Author Topic: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment  (Read 4251 times)

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Offline claypot

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 03:53:56 AM »
:cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.

And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My  :2c:

Card, how you do it (make old things so new) is beyond me but I'm thanking God for you!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 07:37:30 PM »
I so see things in a similar fashion as you, Nathan and I see something, through a glass darkly, but I see something that you probably do too but I'd like your input on it. I don't stop at seeing the sheep and goats as representing something within me, I don't stop at all things Scriptural representing aspects of who I and all humans are. I see Jesus as representing the Holy spiritual aspect of my essence.

Do you see this?

2 big questions are doing somthing in me. What is God? What is Jesus?

cp

Long time no see!!  Glad to see you out and about again.  I would say that beings we are images made after the Father that yeah, there are definitely many resemblances between our essence and the Father's nature. 

What is God and what is Jesus . . .and you left one out  .what is the HS.  For me  . . THEY are God, manifesting in Fathership, sonship and the breath of life, God is Christ, Jesus is God, if you've SEEN Jesus, you've seen the Father because they are one . . .the Spirit breathes the essences of God into all of us.  Like an egg, like man himself . . .you can't separate one from the others without affecting the continuity of the whole.

Offline claypot

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2011, 03:17:36 AM »
I hear ya Nathan and I missed all of you here. Time just gets away from a person.

I don't ask in any disrespectful way at all when I ask the two questions. I am seeing God as all that makes us what we are. Really, what is not God? I'm not going for mystical here or new age verbage. What is not God? What is not made up of something of God? Is there any 'material', spiritual or physical, that is not of God? And if 'of God' is that not God, at least in a limited sense?

Adam is a physical person yet represents so much more. Is Jesus any different in this context? Hmmmmmmm.

I'm just thinking out loud here and hoping for some helpful input.

If I can define God, even in my own limited way, then I can understand my role in His program, even if in some limited way. It is not us and God or me and Hitler or us and them. To me it is God, period. And I am an extension of Him, created for His glory and pleasure.

Got to run.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2011, 08:01:54 AM »
Amen to that . . . it falls in line with "the kingdom of heaven is IN YOU . . ."  Emanuel . . .God with us . . .there are so many levels to this that there really isn't just "one" answer.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2011, 10:13:36 PM »
Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible
 
Matt. 25:46: Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word (aionion)
aionios -- it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and an ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3)--strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite." The Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible (Catholic Bible Dictionary), p. 693
 
ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word
olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gn. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus, me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" (Gn. 6:4, etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. Dr. F.W. Farrar, The Eternal Hope, p. 198
 
That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant "endless," and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd.
Dr. F.W. Farrar, Mercy and Judgment, p. 378
 
Since
aion meant "age," aionios means, properly, "belonging to an age," or "age-long," and anyone who asserts that it must mean "endless" defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant "eternity," which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-- aionios could still mean only "belonging to eternity" and not "lasting through it." Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels
 
There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.
(Vol. III, p. 369) Eternal, everlasting--nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come into the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios  which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. IV, p. 643
 
Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word
aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14). Lange's Commentary American Edition, Vol. V, p. 48
 
On Ecclesiastes 1:4. The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words,
aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration. Dr. MacKnight
 
I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, "forever," "eternal," "everlasting," shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense when applied to punishment put no forced interpretation upon them.
The Parkhurst Lexicon
 
Olam (aeon) seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time.
G. Campbell Morgan, God's Methods With Men, pp. 185-186
 
Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end.
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII, p. 96
 
Under the instruction of those great teachers, many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." Many more church historians could be quoted with similar observations.
Philippson, Israel Religionslehre (11:255)
 
The Rabbi teach no eternity of hell torments; even the greatest sinners were punished for generations.
Dr. Alford Plumer, An Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, pp. 351-352
 
It is often pointed out that "eternal"
(aionios) in "eternal punishment" must have the same meaning as in "eternal life." No doubt, but that does not give us the right to say that "eternal" in both cases means "endless." Dr. Edward Plumptre (Eschatologist)
 
I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited.
The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 15, p. 485
 
It is possible that "aeonian" may denote merely indefinite duration without the connotation of never ending.
G. T. Stevenson, Time and Eternity
 
(Page 63) Since, as we have seen, the noun
aion refers to a period of time, it appears very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term.
(Page 72) In 1 Cor. 15:22-29 the inspired apostle to the Gentiles transports his readers' thoughts far into the future, beyond the furthest point envisaged elsewhere in holy writ. After outlining the triumph of the Son of God in bringing all creation under His benign control, Paul sets forth the consummation of the divine plan of the ages in four simple, yet infinitely profound words, "God all in all." This is our God, purposeful, wise, loving, and almighty, His Son our Lord a triumphant Savior, Who destroys His enemies by making them friends. Jeremy Taylor, author of Systematic Hellology, which advocates the common belief in eternal torment, later writes a modified view in Jeremy Taylor's Works, Vol. III, p. 43.
 
Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting . . . . "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period.
Dr. Nigel Turner, Christian Words, p. 457
 
All the way through, it is never feasible to understand
aionios as everlasting. Dr. (Prof.) Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament, Vol. IV
 
(Page 59) The adjective
aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting." aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Out of the 150 instances in the LXX (Septuagint), four-fifths imply limited duration.
(Page 291, about 2 Tim. 1:9) "Before the world began" (pro chronon aionion) Lit. Before eternal times. If it is insisted that aionion means everlasting, this statement is absurd. It is impossible that anything should take place before everlasting times. Charles H. Welch, editor of The Berean Expositor, wrote in An Alphabetical Analysis, Vol. I
 
(Page 52) What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation.
(Page 279) Eternity is not a Biblical theme.
Dr. R.F. Weymouth, The New Testament in Modern Speech, p. 657
 
Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 07:56:26 AM »
I found this explanation of Matthew 25:46:  http://www.tentmaker.org/books/proof_texts_on_endless_punishment.html#everlasting_punishment

Click on everlasting punishment.

It is written in a book called "Proof Texts of Endless Punishment, Examined and Explained." 

It was published in 1862 and written by D.P. Livermore.

I'm wondering if some of you might look it over and comment on the author's explanation.  I'm curious if it still stands the "test of time" in the view of those who are more researched that I am on the subject.  I thought it was quite good.  How would you anticipate an ECT person to counter-argue?

Here is a little excerpt:

Quote
First, The different classes of individuals referred to in the text, are acquitted and condemned on account of their Works, and therefore the subject cannot refer to the immortal world; for heaven is not to be attained by good works! Eternal life is the pure, free and unpurchased gift of God, and is not of works of righteousness that we have done, lest any man should boast!

The second important consideration to which we invite the reader's attention, is, that the original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.

Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.

Again: The word rendered everlasting (aionios) is not the same word as is translated endless, and therefore the doctrine of endless punishment is not taught in the passage, under consideration. The word endless, from akatalutos, occurs but once in the Bible, Heb. 7:16. "After the power of an endless life."

Offline battle axe

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 08:03:03 AM »
HI all just joined today so im throwing myself in at the deep end really  :eek:

Having pretty much read all the posts im worried if I take on all the inward implications literaully I will become self obsessed.  The nations are the nations arent they?  When I read a post guessing the nations as been in Abrahamn or something aren't we pushing it a bit far?  I do think there are outward literaul things in scripture also surely?   Is the sun the sun?  Is the stars something within us too?  Could there be a trip up if we saw all things as inner metaphors?  Or a type of this or that?  We could go on & on but I rejoice knowing that not only is the inward things what matter but also things outside of me making an impression on me.  I can find much joy in taking in Gods nature & creation,  In doing unto him by helping the poor & needy, Its a mysterious thing but as he feeds us as the bread of life  the living word to us,  he longs to see us stretch out our hand wide to the needy, which comes as if wearing a mask & Jesus is behind the need in human suffering waiting for his servants who claim to love him fufilling the ultimae love in return to our daily bread.   These are healthy outward things looking out of ourself to others needs,  I see these as God's genius ways of freeing mankind from himself all at the same time, almost like killing 2 birds with one stone?  I prefer to think of such many outward things this way & it feels right in my heart too,  I think its silly to take everything as a metaphor?  When are we allowed to accept something at face value?   

Turning everything into spiritual metaphors pointing to the inward meanings makes me look inwardly in over excess when I need to be looking OUT of me afterall I am so corrupt contrary to the spirit naturally nothing is a better medicine just accepting the water gets here somewhere but I completley dont know how? Simple stupid & let the waters flow out of me

Hope I made some sense on just a general tendancy nothing more?  Hope was worth throwing in the mixer  :dontknow:
If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

Offline lomarah

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2013, 06:07:22 PM »
Hey battle. :)

I have found that it's both, in my experience. The clincher is waiting on God to reveal these things to me rather than making them up in my own brain (which is never smart and always wrong lol). The more I see the more I truly believe that everything in the law is an example for us for what happens in spirit. (Types and shadows.) The scriptures (and even every aspect of our lives) has been so meticulously planned that it completely blows my mind. He's amazing!!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.