Author Topic: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it  (Read 24909 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #125 on: October 20, 2011, 10:43:44 AM »
Preaching to the spirits in prison [ a holding place]

also relates to the passage where he says he led

the prisoners captive in his train when he ascended

to heaven, because all those he led upward were

held prisoner in Sheol.

When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train. Psa 68:18

"He led captivity captive" [Eph 4:8] is literally saying he captured the prisoners of war--and led them up with him in his train.  It's a beautiful picture of redemption of the dead.
We aren't discussing if He freed prisoners. It's about when. Your verse would for example also be correct if He took prisoners with Him on Pentecost.
In fact every date just 1 second before that verse was written would be correct (stricktly speaking).

According to Jesus Himself He hasn't ascended yet.
CLVJohn 20
17 which is the term for "Teacher." Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #126 on: October 20, 2011, 03:02:29 PM »

Quote
But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.
Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.


Can Spirit die?

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #127 on: October 20, 2011, 03:07:45 PM »
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43
The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?

Please!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #128 on: October 20, 2011, 03:12:23 PM »

Quote
But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.
Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.


Can Spirit die?

Actually the scripture does not say he was 'made alive'.

The translator did that.

The scripture says

KILLED FLESH BUT ALIVE THE SPIRIT

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #129 on: October 20, 2011, 03:18:17 PM »


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #130 on: October 20, 2011, 03:19:26 PM »

Quote
But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.
Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.


Can Spirit die?

Actually the scripture does not say he was 'made alive'.

The translator did that.

The scripture says

KILLED FLESH BUT ALIVE THE SPIRIT


'nuff said!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #131 on: October 20, 2011, 03:20:05 PM »
if you can read English.
I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.
I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.
IF He did this during His death.
He didn't....
ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Quote
But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.
Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

The spirit never died.  The spirit of man was committed to God's hands, but Jesus was more than the spirit of man.

He says, don't touch me, yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

That means he ascended and offered his body to the Father as a pure sacrifice [nothing unclean could touch him before he did that--see the high priest day of atonement rituals in the OT]  right after he talked to her.

He ascends again at the end of 40 days to take his position on the right hand of the Father, where he is to this day.

But while in Hades as the Spirit, he preaches to the prisoners and leads captivity captive as he ascends on high with many souls.

He has the keys of death and hell, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:26:00 PM by Molly »

Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #132 on: October 20, 2011, 03:49:20 PM »

   SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS

    if I should make my bed in hell, Thou art there.Ps 139;8

   All things are yours,whether,life,death[1 Cor 3;22] or the world,or present or future-ALL ARE YOURS. AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST...AND CHRIST IS OF GOD

   Romans 8;32   If God is for us,who can be against us?He who did not spare His own son,but give him up for all of us- how will He not

  along with him,graciously give us all things?

      This speaks of sonship...the word that was with God of which all was created,the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world...

   this speaks of the all things of inheritance of the sons of God. The good/evil exercie/education of His eternal seed....which was created for their benefit,

  not their destruction[no weapon formed against you will suceed]

    Our Father has done it all

   

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #133 on: October 20, 2011, 03:55:19 PM »
Paul says Jesus was in the abyss=abussos=bottomless pit, depths of the earth

5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).  [Romans 10]

So was Jonah--this is a place cast out of the sight of God. [Jonah 2:3,4]


SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 04:00:20 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #134 on: October 20, 2011, 04:01:57 PM »
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43
The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?
Not break the pattern. Just a pattern you don't like. Changing the position of the comma doesn't imply Jesus lied every other day.

