Author Topic: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it  (Read 18695 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2011, 08:38:04 AM »

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?


For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10
Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2011, 10:08:28 AM »
The Eastern orthodox  position is that they have not decided on UR, but open to debate. They have faith that Jesus will save all.

So in their case Ur was never abandoned I think.
Could be true I think. Christianity outside the Roman empire evolved based on debate instead of oppression.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2011, 11:16:26 AM »

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?


For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10
Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.

Not sure what you're gettin' at, old buddy,  :bigGrin:  but I'm simply addressing the basics of salvation, trying to specifically answer your question, "what's a Christian, a true believer".  As I understand, one can be a member at CARM, First Baptist, or Tentmaker and have 99 doctrines in error, but salvation is provided by being drawn by the Spirit to the Father, and then being given faith to believe on the Son Jesus as one's Savior.   If being a Christian is about "applying knowledge", then IMO, that's works, and we're not saved by works.  Rightly dividing the scrips that seem to "conflict", Jesus was talking pre-cross about the kingdom to the Jews, and then Paul told us post-cross how to be saved. 

Increasing knowledge, holy living/sanctification, understanding/revelation about precepts such as UR and how to overcome sin, may all come later -  "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 3:18.    We don't start off there, we start out as babes - for many, "just" receiving enough to be saved.  Then we mature from there.   I'll go so far as to say, many won't mature past things like ET belief, or many sins in their life, and will have their works burned in the day of the Lord, so the spirit will be saved. 

On topic, if the gates of hell prevail against those called, saved, and sealed and kept by the Holy Spirit, then hell is overcoming God Himself.  But since He's in control of that, initiates it and completes it (Hebrews 12:2) that's not going to happen.   :boyheart:
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 11:22:10 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2011, 11:45:52 AM »

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10
Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.

Not sure what you're gettin' at, old buddy, 
Who is "Lord" in your verse:
a] Jesus who fails to accomplish His main task "salvation of all". Jesus who's main attribute is justice.
b] Jesus who succeeds His main task. Jesus who's main attribute is love.


Are the people who believe option "b" really know Jesus? Do those people really confess to Jesus or some pagan concept. Are they among the people from this verse:

Matthew 7:23-24
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2011, 01:17:18 PM »
Quote from: ww
Who is "Lord" in your verse:
a] Jesus who fails to accomplish His main task "salvation of all". Jesus who's main attribute is justice.
b] Jesus who succeeds His main task. Jesus who's main attribute is love.

c) Jesus who is my best friend and Savior.


and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  [Mat 18:3]

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »
 :thumbdown:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2011, 02:19:17 PM »
:thumbdown:
Does this mean I am cast into the outer darkness of whitewings forever? :mshock:

Ok.  Try this.

d) All that matters is our personal relationship with Jesus.  He is Lord of our lives.


Psalm 62:8 Trust in Him at all times O people; pour out your hearts to Him, for God is our refuge.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 02:29:40 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2011, 03:17:06 PM »
It means you use words that I asked the defenition of.

It's great Jesus is your best friend. But which one is it? Jesus-a or Jesus-b?
Does Jesus-a exist? If not, can He be your friend?

Is Jesus-a an idol? A tickling of the ears? A false image?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2011, 03:33:55 PM »
Justice is one of his attributes.  It's not who he is.

To be fair, I think people read about a person and think they know him.

They want to know him.

But, if you were a journalist, and had the opportunity to interview someone instead of just reading about him, what would you do?

Wouldn't you take the opportunity to interview him?  Why?  Because first hand experience is so much better?

You asked:  define Jesus/Lord.

You asked:  Jesus who does this?  Or Jesus who does that.

I answered:  Jesus who is Lord of my life.

I answered:  Ask him yourself, up close and personal.


I just learned  the word "firstborn" in the phrase, 'church of the firstborn', is plural.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2011, 08:27:29 PM »
I like what Molly was trying to bring out with the OP here.  The question, and conversation seems to be focused on the church that "we" observe rather than what this church Jesus was referring to really is.  I think the "filtering" of falseness came in as a result of others who also lost sight of what Christ's church was really based on. 

