Author Topic: Matthew 26:24  (Read 5295 times)

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Agent X

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Matthew 26:24
« on: July 07, 2011, 06:14:56 PM »
Quote
Mat 26:24 KJV

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:
but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Greetings all,

My online persona is Agent X. I am a Christian studying Universalism and I am finding a lot of interesting perspectives.
Many questions I have held within are being answered, but new questions are coming up.

One such question is what did Jesus mean by this statement?

"it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Would this not infer that he (Judas) was about to encounter something so terrifying, so great in it's evil that he would have been better off to never exist?
I always interpreted this passage to mean that Judas was about to be spending an eternity in hellfire.

Why else would it be better to have never have been born, then spend all eternity in anguish and torment?


Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 07:37:32 PM »
 it is always better if the 'man of sin' had never been 'born'...for he is of the offspring of viper spirit'satan entered him'   born of the spirit..whether Holy

  or evil. Jesus said,'did I not choose you 12,yet one of you is a devil/liar.  Unregenerated man..it would have been better if he had not been born..for

   sin in the flesh is condemned rightly so by God...for He made man for His spirit to dwell in....and anyone that touches you is as good as a dead man.

   Really I would wish that none of us had ever been born in sin. Woe to the earth for the devil has come down to you.

    God declared,'sacrifice and offering I did NOT want,but obediance, and this 'LISTEN TO HIM"...but due to sin in the flesh..he was sacrificed/betrayed

   for this reason,he cried out 'FATHER,FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO"

   1 Cor 15;49 as was the earthly man,so where those of the earth,and as is the man from heaven,so also are those who are of heaven,and just as we

  have borne the likeness of the earthly man,so too shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. 2 Peter 1;21  For prophecy never had

  it's origen in the will of man,but men spoke from God as they were borne along of the Holy spirit.  John 3;8The wind bloweth where it may,and no-one

  knows wher it comes from,or where it goes,so to,those born of the spirit

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 08:02:14 PM »
Yes, all of us were lowered into this condition to "have an experience of evil".  However, some have been chosen for an even more difficult path in this life,  as He created vessels of both honor and dishonor.  All to suit His purposes here.     However, All to be restored at the consummation of the ages.

Quoting Dora Van Assen,   "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Rom.8,20-21.CCV Please note that God has given every man HOPE. There is always hope for everyone no matter how bound in sin and degradation. He is lowered into this death realm in EXPECTATION of something even better than what he had before.   http://www.godfire.net/kennedy/dora_van_assen_exact_immage.htm
 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 08:35:23 PM »
Not only eternal torture is to be avoided. Most people try to avoid even 1 year in jail. Judas killed himself shortly after the betrayl



http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/judas_better_if_he_had_not_been_born_7901.msg92063.html#msg92063
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 08:45:12 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 08:42:02 PM »
Yes, it would have been better for Judas had he been able to stay in the spirit realm with God, rather than perform the role for which he was chosen.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 09:36:03 PM »
The way I see hell/hades is a kingdom that men create for themselves. So Judas being full of guilt, as he confessed that he spilled innocent blood, had to go to his own place and suffer the shame of having crucified an innocent man.

It is not sure whether judas believed Jesus to be the Son of God. From the scriptures my personal opinion is that Judas saw Jesus simply as an innocent man, and so in his own hell, he suffers for betraying innocent blood, not knowing that Jesus is his saviour.

With this scenario it means it is impossible to figure out whether Judas has repented and has been reconciled, or is still in his hell.

One title for Judas is the son of perdition, which means that Judas could be in hell for such a long time that it begins to destroy him. But the scriptures show that in rev 20 all in hell will be forced out to face God and the scriptures also say that all in the earth and under the earth will bow their knee confess Jesus as lord.


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 07:31:04 PM »
The simple view, for me, is that the price of Judas' treachery exacted in the lake of fire will be very high. As Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, it is better to enter heaven maimed than to enter "gehenna fire" whole. Rather than dance around the symbolism of these things I prefer to take them as face value expressions of the actual extremities of God's wrath upon the transgressors who earn them. The idea however, that this expression logically extends to "torment forever" does not work for me because by the logic of most eternal torment teachers this fate awaits every person who rejects this stilted "gospel" (supposed to be good news not bad news of eternal torture for almost all). By this logic, it would be better if almost everyone had "never been born"- because according to most ET teachers almost everyone will spent eternity in "hell".