Using yout line of reasoning there is a possibility Jesus was lying in the verse below because He didn't use truly.
ACVMatt 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness abounds more than of the scholars and Pharisees, ye will, no, not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #135 on: October 20, 2011, 04:04:56 PM »
Paul says Jesus was in the abyss=abussos=bottomless pit, depths of the earth

5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).  [Romans 10]

So was Jonah--this is a place cast out of the sight of God. [Jonah 2:3,4]


SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS





                                                                                                                  :HeartThrob:
                                                                                                           THE HEART

            Everything God has created consists of many "parts."  The geologist can explain to you the many "parts" of planet earth.  The botanist is able to give you the names and functions of the various "parts" of a flower.   The astronomer will point out the many billions of "parts" that make up the vast universe.  God has also created man with many "parts."  These are not just the physical parts or organs of the body, but also parts of the mind or soul, and parts of the spirit.  Do not think that the term "parts" in respect to our inner life originated with me!  The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophet Jeremiah with this promise, "I will put my law in their inward parts" (Jer. 31:33).  He is not referring to the inward parts of our body, but to the innermost parts of our sense of being.  God also says that He will write His laws in our heart.  The question follows — What are the inward parts, and what is the heart?

            Jesus said that the very first commandment is this: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul…" (Mk. 12:30).  Here we see two different parts of our being — the heart and the soul.  Obviously each of these also has parts, for the command is to love the Lord with all (the parts of) our heart, and all (the parts of) our soul!  These are both "inward parts" of our being and not outward physical parts of our body.  The three main parts or divisions of man are body, soul, and spirit.  Yet each of these has many parts!  It is easy to realize that the body has many parts, but most people have not considered that the soul and the spirit must also have parts!  And there are parts beyond these which are called the "hidden parts."  "Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me to know wisdom" (Ps. 51:6).  According to the intent of this passage, and others, the word "heart" does not refer to the physical organ located in our chest that pumps blood through our body.  A study of the use of this word in the scriptures will show this to be true.  The heart in scripture is the interior portion of a person.  In the Old Testament, the word "heart" comes from the Hebrew word leb.  According to Strong's Concordance, that word is used very widely for the feelings, the will, the intellect, and the nature.  That word is taken from a prime root word meaning "to be enclosed." It has reference to the deepest and most profound interior of a person!

            As to the heart, it is deeper than the mere mind or soul.  With my mind I can think about many things, both good and evil.   All kinds of thoughts can present themselves in the mind!  Often these thoughts do not represent the kind of person we really are.  A wicked thought might pass through my mind, but that does not mean that I would seriously consider committing any crime or doing some evil.  Many of our thoughts are mundane and can be easily dismissed.  But when the "heart" thinks the wise man said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, SO IS HE!" (Prov. 23:7).  Many scriptures speak of the thoughts of the heart! The heart also has "purposes," "intents," "emotions," and "conscience."

            One of the greatest mysteries in the word of God is found in Ezekiel 36:25-30 wherein we read, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them…I will also save you from all your uncleannesses…"  This wonderful passage teaches us that there is more than one heart.   There is an old heart and there is a new heart!   The old heart is the deepest part of being in the life of old Adam.  The new heart is the deepest part of being of Christ in our spirit!

The old heart is the deepest and innermost sense of being, of the natural man.  This heart is the root of all human expression and identity.  It is also the well-spring of what is called "human nature."  Of that nature Jesus said, "Are ye so without understanding also?  Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mk. 7:18-23).  Our hearts are a bad neighborhood that we dare not walk around in alone!  You don't think there is a wickedness of the human heart that lies deeper than the outward sins of the flesh?  Then consider and meditate for a while on these significant words of Jesus, "I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Mat. 5:28).

            That the "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" in the symbolisms of scripture portrays the human heart is beautifully confirmed by the words of the prophet David.   David, in describing the wickedness of man, says, "Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity…they encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?   They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search (plumbing the depths): both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, IS DEEP" (Ps. 64:2-6).  The heart is a deep!  The Hebrew word here for deep is amoq meaning not only something deep, but "deeper than" other things.  It is used in Job 11:8 of that which is "deeper than hell."  Again we find it used in this way, "He discovereth deep (amoq) things out of darkness" (Job 12:22).  Then in Ecclesiastes 7:24 it refers to "that which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?"  In all these passages there is a suggestion of both the words of Jeremiah and David that the heart of man is not only very deep, but that the depths are unfathomable — beyond the comprehension of any other than God Himself!

