Author Topic: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it  (Read 22191 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2011, 05:44:10 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)


And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2011, 08:58:41 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)


And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43


17The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts for men, even for the rebellious--that you, O LORD God, might dwell there.  Psalm 68


Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."


19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

 20He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death. Psa 68
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 09:12:12 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2011, 09:07:44 AM »

Psalm 47:5 God has ascended amid shouts of joy, the LORD amid the sounding of trumpets.


Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2011, 09:22:48 AM »


19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God Yeshû‛âh. Selah.   [Psa 68]

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2011, 09:40:36 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]
Only dead things can be made alive.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2011, 09:44:35 AM »
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43
That's a translation based on doctrine. Or perhaps the doctrine is based on a unproven translation  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2011, 09:48:37 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]
Only dead things can be made alive.
Maybe so, but nevertheless, he is alive in the spirit and preaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2011, 10:03:54 AM »
preaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.
More doctrine not supported by the Greek text.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #109 on: October 19, 2011, 10:20:56 AM »
preaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.
More doctrine not supported by the Greek text.
 :2c:
How so?

Also, It's not the only text that refers to him being alive in the grave.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2011, 10:32:42 AM »


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol.

1 Peter 3:18,19

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #111 on: October 19, 2011, 10:36:11 AM »
Maybe this verse (topic) deserves a thread on it's own. Maybe it's just one of those never ending trinity/free will debate.

As a summary: The preaching was done during His life. The prisoners are Israel. (captives of the law?)

http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection

First, it seems very unlikely that Peter is saying that Jesus was "made alive" before the making alive of the resurrection. It is much more likely that "having been made alive by the Spirit" refers to the resurrection (cf. Romans 1:3-4).  The verb zōopoieō is used most often in the New Testament to speak of the actual resurrection of believers (John 5:21; Rom. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:22, 36).
The verb poreuomai, which is used for "having gone" in verse 19, is used in verse 22 (and in Acts 1:10-11) for the ascension. That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison. It would still be puzzling (there is nothing to correlate it with), but it would not require an un-Jewish "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.
However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively. Peter draws an analogy between the world before the destruction of the flood, when God's patience (makrothumia) with sin had been exhausted, from which a few escaped by the ark, and "unrighteous" Israel before the judgment and destruction of AD 70, from which a few were saved by the antitype of baptism.
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
It is basically the same argument that Jesus makes in Matthew 24:37-38 (= Lk. 17:26-27): just as the world was taken by surprise by the judgment of the flood, from which only Noah and his family were saved, so Israel will be taken by surprise by the judgment of the coming war, from which only a few will be saved. Paul upbraids the Jews for presuming on God's patience (makrothumia), which was meant to lead them to repentance (Rom. 2:4); and he asserts in Romans 9:22 that God's patience (makrothumia) has run out with Israel.






http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: "…the Spirit, by whom…" (v. 18-19). ["My Spirit" (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).] Other passages confirm that Jesus was said to do things that He actually did through the instrumentality of others (John 4:1-2; Ephesians 2:17). Nathan charged King David: "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Samuel 12:9), when, in fact, David had ordered it done by another. Elijah accused Ahab of killing Naboth, using the words, "Have you murdered and also taken possession?" (1 Kings 21:19), even though his wife, Jezebel, arranged for two other men to accomplish the evil action. Paul said Jesus preached peace to the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:17), when, in fact, Jesus did so through others, since He, Himself, already had returned to heaven when the first Gentiles heard the Gospel (Acts 15:7). So the Bible frequently refers to someone doing something that he, in fact, did through the agency of another person.
In fact, within the book of 1 Peter itself, Peter already had made reference to the fact that the Spirit "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:11). But it was the prophets who did the actual speaking (vs. 10). Then, again in chapter 4, Peter stated that "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6). Here were individuals who had the Gospel preached to them while they were alive ("in the flesh"), and who responded favorably by becoming Christians. But then they were "judged according to men in the flesh," i.e., they were treated harshly and condemned to martyrdom by their contemporaries. At the time Peter was writing, they were "dead," i.e., deceased and departed from the Earth. But Peter said they "live according to God in the spirit," i.e., they were alive and well in spirit form in the hadean realm in God's good graces.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2011, 10:41:49 AM »
Maybe this verse (topic) deserves a thread on it's own. Maybe it's just one of those never ending trinity/free will debate.

As a summary: The preaching was done during His life. The prisoners are Israel. (captives of the law?)

http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection

First, it seems very unlikely that Peter is saying that Jesus was "made alive" before the making alive of the resurrection. It is much more likely that "having been made alive by the Spirit" refers to the resurrection (cf. Romans 1:3-4).  The verb zōopoieō is used most often in the New Testament to speak of the actual resurrection of believers (John 5:21; Rom. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:22, 36).
The verb poreuomai, which is used for "having gone" in verse 19, is used in verse 22 (and in Acts 1:10-11) for the ascension. That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison. It would still be puzzling (there is nothing to correlate it with), but it would not require an un-Jewish "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.
However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively. Peter draws an analogy between the world before the destruction of the flood, when God's patience (makrothumia) with sin had been exhausted, from which a few escaped by the ark, and "unrighteous" Israel before the judgment and destruction of AD 70, from which a few were saved by the antitype of baptism.
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
It is basically the same argument that Jesus makes in Matthew 24:37-38 (= Lk. 17:26-27): just as the world was taken by surprise by the judgment of the flood, from which only Noah and his family were saved, so Israel will be taken by surprise by the judgment of the coming war, from which only a few will be saved. Paul upbraids the Jews for presuming on God's patience (makrothumia), which was meant to lead them to repentance (Rom. 2:4); and he asserts in Romans 9:22 that God's patience (makrothumia) has run out with Israel.