The taking care of widows and orphans is not the foundation of the church, it's merely the manifestation of it.  It's what we do "as a result" of God's transformation within us.  But what is the church actually "built" on?  "Upon this rock . . ."  What was the rock?  Many will say it's "Christ", HE is our rock . . .which I wouldn't argue but Jesus didn't say "upon ME . . ."  He was directing his attention to something outside of that.  What just transpired that Jesus was reacting to when he said this?  What's the context about?

For me, the centerpiece of this passage is pertaining to the fact that God himself, for the first time, had revealed to Peter DIRECTLY who Jesus was.  "That's" the rock and Jesus uses as the foundation of the church.  The foundation is "direct communication with the Father".  When God plants truth in us personally . . . NOTHING can shake it.  The gates (speaking of "authority) of hell (speaking of destructive forces in others and in us) can not prevail against it . . .

A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.   

How did all the junk filter in the church then?  People stopped having that direct communication with God . .which is "spriit-to-spirit" and they turned to their own reasoning.  Men influencing men to teach what "they" wanted to be taught, to taint whatever needed to be tainted so long as it aligned with their controlling agendas. 

Then our generation comes along and continues to swallow the crooked things and call them straight . . .because that's what we've been taught to teach.

But God is reconnecting with the hearts of men . . .the message is changing and people are beginning to take notice.  God is revealing the nature of Jesus directly in the hearts of men once again, and the message is returning to it's original pure state and as a result, captives are once again being set free, the blind are finally beginning to see the truth, the deaf are finally beginning to hear His sound . . .the lame can finally walk in his light rather than in their perspective of what his light is.  This is all in preparation not so that we can continue being where we are, but it prepare us all for what is yet to come.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2011, 12:14:21 AM »


Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. [Hos 1:9]

"Loammi" = Not a people


"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'[Hos 1:10]


10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.  [Isa 11]



19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [Eze 37]

Offline Pierac

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2011, 02:18:09 AM »
Some obvious misconceptions need to be eliminated about the matter of the Ekklesia. First, when Christ said He would build His body, He was not referring to a material structure such as a cathedral, a basilica, or a temple of wood and stone.  Secondly, another erroneous notion (very common today) is that Christ was going to build an organization of men on this earth an organization ruled by appointed men while He remained in heaven. The Ekklesia Christ was going to build was not to be an organization of men. One point in particular prevents Christ's Ekklesia from being an organization of men no matter how holy and righteous the men may appear to be. With His Ekklesia, Christ insisted that "the gates of hell [hades/the grave] shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). (It is important to know Hades translated sometimes as hell really means grave in modern English). All persons who ever lived in Christ over the centuries (whether they were early apostles, or later  ministers and laymen) have had hades prevail over them! All have gone to their graves!

True, hades will not triumph over them in the end, but hades is certainly in exultation over them now. They must all await the resurrection to occur at Christ's second advent for their victory over hades to be complete. The church cannot be an organization of men because Hades does presently prevail over men and will continue to triumph until the resurrection. The problem with many Ministers and Priests today is that they continue to teach nonsense that the "church" is located somewhere on earth, is governed by men and that the "church organization" will never see death. That is not what Christ meant.  This concept would be similar to the government of Aaronic priests who ruled ancient Israel under the Old Covenant. Aaron, the brother of Moses, was given authority to be a human mediator (along with his sons) between Israel and God. When Aaron died, he went to hades (the grave). As a result he had to hand his authority down to the next generation of priests. This transfer of authority carried on for generations. But the writer of Hebrews reckoned this type of religious government as being very inferior to what Christ established.

