Author Topic: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment  (Read 6828 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« on: December 01, 2010, 02:30:10 AM »
Mat. 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Offline Aleax

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 03:25:04 PM »
Martin Zender's take on Matthew 25.

---

Yes, Matthew 25:31-46 does ring a bell. It should, seeing as how I've studied the passage for fifteen years. This is a judgment of nations, not individuals, a fact plainly stated in verse 42. Thus, this is not the general judgment of mankind, as you suppose. This judging takes place at the inauguration of the thousand-year kingdom. The majority of mankind are not even alive at this judging, for scripture says that, "the rest of the dead" (the unbelieving dead of all time) "do not live until the thousand years should be finished" (Rev. 20:5).

If this is the separation of all people into either heaven or hell, tell me: What is the criteria for judging? Is it faith in Jesus? Is it belief in the gospel? Reliance on the cross? No. The only criteria is: How did the nation being judged treat the favored nation Israel? Did they feed Israel when it was hungry? Give it a drink when it was thirsty? This judgment, which takes place in the Kidron Valley (the Valley of Jehoshaphat) upon Christ's return, does nothing more than separate nations that helped Israel (sheep nations) from those that ignored her (goat nations), and determines their placement during the millennium.

The "everlasting punishment" of the King James Version is actually "chastening eonian" in the Greek. ("Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek aion, meaning "eon," which always has to do with time.) The "life eternal" is correctly translated "life eonian." This passage has nothing to do with where people will spend eternity. The eon in question is the thousand-year kingdom, and the "people" are nations. Those nations that helped Israel will enjoy abundant life during that eon, probably near Jerusalem. Those nations that didn't will be placed in the outer reaches of the kingdom and will certainly suffer more than the sheep nations. This is the "fire eonian" of verse 41. Since Christ is said to rule these nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:27), it is evident that these nations are neither consumed nor writhing in literal flame. Thus, the flame of this context is a figure of speech for suffering.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM »
Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 06:05:40 PM »
Yes Nathan  :icon_flower:

For mine I see the Natural witnessing the Spiritual- as Within the Natural the Lord using the example of the Pharisses as Goats  , The purpose is ALWAYS the SPIRIUAL intent teaching the Inward Man :icon_joker:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 06:54:12 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen Nathan......excellent way to explain it  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 12:18:26 AM »
I have seen this verse with a different perspective, I have not seen this view before, so it is very new.

Ok I used to think this must be talking about the lake of fire, where all will be judged according to their works, and the bad go into the lake of fire, prepared for his angels. But the verse talks about judging nations and not individuals. After reading many scriptures there is evidence that in the future God will pour out his wrath on disobedient nations and those who are faithfull will be spared, but those who have done evil will suffer the judgment of the most high. Now the new perspective is that the fire prepared for the devl and his angels is located upon the earth  :mshock: This means that the devil and his angels will be among disobedient humanity at the end, the red dragon cast out of heavenly places in chapter 12, Isiah talks about the devils city Tyrus being invaded by God and destroyed and the leviathian the serpent will be punished by God.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 06:47:22 AM »
Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »
YLTRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

"and reign with Christ"
If you look up the Greek for reign you find that it's aorist tense. It doesn't give past, future or present tense information....
Maybe that's a piece of the puzzle you are looking for?


Tense-Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time.
  There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians.  The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist").  The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only.  The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.
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John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »
Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation.  Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign.  I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle.  Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ.  To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.

"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000.  And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10.  The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ.  The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son.  And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2011, 01:28:27 AM »
Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation.  Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign.  I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle.  Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ.  To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.

"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000.  And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10.  The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ.  The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son.  And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.

I have been good at unintentionally opening those lately.   :bigGrin:  I must admit one of my bigger weaknesses in my Biblical knowledge is anything to do with "end times" "1000 year reign" etc.  Your thoughts intrigue me because I have been taught such literal interpretations for years about these portions of scripture.  But, we see that so many times throughout the Bible that most stories, imagery seems to be symbolic...with people hearing without understanding.

I do wonder outloud...without trying to change the subject or redirect I am curious about your thoughts on this.  What is the imagery of satan being bound during that 1000 years then let loosed again for a short time? 

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2011, 02:24:57 AM »
You're making this way too fun for me!! First off . . . please keep in mind that what I share is simply what I see "from where I'm at" in Christ.  It's all about perspectives.  It's the old principle of "Seek and you shall find . . ."  If I look for a literal application, then that's what I'll see.  And that's what I've done for years.  I live in a natural realm and taking things literally to my natural environment was just how it was.  In growing up, we'd scoff at people that didn't believe the things we saw as so obvious that you had to be in total denial to see it any other way than how "we" saw it.  That mindset is still alive and well.

