Author Topic: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it  (Read 27082 times)

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2011, 05:01:49 PM »


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.
The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."

LOL

Give it up.
That wise. What you and beloved claim is against English (and Dutch) grammer rules. Don't believe me. Just ask someone that teaches English at a uni nearby.
You should make your case using Greek. Puntuation and spaces aren't inspired

Quote
It doesn't say 'sometime in the future.'  It says TODAY [you shall be with me in Paradise].
It depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.

The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver, paper, hats, clocks and tablecloths.
The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver paper, hats, clocks and tablecloths.
The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver, paper hats, clocks and tablecloths.

Eats shoots and leaves.
Eats, shoots and leaves.

"Goats cheese salad ingredients: lettuce, tomato, goats, cheese"

Little bit about me.
My interests include:
Cooking, dogs, music and sports.
---> Does the red comma only adds a pause?
---> No it isn't about hot dogs  :winkgrin:

 :Yeahright:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2011, 05:04:23 PM »
When Jesus opens the scroll, the Old Testament saints are already there as witnesses.


4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.  [Rev 5]





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gae-n0Pb7Q

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2011, 05:18:40 PM »
Quote from: ww
It depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is for you to lecture me on my native language?  :icon_king:

And, do you think I have no education in my native language?

I understand what you are saying.  But, you refuse to look at what I am saying.

You want to change one comma in the book to change a meaning to something you like better.

Why limit yourself to one comma?   Rewrite the whole book!

What the translators did in this case is entirely consistent with what they did in every other case.

They followed the rules of English.

They followed the meaning of the words and the meaning of the context.

Jesus is saying, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

If he meant to say something else, he would have said it.

Off topic--I also believe all the original translators were inspired.  They did what they did under inspiration of God.

I don't know how else they could have done it.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 05:23:58 PM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2011, 06:01:04 PM »
To take the message heavenly — isn't Jesus the Day ?


"In Me, you will be in paradise!"

Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2011, 06:35:05 PM »
Yep!   There He is, in the midst of the garden....

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2011, 06:43:19 PM »


Ahhh...
But this time — we're not hedged in!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2011, 06:55:13 PM »
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Mat 16:17]


"prevail against"

G2729
κατισχύω
katischuō
kat-is-khoo'-o
From G2596 and G2480; to overpower: - prevail (against).

The gates of hell have no strength against the ekklesia.  That means that we can go in and out at will.  The overcomers will preach, as Jesus did, to those in Hades, and lead them out.



Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.  Neh 9:27


Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2011, 07:15:36 PM »


Hmmm....
Sounds like a ladder!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2011, 07:39:21 PM »


Hmmm....
Sounds like a ladder!
:thumbsup:


 51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



[note: the commas are the same as in 'today you will be with me in Paradise'.]

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2011, 07:46:28 PM »


ascending and descending...Hmmm...

Sounds like water, clouds and rain!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2011, 07:47:10 PM »


There are just so many levels to this.  :HeartThrob:

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2011, 07:55:06 PM »


ascending and descending...Hmmm...

Sounds like water, clouds and rain!

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,[Heb 12:1]



25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.  Jude 1

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2011, 07:23:48 AM »
I saw another strong angel coming down out of heavens, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book which was open. (Rev 10:1-2)

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:18-23)


But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:7-16)


Oh Lord, my God, when I with awesome wonder, consider all the things Thy hands have made,
I see the stars, I hear the roaring thunder
Thy works through out the universe displayed
Then sings my soul, My Savior, God to Thee
How Great Thou Art!

The sun rises and the dew leaps into the wind, the mists of the morning, greeting the new day
The night falls and the stars of ten thousand galaxies fill the sky, bearing witness to the glory that transcends our understanding

"Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; When I made a cloud its garment And thick darkness its swaddling band, And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors, And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop'? "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place, That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
(Job 38:3-13)

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God........... And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
(Rom 8:18-34)



« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 07:41:45 AM by eaglesway »
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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #163 on: October 22, 2011, 03:39:09 PM »
Quote from: ww
It depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.
Do you have any idea how offensive it is for you to lecture me on my native language?  :icon_king:
You started lecturing me on your language. I just wrote the comma isn't there. I verify things. In this case it want that hard because the usage of the comma
in English and Dutch is very similar. Maybe exactly the say. (I didn't check every rule)
Besides of that I wrote about over two years ago: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic_support/soul_sleep_4791.msg49918.html#msg49918
I only had two options. Agree with you. With would mean you ask me to lie. Or to show artcles that were written by independant people?
Quote
And, do you think I have no education in my native language?
I never look down/up at any level of education. I'm usually don't care about such things. But in some cases the comma is to important to ignore. Especially if it's used to prove something.
Quote
I understand what you are saying.  But, you refuse to look at what I am saying.
You want to change one comma in the book to change a meaning to something you like better.
It was used this verse as proof. In such cases imo we should look deeper.
Quote
Why limit yourself to one comma?   Rewrite the whole book!
That was done centuries ago.
Quote
What the translators did in this case is entirely consistent with what they did in every other case.
They followed the rules of English.
They should have followed the rules of Greek.
Quote
They followed the meaning of the words and the meaning of the context.
What if the context is doctrine?
Quote
Jesus is saying, Today you will be with me in Paradise.
If he meant to say something else, he would have said it.
You say A.
I say B.
Who's right?
According to Greek grammar I'm right.
http://www.tstl4sda.net/saranaclake/paradise.htm  --> Especially read point 3
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #164 on: October 22, 2011, 03:52:35 PM »
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you hereafter, ye shall see heaven open... NOPE





And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise....NOPE

Offline CHB

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #165 on: October 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PM »
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?


Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #166 on: October 22, 2011, 04:58:02 PM »
 paradise is the garden,where both the tokogae and tree of life are. what better example of  death in flesh due to sin and eternal life in spirit d/t

  the tol partaken of andn granted access to in Jesus name

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2011, 04:59:36 PM »
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?


2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  [2 Cor 12]



Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #168 on: October 22, 2011, 05:06:10 PM »
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?
Paradise is Eden ,a Garden, , likened to an enclosed WOMB, the womb being likened to our MIND ~The soul is also a Garden, [your mind\Heart} its also the TREE of Life who dwells in your mind, the Kingdom of God, New Jerusalem,The Throne of Life # HE is the TODAY who is the Paradise within our mind when we are drawn to see the LIFE who is [ Inus]#

Sgs 4:12   A garden inclosed [is] my sister, [my] spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. 

Job 8:16   He [is] green [ ALL LIFE IS GRASS= GREEN]before the sun, and his branch shooteth forth in his garden. [ WITHIN OUR MIND]

Sgs 4:16  Awake, O north wind;[ Judgment Unto LIFE comes from the NORTH]] and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, [that] the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits. 

Isa 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak 424 whose leaf 5929 fadeth 5034, and as a garden 1593 that hath no water 4325.[ SOKEN AFTER THE CARNAL MIND THATS WITHERS AND FADES AS THE GLORY OF THE WOMAN \soul~

51:3  For the LORD shall comfort Zion:[ we are ZION] he will comfort all her waste places[ death]]; and he will make her wilderness [ carnal mind]like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. 


 Isa 51:4  Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Isa 58:11   And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 


 Isa 58:12   And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. 


 Whos this Mustard seed placed in the GARDEN[ our mind] who became a GRET TREE[ Christ = The TREEOF LIFE IN US ~ dear one you in PARADISE AS he dwells in you~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2011, 05:16:44 PM »
I learned something new today....
There were punctuation marks in the ancient Greek texts.
Article: http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf
Main site: http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php

 
Page 2.
There are three marks [or, 'points'], a period [or, 'a finished point'], a semi-colon/colon [or,
'a middle point'], and a comma. On the one hand, the period mark is a sign for a complete
expression, but a semi-colon/colon [or, 'a middle point'] sign is breathed according to those
Page 3.
the full point. The point at the top of the line (.) (stigmhÉ teleiÈa, 'high point') was a full stop;
that on the line (.) (
uJpostigmhÈ) was equal to our semicolon, while a middle point (stigmhÉ
meÈsh) was equivalent to our comma. But gradually changes came over these stops till the top
point was equal to our colon, the bottom point became the full stop, the middle point
vanished, and about the ninth century A.D. the comma (,) took its place. About this time also
the question-mark (;) or ejrwthmatikoÈn appeared. These marks differed from the stiÈcoi in
that they concerned the sense of the sentence. Some of the oldest N.T. MSS. show these
marks to some extent. B [Codex Vaticanus] has the higher point as a period, the lower point

for a shorter pause.
9

Page 19
As the response from Rome states clearly, the color of the lower point in
Codex B in Luke 23:43 after the Greek word for "today" is brown, not black or darker as is the
ink of the second hand or the even later scribal corrector.
Even if it were a mark by one of the other two scribes, it would still serve as an indication of the
belief of the scribe identified as to how the sense of the text was understood at the time it was
corrected. But since the point is apparently of the original "brown" color, then the mark after
"today" in Codex B in Luke 23:43 should be included as part of the good reasons which indicate
the correct understanding of Luke 23:43 according to one of the best available texts.



The way I read the above:[/size][/color][/font]

I say to you today; you shall be.....[/size][/color][/font]
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #170 on: October 22, 2011, 05:20:42 PM »
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?


2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
I see no time indication. It doesn't mention it happend before or after the 3 days.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #171 on: October 22, 2011, 05:33:41 PM »
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.
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Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #172 on: October 22, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

Paradise is the GARDEN of our Mind as thes criptures given I believed declared the Pattern, Today is NoT a Today~ HE IS THE TODAY who is the parda se within us when we are given to see, The Robber , purely by coincidence[NOT] to HIS RIGHT  was Given to SEE the LORD was the SON of GOD~The carnal MIND is the ROBBER,  the theif Birthed by eve, who STOLE the LIFE witnin being Christ, the CARNAL MIND being death  is the theif, the murderer, the Idolator, the false prophet et all~ HIS comfort was TO KNOW who HIS MAKER was# PEACE WITHIN#
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #173 on: October 22, 2011, 05:49:10 PM »
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.
I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #174 on: October 22, 2011, 05:55:41 PM »
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.
I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.
Yes Molly, its same pattern unto all. The robber Died as symbol of the carnal mind perishing but alive to Christ who is the LIVE within the MIND\HEART~, I see a Spiritual Purpose behind everything Physical~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.