not to every one. I believe it is important to know who is being instructed. This message was to be taken for  instructions of those who would become the teachers and the consequenses where for them.

Quaesitor

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 09:03:38 PM »
Judgement and Sanhedrin are earthly, temporal consequences so it would seem logical that gehenna would be too.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 11:43:17 PM »
Yes, Sanhedrin is just the high court with human judges. Some may say they act on behalf of God making is God judgement too.
Besides of that the verse seems to have increasing severity.
Judgement -> Sanhedrin -> Gehenna

Also important in to remember that KJV translates Gehenna fire as hellfire.
Hellfire is by defenition eternal torture in hell.
So to debunk this verse we need:
1] Prove the right translation is Gehenna.
2] Gehenna is not some parable for hell.
3] The verse doesn't imply for ever in Gehenna. (think of the worm shall not die and the fire shall not be quenched)
4] Only dead (executed) people were cast in Gehenna. The two thieves on the cross very likely were cast in Gehenna at the time of Jesus burial.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline marie glen

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 07:13:04 AM »
YLTMatthew 5
22 but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.



Gehenna was the dump outside of Jerusalem, where trash was burned until consumed. He was at the time ministering within the framework of the Judaic Law. Which reveals how we are all destined there ("the wages/result of sin is death" John 3:16, i.e. to be consumed. Gehenna was not 'hell' but was a dump outside of Jerusalem which included the burning of unclaimed bodies of the criminal or indigent.
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 01:54:20 PM »
What do you all think about this opinion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

According to parts of the Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and false gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6 The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier in-tertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore[1][2]. However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire (see Sheol).



There is a lack of direct references to Gehenna in the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudepigrapha and Philo.

Josephus does not deal with this aspect of the history of the Hinnom Valley in his descriptions of Jerusalem for a Roman audience. Nor does Josephus make any mention of the tradition commonly reported in older Christian commentaries that in Roman times fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were thrown. Source references for this tradition seem to be lacking.

The southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 02:19:52 PM »
On-topic note for James.

I never heard ET/ED people claiming there was no city dump as the above article suggests.
But if they do what would be our answer.
What was Jesus refering to if that city dump never existed?

I have one possible answer of which I can't give any sources right now.
70AD lots of Jews where killed during the final assualt of the Romans.
It's said the Romans stripped the area in a 5 (?) mile radius of trees for crucifixion stakes and wood to burn 1000's of corpses.
That would be a Gehenna also.....
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 06:39:13 PM »
On-topic note for James.

I never heard ET/ED people claiming there was no city dump as the above article suggests.
But if they do what would be our answer.
What was Jesus refering to if that city dump never existed?


Just tell them to go to google maps.  You can see the exact location of Gehenna via satellite photo.  Its a nice grassy valley...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 07:06:05 PM »
Or here. http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/2010/photos-of-hell/
But then they will say: Surely Jesus didn'r warn about a nice grassy valley.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 07:23:31 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Matthew 5:22
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 10:14:56 PM »
Or here. http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/2010/photos-of-hell/
But then they will say: Surely Jesus didn'r warn about a nice grassy valley.

Well it was on fire at the time of Jesus, but those fires went out... unquenchable fire does go out when it is finished!

Offline legoman

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 10:17:51 PM »
I wrote this on the city-data forum a while ago.  Reposting as it is relevant here:
--

To understand the truth of universal salvation, one must begin to understand what these verses on Gehenna are really talking about. Its not an eternal hell of suffering and torment. It could be a reference to the lake of fire (but that is debatable even amongst those who believe UR).


What Jesus meant about Gehenna

Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].

Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).


The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:

[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".


So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.

Again, its helpful to remember what judgment is for: setting things right - teaching righteousness.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 11:45:55 PM »
 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 05:09:14 AM »
Matthew 5:22 (Young's Literal Translation)

but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.


Jesus was talking about secular authority, imprisonment, judgment...  :winkgrin:

The only verse that can be damnationalized might be the "Fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna"... Anyone know how "Body and Soul" can be destroyed in Gehenna? Louis Abbot said that constituted their whole being, and social status (which Jews were conscious about).

J.W. Hanson says it simply refers to complete obliteration of both the body, and the soul (totally burned up to ashes).

pollypinks

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 10:11:11 PM »
All wlll be judged by a just God, and punishment meted out.  This does not mean they will not be saved.  We have to compare all scripture against the hellfire and damnation stuff, and come to a logical conclusion that early philosophers did indeed have influence in how some of the Biblical authors wrote their texts.  It is perfectly appropriate to come to the conclusion of eternal torment, if that's how you see it, and if it makes you happy knowing you and yours are saved from such a thing.  It also makes perfect sense that there will be a complete coming to Christ post death, by those who knew him not in this life.  And if they didn't have brain function that caused them to make perfect sense out of Christianity in this life, we know how many tongues are going to confess eventually.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 11:23:22 PM »
All wlll be judged by a just God, and punishment meted out.  This does not mean they will not be saved.  We have to compare all scripture against the hellfire and damnation stuff, and come to a logical conclusion that early philosophers did indeed have influence in how some of the Biblical authors wrote their texts.  It is perfectly appropriate to come to the conclusion of eternal torment, if that's how you see it, and if it makes you happy knowing you and yours are saved from such a thing.  It also makes perfect sense that there will be a complete coming to Christ post death, by those who knew him not in this life.  And if they didn't have brain function that caused them to make perfect sense out of Christianity in this life, we know how many tongues are going to confess eventually.

When I hear those of ET belief grumble about if everyone is saved what does Jesus save us from...I feel an underlying jealousy.  I'm not sure if it's everyone or anyone but it's just something that seems to be there.  Like, we lived for God...and should be rewarded differently than those who you claim will also be saved.  When I think about this the parable of the vineyard and laborers comes to mind.


Matthew 20
1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
   3 "About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went.

   "He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

   7 "'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

   "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

   8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

   9 "The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

   13 "But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

   16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 5:22 In Danger of Hell Fire
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2011, 11:30:45 PM »
That's exactly the parable I thought after reading the first line of your post.
But to be honest many (all?) ETs that turning to Jesus a second before death is enough for salvation.

 
Quote
7 "'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

I think the ETs have a real problem with the laborers that aren't hired at all....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...