My view of the lake of fire and "gehenna fire" and "eternal (aionian pur) fire" is that they are all expressions of the experience of being thrust into "unapproachable light" and the "consuming fire" of God's presence until the knee bows and the toungue confesses(Phil 2:10) and the adversaries are subjected(1 Cor 15:28) and God becomes all in all.

I think this experience can be extremely painful in some spiritual way we cannot see yet.
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Offline Aleax

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 12:10:26 AM »
I've read "better never been born" was a common hyperbole and a proverbial figure of speech among Hebrew people. I do not remember the source though.
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Offline Aleax

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 12:23:54 AM »
Then there's also what Judas would be remembered of. For eons, he would be the man who betrayed Jesus, first and foremost. His name is almost a universal synonym for "traitor". Probably not the most preferrable way to go down in chronicles.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 12:26:59 AM by Aleax »
Behold, I make a few things new.

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Offline lomarah

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 02:35:09 AM »
I take it to mean the "woe" he had to endure after he betrayed Jesus, at least in part.. look how consumed he was with guilt, so much so that he couldn't even bear to go on.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 05:39:29 AM »
I think all those things have merit, but I've also heard this one too;  ""better never been born" was a common hyperbole and a proverbial figure of speech among Hebrew people."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 11:29:36 AM »
Are there crimes one can commit that are so horrific that it would have been best if they hadn't been born?  I would think most people would say yes, without making any reference towards eternal hellfire.  I believe it's a figure of speech speaking about the horrible nature of Judas' action.  To read anything more into it than that I believe to be short sighted at best.

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 03:26:15 PM »
    ....I'm reminded of Job and one of the prophets that said,'cursed be the day that I was born,O'that I had never seen the light of day"  I know,I myself

  at different times throughout my slife,have wished that I had never been born..Your in a pretty painful place. to feel that way,people commit

   suicide daily to try and escaper that torment.    Men will seek death and will not find it

Offline lomarah

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 03:28:44 PM »
Yes, exactly!  :thumbsup:
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Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 07:24:24 PM »
   I will tell you a sacred secret......He will remove the shame from off the face ofHis people..JC  was right,many,through no choice of their own

  were given over to negative examples for our learning...just as each of us fill up the negative of the old man/corruptible image.So these brothers also

  have served God's purpose.   YOU CAN DO NOTHING OF YOURSELF..this is a SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE IN FORCE WITH BOTH THE HOLY AND VILE

  IT IS THE IMAGE OF BOTH THESE OPPOSITE SPIRITS THAT IS MANIFESTED THROUGH MAN'S FLESH....and most all are a GOOD/EVIL MIX

   He kept Jesus perfect with no sin entering by angelic troops,for HIS OWN HOLY PURPOSE SO THAT HE WOULD NOT BE DECEIVED

  NONE OF US CAN DO NOTHING OF OURSELF...GOOD OR EVIL  LESS A SEED...PRODUCING ROOT/TARE IS SOWN......theyn grow togather til harvest

   when He comes He will remove all things that cause sin...seperate us from it.


   SIN/EVIL IS VERY PAINFUL LESSON  IN  ALL OUR EXPIERANCE..and the death that results is a horrible thing for man to undergo.The increasing of

sin/lawlessness in the world multiplies greif and mourning,suffering.

   Job 41;8    If you lay a hand on him,YOU WILL REMEMBER THE STRUGGLE AND NEVER DO IT AGAIN!..ANY HOPE OF SUBDUEING HIM IS FALSE

THE MERE SIGHT OF HIM IS OVERPOWERING......NOTHING ON EARTH IS HIS EQUAL-A CREATURE WITHOUT FEAR...

   He looks down on all that are haughty...HE IS KING OVER ALL THAT ARE PROUD.......and if you should think that Father was only speaking of a material

  beast here,think again.

   Father chastises all He receives as sons.......


   IS LOVE COMPLETE WITHOUT AN ASPECT OF COMPASSION?  WHO DESERVES COMPASSION/MERCY BUT THOSE WHO SUFFER....

  I TELL YOU WE HAD TO SUFFER TO DEVELOPE COMPASSION AND MERCY....AND EVIL WAS NECESSARY TO BRING ABOUT SUFFERING...

