Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved

Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep, Goats, Everlasting Punishment

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I found this explanation of Matthew 25:46:  http://www.tentmaker.org/books/proof_texts_on_endless_punishment.html#everlasting_punishment

Click on everlasting punishment.

It is written in a book called "Proof Texts of Endless Punishment, Examined and Explained." 

It was published in 1862 and written by D.P. Livermore.

I'm wondering if some of you might look it over and comment on the author's explanation.  I'm curious if it still stands the "test of time" in the view of those who are more researched that I am on the subject.  I thought it was quite good.  How would you anticipate an ECT person to counter-argue?

Here is a little excerpt:

--- Quote ---First, The different classes of individuals referred to in the text, are acquitted and condemned on account of their Works, and therefore the subject cannot refer to the immortal world; for heaven is not to be attained by good works! Eternal life is the pure, free and unpurchased gift of God, and is not of works of righteousness that we have done, lest any man should boast!

The second important consideration to which we invite the reader's attention, is, that the original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.

Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.

Again: The word rendered everlasting (aionios) is not the same word as is translated endless, and therefore the doctrine of endless punishment is not taught in the passage, under consideration. The word endless, from akatalutos, occurs but once in the Bible, Heb. 7:16. "After the power of an endless life."
--- End quote ---

battle axe:
HI all just joined today so im throwing myself in at the deep end really  :eek:

Having pretty much read all the posts im worried if I take on all the inward implications literaully I will become self obsessed.  The nations are the nations arent they?  When I read a post guessing the nations as been in Abrahamn or something aren't we pushing it a bit far?  I do think there are outward literaul things in scripture also surely?   Is the sun the sun?  Is the stars something within us too?  Could there be a trip up if we saw all things as inner metaphors?  Or a type of this or that?  We could go on & on but I rejoice knowing that not only is the inward things what matter but also things outside of me making an impression on me.  I can find much joy in taking in Gods nature & creation,  In doing unto him by helping the poor & needy, Its a mysterious thing but as he feeds us as the bread of life  the living word to us,  he longs to see us stretch out our hand wide to the needy, which comes as if wearing a mask & Jesus is behind the need in human suffering waiting for his servants who claim to love him fufilling the ultimae love in return to our daily bread.   These are healthy outward things looking out of ourself to others needs,  I see these as God's genius ways of freeing mankind from himself all at the same time, almost like killing 2 birds with one stone?  I prefer to think of such many outward things this way & it feels right in my heart too,  I think its silly to take everything as a metaphor?  When are we allowed to accept something at face value?   

Turning everything into spiritual metaphors pointing to the inward meanings makes me look inwardly in over excess when I need to be looking OUT of me afterall I am so corrupt contrary to the spirit naturally nothing is a better medicine just accepting the water gets here somewhere but I completley dont know how? Simple stupid & let the waters flow out of me

Hope I made some sense on just a general tendancy nothing more?  Hope was worth throwing in the mixer  :dontknow:

Hey battle. :)

I have found that it's both, in my experience. The clincher is waiting on God to reveal these things to me rather than making them up in my own brain (which is never smart and always wrong lol). The more I see the more I truly believe that everything in the law is an example for us for what happens in spirit. (Types and shadows.) The scriptures (and even every aspect of our lives) has been so meticulously planned that it completely blows my mind. He's amazing!!

Sheep and goats.   

It is always going to come up when trying to prove ET, annihilation, and UR.

It seems that the sheep are quite pround of their sheepliness.

From the perspective of trying to prove your sectarian bend, how do you know you are not a goat?  We all fall short of actually "doing this unto the least of these".

In the end we serve up doctrine.  In the end what we give is the message of Christ.  Of the three sectarian interpretations, the one that makes most sense, is the one that we all goatishly go with.

Sheep and goats.  Anyone have a good online article for the UR interpretation.


 not an online article..but a personal 'beleif'........the sheep are all men....white..because of God's

 will/plan/Christ positive.  the goats are black..satans angels/demons.-negative.

  if a sheep overcome[the saints overcome] becomes a 'black' sheep=exhibits negative

 black characteristics/image of corrupt.

   Christ/light/white/sacred...man in God's image.........

   Jesus Christ has power and authority to change a black sheep unto a white sheep in

 this life..remove darkness..have sheep exhibit positive characteristics of light.

   some sheep serve as examples of light and some dark for learning of all[good/evil exercize.

    at end of exercize[all black sheep turned into white[prodigal's return home] exercize over

   all sheep with the shepherd..all sheep white....negative/black/goatimage no longer needed

 or used as teaching tool.

    transition of a black sheep to a white sheep.........if some darkness remain while in this life

 is a spotted sheep[spots and blemishes remain]

   sheep...man      goat-demon [Lev 17;7 Isaaih13;21  Lev 16;22]

   see Jacob/Israel and Laban dispute of flocks.......wages changed 10 times..Christ blood

redeemed all mankind..though your sins be as scarlet..yet they shall be white as snow....

see red cloth turn white..goat sent off to perish in wilderness and never enter the city.

     goats can survive and forage on briars thorns etc[cursed is the ground on account of you

 it shall bring up thorns and thistle's for you] sheep become entrapped of them and need

 grass/pasture[all flesh is grass=man=sheep] I will take away the stoney heart and give you

a heart of flesh

   all men are sheep...even the 'black sheep' of the family/prodigals...sheep can also be

lost sheep..and be found of their shepherd.  All shall pass under the rod of the Shepherd.

   Ezekiel 20;34   -44   I will take note of you as you pass under the rod..and I will bring

you into the bond of the covenant...I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me

[goats seperated=goat-shaped demons perish in wilderness..seperate the people=

 sheep have 'black/negative' contrast removed from them[delivered from the wicked one]

[resurrection of righteous/wicked

 wickedness removed...although I will bring them out of the land they were living[resurrection

   of the wicked] yet they will not enter the land of Israel[see resurrection/insurrection]

    thus that wicked generation[black goat shaped demons] shall perish in the wilderness

 and not enter the Holy city/ dark evil contrast removed..cloth turns scarlet/white


   there are wolves in sheep clothing..and sheep in wolves clothing.........

     SOS..the goat shepherdess.........she's dark...and is instructed by Him to graze her

 young 'goats' by the tents of the shepherds....He must remove her 'darkness'

seperate her from and deliver her from the wicked one.........why would you look upon

the shulamite as upon the dance f Mahanaim[two camps/camp of God/camp of the Holy city]

  kingdom of darkness/kingdom of light

  Come! take life's waters free! outside..are the darkness..enter in the sheepgate

that the Shepherd has opened and no-one can close.



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