But what caused me to loosen my grip on literal applications was the constant calling from higher places than my mind could embrace.  As I read Scripture, it became clear that whenever there was a change in spiritual climate, whenever a revelation was given, a new thing was revealed, it was in a higher place.  The "upper" room.  The mountain where God gave Moses instruction for carrying out the law.  The "mount" of transfiguration.  The cross itself is elevated above the ground . . .in the book of Revelation where John heard a voice say "come up here".  Did the disciples really have to be in an upper room for the Holy Spirit to be poured out?  Did it really have to be in an elevated place where Jesus revealed his true form and nature to the disciples?  And if John was already in the spirit on the Lord's day when the Revelation of Jesus was poured out on him . . .why then was he still being called to "come up here?"

When Peter saw the sheet being lowered from heaven . . .he was asleep on a rooftop.  When the crowds "in the house" were so great that the guy on the stretcher had to be lowered "from above"  . . .it goes on and on.  So the pattern then snaps in with the call to us to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh . . .which fits with the passage that states "flesh profiteth nothing"  So over the last several years, I've yielded to the process of "de'construction in my religious system and while yielding to that, I then yielded to His "re"construction of his true nature in me.  And as a result, the old passed away and everything became as new.

I've taught on the book of Revelation three times in my minsitry.  The first time was by the traditional understanding, the second was from a tape series from a guy named Randall Worley by which I transcribed all 34 tapes word-for-word.  But at about the 5th or 6th tape I started adding comments alongside of what he was saying because I was beginning to see for myself the things he was saying.

The third time I taught on it, I just picked up the Scritpure and we went through it verse by verse, but this time, everything was from a dimensional perspective rather than a traditional or a literal one and it put a completely different message and meaning in every word.  It took us about 7 months to get through it on my first trip.  It took 5 years to get through it on the last two . . .they were back to back.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2011, 02:44:22 AM »
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.

Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature.  It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life.  The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places.  The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us.  Jesus "is" the ascended place.  He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.

The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal.  The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles.  Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet.  This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan.  In the spirit, it's all finished.  But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.

Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive.  But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day.  It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ. 

So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time.  But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season.  I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.

Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons. 

Make any sense??

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 06:09:05 AM »
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.

Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature.  It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life.  The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places.  The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us.  Jesus "is" the ascended place.  He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.

The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal.  The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles.  Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet.  This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan.  In the spirit, it's all finished.  But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.

Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive.  But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day.  It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ. 

So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time.  But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season.  I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.

Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons. 

Make any sense??

Absolutely.  This speaks well with my spirit.  It's certainly the battle fought within me.  It seems to be mostly independant of circumstances and a near constant raging battle.  I have told my wife I get exhausted by it from time to time...then I enter the Lord's rest.  It seems like when I just can't take any more of it and I feel myself cracking...I am given that rest...I regroup and it begins again.  My hope is this battle gets easier.  It seems my spirit wins over my flesh more days than not.  But, on the days when my flesh wins...I have a tough time rebounding.  Guilt is a problem for me and it slows my growth.  Anyways, thank you for that.  I spoke well to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 06:26:42 AM »
You're not alone in this battle of flesh and spirit.  We all have that going on inside us.  Paul had it and he even prayed that God would deliver him from the thorns in his flesh and once again the kindom principles come in to play in such a way our minds can not comprehend. 

I'm a strong advocate for the fact that our righteousness isn't something we can acheive through our works or labors.  Whether I'm successful in my struggles or not is not what makes me more or less righteous.  I lay it all down, I lay down the struggle, I lay down the whole thing.  Today, this is what I am . . .I fail at this and I succeed at that . . .the truth is, when we spend our energies on our struggles, that takes away our attention from exercising our dominion in other areas.  We become so SELFconscious of our issues that we are distracted from the fact that . . .HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.

Me overcoming my struggles is not what God rewards me for . . .but me embracing the fact that his grace is more sufficient than my abilities . .now "that's" something worth hanging on to.  The more I embrace his grace, the more his grace abounds in me and the less I allow the guilt to be my guide and believe it or not, inevidibly, the less I give in to those temptations that were once such a stronghold in certain areas of my life.

The more the adversary in us can redirect our attention from who we truly are in Christ, the more control, the more bondage we find ourselves in, and the less we are able to manifest his power into other people's lives around us.  That's why it's so important to pursue the things of the spirt adn not of the flesh.  SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM . . .that's becoming a battle cry with me lately.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 06:39:40 AM »
Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation.  Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign.  I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle.  Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ.  To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.

"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000.  And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10.  The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ.  The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son.  And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.

 :cloud9:  I'm with you..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
You're not alone in this battle of flesh and spirit.  We all have that going on inside us.  Paul had it and he even prayed that God would deliver him from the thorns in his flesh and once again the kindom principles come in to play in such a way our minds can not comprehend. 

I'm a strong advocate for the fact that our righteousness isn't something we can acheive through our works or labors.  Whether I'm successful in my struggles or not is not what makes me more or less righteous.  I lay it all down, I lay down the struggle, I lay down the whole thing.  Today, this is what I am . . .I fail at this and I succeed at that . . .the truth is, when we spend our energies on our struggles, that takes away our attention from exercising our dominion in other areas.  We become so SELFconscious of our issues that we are distracted from the fact that . . .HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.