  IT IS A PART OF HIS PERFECTING OF LOVE IN MANKIND/CHILDREN OF GOD

  the whole creation serves HIS PURPOSE,,,even the evil...and when His work is finished..evil will serve no purpose

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 01:17:03 AM »
Quote
Mat 26:24 KJV

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:
but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Greetings all,

My online persona is Agent X. I am a Christian studying Universalism and I am finding a lot of interesting perspectives.
Many questions I have held within are being answered, but new questions are coming up.

One such question is what did Jesus mean by this statement?

"it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Would this not infer that he (Judas) was about to encounter something so terrifying, so great in it's evil that he would have been better off to never exist?
I always interpreted this passage to mean that Judas was about to be spending an eternity in hellfire.

Why else would it be better to have never have been born, then spend all eternity in anguish and torment?


Mat 26:24  the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him if that man had not been born.'
Mat 26:25  And Judas--he who delivered him up--answering said, `Is it I, Rabbi?' He saith to him, `Thou hast said.'

Mat 13:35  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

When we read these words it is not intended for a history study, it is for each and everyone of us as followers today, each of us can be in the position of "that man had not been born," when ever we surrender, deliver up, betray Jesus in our word or deed. I certainly have felt that way, that I had never been born, when I have fallen. Judas did what his appointed task was (John 13:18-27)
Joh 13:20  verily, verily, I say to you, he who is receiving whomsoever I may send, doth receive me; and he who is receiving me, doth receive Him who sent me.'
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2011, 07:50:18 PM »
I don't understand why the disciples were clueless that it was Judas who betrayed Jesus.

Jesus clearly says it is he who I break sop with.

Perhaps they were just as us, who often deny and overlook the fact that perhaps our fellow teacher disciple is actually a wolf in sheeps clothing, and prefer to ignore that facts presented and ignore the messages given by God.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2011, 11:17:41 PM »
Yes, all of us were lowered into this condition to "have an experience of evil".  However, some have been chosen for an even more difficult path in this life,  as He created vessels of both honor and dishonor.  All to suit His purposes here.     However, All to be restored at the consummation of the ages.

Quoting Dora Van Assen,   "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Rom.8,20-21.CCV Please note that God has given every man HOPE. There is always hope for everyone no matter how bound in sin and degradation. He is lowered into this death realm in EXPECTATION of something even better than what he had before.   http://www.godfire.net/kennedy/dora_van_assen_exact_immage.htm


"If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. (This spiritual body is already there before there could even be a soulish body. It takes spirit and body to produce a soul.) "Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, became a living soul; the last Adam a vivifying spirit. But not first the spiritual but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 1 Cor.15,45-46. As we have already stated, because a veil has been cast over the face of all men, we are not able to remember or comprehend with our natural mind that we were once spiritual beings. This is one of the many secrets that the Holy Spirit is revealing to us in this hour. Thus we can only go back in memory to when we were two or three years old. We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal. But that does not in any way disqualify the fact that we did exist! The very fact that we are alive in this natural realm proves that we once were in our mother's womb. And now that we have been born of the Spirit, we can know that we came out from God! Isa.25,7-8: Romans 11, 36.  (dora_van_assen_exact_immage)

Paul is very clear and quite specific in 1Cor.15:45-46 that " The first man, Adam, became a living soul" and that the last Adam a vivifing spirit. FIRST the natural then...
If this doctrine/theory that man was lowered from a spirit to human form to experience sin, why is it not made as clear and plain in the Bible? Its about as clear as hell being a place of eternal torment for sinners, but eternal torment it is not established in the first book of the Bible, for the first sinners  or in any valid translations. The verses in Isa. and Romans do not explain the doctrine/theory for me. And where do we find "because a veil has been cast over the face of all men," and "We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal."?
I had recieved this teaching many years ago as I read and followed Bro. Eby's work, I believed it without even doubt, it sounded right and I liked it. The only thing wrong is that Paul is quite clear, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul/breathing creature."
 
