Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved

Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment

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thinktank:
I have seen this verse with a different perspective, I have not seen this view before, so it is very new.

Ok I used to think this must be talking about the lake of fire, where all will be judged according to their works, and the bad go into the lake of fire, prepared for his angels. But the verse talks about judging nations and not individuals. After reading many scriptures there is evidence that in the future God will pour out his wrath on disobedient nations and those who are faithfull will be spared, but those who have done evil will suffer the judgment of the most high. Now the new perspective is that the fire prepared for the devl and his angels is located upon the earth  :mshock: This means that the devil and his angels will be among disobedient humanity at the end, the red dragon cast out of heavenly places in chapter 12, Isiah talks about the devils city Tyrus being invaded by God and destroyed and the leviathian the serpent will be punished by God.

shawn:

--- Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM ---Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

--- End quote ---

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

WhiteWings:
YLTRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

"and reign with Christ"
If you look up the Greek for reign you find that it's aorist tense. It doesn't give past, future or present tense information....
Maybe that's a piece of the puzzle you are looking for?

Tense-Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time.   There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians.  The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist").  The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only.  The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.

Nathan:

--- Quote from: shawn on January 15, 2011, 06:47:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM ---Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

--- End quote ---

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

--- End quote ---

Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation.  Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign.  I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle.  Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ.  To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.

"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000.  And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10.  The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ.  The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son.  And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.

shawn:

--- Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 12:56:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: shawn on January 15, 2011, 06:47:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM ---Lets try a kingdom application here.  Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to.  Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly". 

What is a nation within me?  Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore.  "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application.  The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.

He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us.  What makes up a kingdom if not nations?  What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me?  The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.

Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most?  The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out?  Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness?  I'm opting for the latter.

--- End quote ---

I always like your posts.  They always make me think.  I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign?  Are not all believers having their being seperated today?  Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit?  I believe so.  So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?

--- End quote ---

Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation.  Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign.  I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle.  Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ.  To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.

"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000.  And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10.  The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ.  The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son.  And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.

--- End quote ---

I have been good at unintentionally opening those lately.   :bigGrin:  I must admit one of my bigger weaknesses in my Biblical knowledge is anything to do with "end times" "1000 year reign" etc.  Your thoughts intrigue me because I have been taught such literal interpretations for years about these portions of scripture.  But, we see that so many times throughout the Bible that most stories, imagery seems to be symbolic...with people hearing without understanding.

I do wonder outloud...without trying to change the subject or redirect I am curious about your thoughts on this.  What is the imagery of satan being bound during that 1000 years then let loosed again for a short time? 

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