http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: "…the Spirit, by whom…" (v. 18-19). ["My Spirit" (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).] Other passages confirm that Jesus was said to do things that He actually did through the instrumentality of others (John 4:1-2; Ephesians 2:17). Nathan charged King David: "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Samuel 12:9), when, in fact, David had ordered it done by another. Elijah accused Ahab of killing Naboth, using the words, "Have you murdered and also taken possession?" (1 Kings 21:19), even though his wife, Jezebel, arranged for two other men to accomplish the evil action. Paul said Jesus preached peace to the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:17), when, in fact, Jesus did so through others, since He, Himself, already had returned to heaven when the first Gentiles heard the Gospel (Acts 15:7). So the Bible frequently refers to someone doing something that he, in fact, did through the agency of another person.
In fact, within the book of 1 Peter itself, Peter already had made reference to the fact that the Spirit "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:11). But it was the prophets who did the actual speaking (vs. 10). Then, again in chapter 4, Peter stated that "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6). Here were individuals who had the Gospel preached to them while they were alive ("in the flesh"), and who responded favorably by becoming Christians. But then they were "judged according to men in the flesh," i.e., they were treated harshly and condemned to martyrdom by their contemporaries. At the time Peter was writing, they were "dead," i.e., deceased and departed from the Earth. But Peter said they "live according to God in the spirit," i.e., they were alive and well in spirit form in the hadean realm in God's good graces.

"However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively"



This is totally silly, especially for a UR person.

You just took one passage and turned it into a thesis and a metaphor.

How about taking it on face value.  It says what it means.

If you don't understand it, ask your near death people.

The fact is he did descend and ascend while in the grave and led captivity captive.

It doesn't say the Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.  It says Jesus, alive in the grave in Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.

But suit yourself.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 10:57:43 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2011, 10:50:28 AM »
KJV: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

This is very hard to explain for me because I have no clue how the grammar contruct is called in English.
Possibly it's called: subordinate clause.
I'll try to explain. It's just a refrence. It doesn't belong in the timeline of the verse.
Example.

Every sunday Molly visits church and afterward discusses the sermon with a group of friends.

Every sunday Molly, who's dog died last year, visits church and afterward discusses the sermon with a group of friends.

The blue part is what I mean. Your dog died last year. That's a fact. But in this context it doesn't mean you went to church. Then the dog died. After that you went to your study group. Neither does it mean your dog dies weekly because you went to church weekly.


Below some examples. All facts. But none really relevant for the verse. The verse would be equally complete without the blue part

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: loves His parents;"

 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: was a honest man;"

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: was/is the Son of God;"


I hope you understand what grammer contruct I'm trying to explain  :mshock:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2011, 10:53:17 AM »
The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 10:58:18 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #115 on: October 19, 2011, 10:57:49 AM »
This is totally silly, especially for a UR person.
Why especially for the UR view?
Quote
You just took one passage and turned it into a thesis and a metaphor.

How about taking it on face value.  It says what it means.
That's what I did. That's the whole point.

Quote
If you don't understand it, ask your near death people.
Hu?


Quote
The fact is he did descend and ascend while in the grave and led captivity captive.
That's not a fact. It's what you claim without any proof.


Quote
It doesn't say the Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.  It says Jesus, alive in the grave proclaimed to the spirits.
Read, read read......
Jesus preached 3 years (ministry) to the sprits in  prison (Jews).


Quote
But suit yourself.
You really need to seperate doctrine/personal views from discussing things.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2011, 11:04:12 AM »
The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.
Who are in Sheol? The dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. Whole Israel.

Assuming He really went to "hell": Why only 8 souls? I think those 8 and especially Noach are the one that need the preaching the least. What about the thousands of drowned people?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »
Seens simple enough to me.  I don't see anything there about the Jews , about the three year ministry of Jesus, or about any more than 8 souls being saved at the time of the flood.  But, this is a great UR passage if you can read English.



18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.  1 Peter 3

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2011, 11:07:44 AM »
The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.
Who are in Sheol? The dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. Whole Israel.

Assuming He really went to "hell": Why only 8 souls? I think those 8 and especially Noach are the one that need the preaching the least. What about the thousands of drowned people?
  No.  It's saying AT THE TIME OF THE FLOOD only 8 souls were saved.

Dead means separated from the living God.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2011, 11:32:22 AM »
Preaching to the spirits in prison [ a holding place]

also relates to the passage where he says he led

the prisoners captive in his train when he ascended

to heaven, because all those he led upward were

held prisoner in Sheol.

When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train. Psa 68:18

"He led captivity captive" [Eph 4:8] is literally saying he captured the prisoners of war--and led them up with him in his train.  It's a beautiful picture of redemption of the dead.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2011, 11:36:09 AM »
if you can read English.
I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2011, 11:54:25 AM »
if you can read English.
I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.
I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.


But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.


This is also OT prophesy as I pointed out.


Pe 3:18  ForG3754 ChristG5547 alsoG2532 hath onceG530 sufferedG3958 forG4012 sins,G266 the justG1342 forG5228 the unjust,G94 thatG2443 he might bringG4317 usG2248 to God,G2316 being put to deathG2289 in the(G3303) flesh,G4561 butG1161 quickenedG2227 by theG3588 Spirit:G4151
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:04:50 PM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2011, 08:13:38 AM »


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)


And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

But you won't know it because the dead know nothing, hmmm, why am I wasting words up here on this cross about seeing you somewhere else later today..... I should be listening to the dogmatists of the future who kno better than me........
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2011, 10:14:21 AM »
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43
The comma isn't in the Greek text.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #124 on: October 20, 2011, 10:31:02 AM »
if you can read English.
I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.
I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.
IF He did this during His death.
He didn't....
ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Quote
But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.
Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...