            We must conclude, then, that the heart of man is the very lowest realm of man's being!  Sometimes the Lord's elect fail to see that our natural heart is just like anyone else's Adamic heart, and every son of God must clearly see, understand, and overcome the very basest things and powers that lie hidden, concealed, and buried in the unseen depths of the old, natural heart.  Thank God, Jesus holds the key, it is He who opens the abyss, and brings forth the revelation of all that is lurking there!  As John in spirit beheld the scene, the Lord Jesus, receiving the key, opened the abyss and "there arose smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace"   (Rev. 9:2).  That this bottomless pit is the heart of man is further confirmed by the words of Hosea who wrote of backsliding Israel, "they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness…for they have made ready their heart as an oven" (Hos. 7:6).  The word here translated "oven" is, in the Hebrew, "furnace."  We see, then, the bottomless pit identified as a furnace in the words of the apostle John, and the heart of man identified as the furnace by the prophet Hosea, and from this furnace of man's heart rolls billows of smoke!

             Yet, Jesus also said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Mt. 5:8).  Pure in heart!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #136 on: October 20, 2011, 04:05:49 PM »
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43
The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?
Not break the pattern. Just a pattern you don't like. Changing the position of the comma doesn't imply Jesus lied every other day.

Using yout line of reasoning there is a possibility Jesus was lying in the verse below because He didn't use truly.
ACVMatt 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness abounds more than of the scholars and Pharisees, ye will, no, not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Im telling you the truth today --implies that on another day I did not tell you truth.

It would be a stupid thing to say if you don't wish to imply that.

It's the sort of phrase you might hear in police interviews.

And, like I said every other time Jesus said Truly, they put the comma after Truly.

So you need a better argument than that.  Because they are being consistent.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #137 on: October 20, 2011, 04:07:29 PM »


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.
The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #138 on: October 20, 2011, 04:10:53 PM »


I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #139 on: October 20, 2011, 04:12:55 PM »


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.
The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."

LOL

Give it up.  It doesn't say 'sometime in the future.'  It says TODAY [you shall be with me in Paradise].

I'm sure if Jesus wished to say something else, he would have said it.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #140 on: October 20, 2011, 04:19:37 PM »
He says, don't touch me,
True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quote
yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.
True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2011, 04:26:33 PM »
Beautiful post,Beloved!

   Luke 2;35   This child is due to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel,and to be a sign that will be spoken against.

    ;so the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed" And a sword will pierce your own soul,too.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #142 on: October 20, 2011, 04:26:48 PM »
He says, don't touch me,
True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quote
yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.
True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.

This does not preclude him ascending as the Spirit.

Just imagine the Christ entering the place of the dead, how glorious that would be!

These are the OT souls who have been waiting for him.

You see, when he ascends at the end of 40 days, the clouds [of witnesses] are already there to receive him.


And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  Acts 1:9

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #143 on: October 20, 2011, 04:32:16 PM »


I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.
Comma's have many uses.
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp   -> Rule 1
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000068.htm
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
Etc.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #144 on: October 20, 2011, 04:34:48 PM »
He says, don't touch me,
True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quote
yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.
True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.
Is a spirit a human?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2011, 04:35:51 PM »
Quote from: ww
ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom but spirit can--the spirits of just men made perfect. [Heb 12]

So can flesh and bone, the resurrected Christ.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2011, 04:37:12 PM »
He says, don't touch me,
True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quote
yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.
True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.
Is a spirit a human?
  There is a spirit of man, but Jesus has the Spirit of God.

Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2011, 04:40:50 PM »
...at that moment the curtain of the temple was torn into from top to bottom.The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies

  of many holy people who had died were raised to life,they came out of the tombs,and after Jesus resurrection they went into the Holy city...

   and appeared to many people

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2011, 04:47:57 PM »
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts for men, even for the rebellious--that you, O LORD God, might dwell there. Psalm 68



Psalm 47:5 God has ascended amid shouts of joy, the LORD amid the sounding of trumpets.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2011, 04:50:09 PM »


I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.
Comma's have many uses.
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp   -> Rule 1
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000068.htm
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
Etc.


Those rules are in no particular order.
In no particular order are those rules.