Me overcoming my struggles is not what God rewards me for . . .but me embracing the fact that his grace is more sufficient than my abilities . .now "that's" something worth hanging on to.  The more I embrace his grace, the more his grace abounds in me and the less I allow the guilt to be my guide and believe it or not, inevidibly, the less I give in to those temptations that were once such a stronghold in certain areas of my life.

The more the adversary in us can redirect our attention from who we truly are in Christ, the more control, the more bondage we find ourselves in, and the less we are able to manifest his power into other people's lives around us.  That's why it's so important to pursue the things of the spirt adn not of the flesh.  SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM . . .that's becoming a battle cry with me lately.

Thank you for that.  Then I think we have pinpointed an area in which I need to grow.  I know there is a part of me that still feels like I need to be "good enough".  The fact is I will never be good enough.  I need to walk in his grace daily and hold firm to the truth which is I am a child of God.  Some days I do this better than others.  What I do know is the guilt is bondage and with that brings forth all sorts of unhealthy compensations in my life.  It certainly distracts me, discourages me, and when it is full grown will lead me away from relationship with Christ.

I will be praying for growth in this area of my walk.  I ask any willing party to remember me in their prayers as well.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2011, 07:53:18 PM »
 :cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.

And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2011, 08:00:28 PM »
:cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.

And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My  :2c:

Thank you for that.  I do have a head understanding of what you are saying.  It needs to go from my head to my heart.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 08:29:42 PM »
 :cloud9: In time it will  :happygrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

pollypinks

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 10:43:26 PM »
Rewards in the Kingdom of heaven are given to those who serve without thought of reward.  There is no hint of merit here, for God gives out of grace, not debt.  Footnotes from NIV.

whyiloveitaly.com

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 12:03:53 PM »
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.

Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature.  It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life.  The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places.  The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us.  Jesus "is" the ascended place.  He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.

The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal.  The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles.  Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet.  This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan.  In the spirit, it's all finished.  But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.

Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive.  But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day.  It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ. 

So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time.  But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season.  I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.

Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons. 

Make any sense??

I enjoyed reading all your posts here, Nathan. Thank you!  :bigGrin:
I also agree that the battle is within us. Just as you mentioned, the people were thinking about the physical temple, but Jesus was referring to Himself.
The Son of God and the son of perdition are at work in us now. Before Christ came, we saw only Adam 1 at work, destroying, killing, stealing within.
But since Calvary, Adam 1 has an enemy which continually puts bruises his head, and that is Adam 2, or Christ Himself.
Every man has the Seed of Christ now; just as we were made partakers of the flesh, so we are now also partakers of the heavenly.
The "battle" aisi, is to allow our New Nature, our New Adam, to manifest and bloom within us. And if we allow Him to bloom, we will see the fruits come forth: love, peace, longsuffering (patience), kindness, meekness, humility, joy, tolerance, etc.

So all mankind has been "put" into the New Adam, and the Old Adam must die, even though it is already dead. (as mentioned in Revelation, the "beast" who was, and is not, and yet is.")  The Old Adam was; now it is not (because it was replaced by Jesus Christ, or Adam 2), and yet it is, because it has not been fully replaced or "taken out of the way."

I just felt led to write this... hope it helps!..

Blessings!
brian

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 12:51:44 AM »
Don't hesitate with that man, you are talking on angels wings . . .it's what gives us the ability to fly.  I like your take on Adam one and Adam 2 . . . that resonates.

nesto

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 03:50:11 AM »
The idea that the judgment in Matt 25 is nations is raising questions....

Nations are made up of individual people (collectively)...

How can this be a national judgment? SO a person from Ohio that didn't even think of Israel....how will this affect them?

Jesus does not represent Israel, but ALL MEN....so, when Jesus says that they didn't feed or clothe him....how can this mean Israelites?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 01:25:19 AM »
The idea that the judgment in Matt 25 is nations is raising questions....
 
Nations are made up of individual people (collectively)...
 
How can this be a national judgment? SO a person from Ohio that didn't even think of Israel....how will this affect them?
 
Jesus does not represent Israel, but ALL MEN....so, when Jesus says that they didn't feed or clothe him....how can this mean Israelites?
Indeed a little weird. But we very often see the averge man gets punished for the crimes of leadership. The prime example of that is the Pharao. All kind of plagues hit Egypt.
Who were affected most by those plagues? The small unimportant Egyptians. They starved because their food was destroyed. The Pharao was angry; but still lived in great luxery in his palace. Things haven't changed much since then. How many Americans even knew Iraq existed until Bush decided it was time for some slaying in the gulf area when he was playing golf?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline claypot

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Re: Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 03:50:26 AM »
I so see things in a similar fashion as you, Nathan and I see something, through a glass darkly, but I see something that you probably do too but I'd like your input on it. I don't stop at seeing the sheep and goats as representing something within me, I don't stop at all things Scriptural representing aspects of who I and all humans are. I see Jesus as representing the Holy spiritual aspect of my essence.

Do you see this?

2 big questions are doing somthing in me. What is God? What is Jesus?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.