Isa 25:7  And swallowed up hath He in this mountain The face of the wrapping that is wrapped over all the peoples, And of the covering that is spread over all the nations.
Isa 25:8  He hath swallowed up death in victory, And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off all faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken.
Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 12:00:41 AM »
I'd like to lob out a couple thougts on this thread if you don't mind.  One is, I personally think Judas was convinced that Jesus was going to literally take the throne back from the Romans.  If you keep this story in the context of the day, the Jews avidly despised the Roman authorities and Jesus spoke much about ruling and reigning.  In fact, I believe all of the disciples felt Jesus was going to literally take the throne.  Even after his resurrection, they inquired of him as to when he was going to do that.  So . . .when Judas put two and two together, I think he felt he was going to cause Jesus to force his hand . . . I think Judas thought that if he turned Jesus in, that Jesus would take the opportunity to call fire down from heaven and consume all of his enemies and once the Romans were burned up, Jesus would then be at the helm of Israel as a nation.  But, like all the other disciples, Judas didn't realize that Jesus was speaking of a spiritual kingdom, not a naturall one.  But by the time Judas did realize Jesus wasn't going to call fire down, it was to late and they killed Jesus.  I don't think Judas expected Jesus to be murdered.  I think "that's" what put him over the edge of his sanity.  When he saw them kill Jesus, he knew that "he" was the kingpin that got Jesus killed.  Once the plan fell apart, suicide was the only option left and it was also the result of one who wished they were never born.  To take your own life is to despise the day of your birth.

As for the natural coming and then the spiritual . . .I think we're sorta over stepping the order of some things.  For one, Genesis speaks about the order of creation in that first it was the heavens and then it was the earth that was created.  I think Paul is talking about a different order in that we are not us until our spirit resides in a body to manifest our existance.  So . . .natural comes first . . .you need to be alive on this earth for your spirit to then be rebirthed into the nature of the creator.  My natural temple is made, then my spirit takes up residence in that temple as it becomes one with His spirit through relationship with the Father.

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 05:57:27 PM »
Thank you all for the posts and information.

This has been quite the learning experience and honestly it is incredible.


I felt for so long that there was something wrong with my faith. I knew that Jesus was the source of the truth but things didn't make sense in certain areas.

So my journey to find the truth has led me here and I am seeing that universal reconciliation makes a lot of sense.
I wasn't aware that my beliefs stemmed from an "Arminian - Free Will" perspective until I read a lot of the articles on this site and researched it for myself further.

I had a pretty heated conversation with my parents about this topic and lo-and behold I am apparantly deceived by the hand of Lucifer, or something like that.
The sad thing is I can see where they are coming from because I 'believed' as they do. The idea that God was doing justice by condemning sinners to an eternal hell because it was their 'choice'. But what started this search for me was a long held question deep inside of my soul.

What about those that were not born as a Jew in the Law of Moses days, or those who were fortunate enough to not only HEAR the Gospel, but ACCEPT what they HEARD about the Gospel. This was very confusing because that meant billions upon billions of souls who never asked to be created were burning in an eternal hell for not being in the right place at the right time.

But then Romans 1:20- is referenced - "that those who are without have the evidence of God and 'salvation' in the creation around them", but man being wicked ignored the creation and deserves to spend eternity in hellfire.....

Well this belief was not good enough for me any longer.

I can go into great detail about the conversation I had but that is perhaps for another time. I just felt the need to share some thoughts with you all about this.


I still feel as though the question hasn't been fully answered regarding Matthew 26:24... Perhaps it is one of those "had to have been there in the days of Israel to fully understand" type of sayings. People have said its like a proverb to describe the woe about to come onto Judas, others have had other explanations. The proverb does seem to fit considering both Job, and Solomon had similar words, but the timing and wording still seems to leave the door open to a fog.

Why would Jesus, God in the flesh say such a thing as "but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born"?

This has been a question I have been wrestiling with the past few days.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.




Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 06:17:57 PM »
Lets add this tidbit of information. Jesus only spoke in parables....Mat_13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2011, 07:46:30 PM »
Parables doesn't mean inaccessible truths, otherwise Jesus has wasted his time.

There is truth to be found.

Now I have found something interesting and controversial, which might explain the woe unto Judas. It is a long thing to explain though and brings a lot of other questions, but I will try to reveal someday.


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2011, 08:15:20 PM »
Parables doesn't mean inaccessible truths, otherwise Jesus has wasted his time.

There is truth to be found.

Now I have found something interesting and controversial, which might explain the woe unto Judas. It is a long thing to explain though and brings a lot of other questions, but I will try to reveal someday.

Do not remember posting that parables were not truth, parables are truths.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2011, 08:19:06 PM »
Ok just clarifying. Just when you said only, it seemed as if parables were insignificant. Just want to say they are significant.
 :2c:

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 26:24
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2011, 09:46:19 PM »
....though satan entered Judas he passed out his intestines.....like all gi ants