"They truly were many priests, because they were not suffered [allowed] to continue by reason of death."       (Hebrews 7:23)

Aaron and his human descendants had roles of "changeable authority"  predominating in their ministries. This resulted in a profound deficiency being associated with it. This is because Aaron and his sons had hades prevail over them. And not only that, but leaders of every Christian denomination on earth have handed their "authority" on to an earthly son (or to a board of men). They all die too. This trend is seen all the time and in no way differs from what happened with the Aaronic priesthood of the Old Covenant. All have a changeable authority.  The Book of Hebrews points out that Christs unchangeable priesthood is far superior in the Christian Ekklesia. But this man [Jesus Christ], because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood" (Hebrews 7:24).  The margin says,  απαραβατον ἱερωσυνην,   a priesthood that passeth not away from him.

Christ's Ekklesia is far different because He does not have to hand His authority down from one man to another. His authority is "unchangeable," permanent and invested in One individual who "continues ever" (Hebrews 7:24). This is why the gates of hades will never prevail against Christ's Ekklesia. It is not because hades does not have power over all human members of the Ekklesia, because it does! But hades has no power over Christ anymore! This is why Christ's Ekklesia is very different from the Old Covenant "church" which depended upon Aaron and his sons handing down their authority to other humans from generation to generation. Christ is different! He is like Melchizedek.  Christ's Ekklesia is not a church building made of stone and wood. It is also not an organization of men with some type of "authority" handed down from father to son (or from leaders to leaders). The Ekklesia of Christ has only one authority and that jurisdiction rests solely in Christ! The Ekklesia is even reckoned as His Body and He is the Head. He gives us the privilege to represent some of its constituents through His grace. "We are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones" (Ephesians 5:30). The Ekklesia, however, is His Body; it is not ours! And it is Christ who mastered hades, not ourselves. He is the Head of the Body (Colossians 1:18; 2:19). Christ represents the part that controls the whole. Christ is the only part of the Body that never varies. He always remains constant and perfect. All of us who represent His present Body come and go, but the head always stays constant. (Taken from ELM)


Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2011, 05:10:24 AM »
Quote from: Paul
All persons who ever lived in Christ over the centuries (whether they were early apostles, or later  ministers and laymen) have had hades prevail over them! All have gone to their graves!

Just to say I disagree with this, as I have on so many other threads.  Christ has instituted a new priesthood [Melchizedek] based on an indestructible life, as you said, but that is implemented and working now.  We have already received eternal life.  That's the whole point!  That's the new covenant.  The old one is obsolete and fading away.



 9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

--2 Peter 2




We Christians are the fulfillment of this prophecy:

"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'[Hos 1:10]
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:14:48 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 05:28:53 AM »
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.



23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [Rom 9]

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 06:59:20 AM »
I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 07:41:48 AM »
   Jesus answered them,'Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days"

   the temple Jesus raises is the fallenspiritual body of all dead in Adam...He raises them to eternal

    life.

   When God called His sons out of Egypt through Moses,Pharoah was told it was to journey three

 days   in the wilderness to offer a sacrifice to God.   Free from sin works for three days...

  rest in the grave from the hard labour laid on man by the prince of this world.


    Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.

   they need but look upon He that was lifted up in the wilderness[look up! Your deliverance

   draws nigh,] Really, when I see Him lifted up on that torture stake,I hear this...

    Father forgive them,they know not what they do.....Now, God has testified....

   that He would not suffer His Holy One to see corruption...which is also the same

  as the gates of hell not prevailing against Him...and what mankind needs to realize is just this...

  this speaks of you..for you are His body He raises up and does not allow to see corruption.

  Your new creature in every man and woman..will not see corruption,nor hell prevail

  against you. It is the corrupt image[sin in flesh] that the gates of hell prevail over/return to dust


   indeed the sacrifice pleasing unto God was made in the wilderness,the true manna from heaven

  fed them, the rock that brought forth living water.


     WHO IS THIS? THAT APPEARS LIKE THE DAWN,FAIR AS THE MOON,BRIGHT AS THE SUN

     MAJESTIC AS THE STARS IN PROCESSION........


     fOR lOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

     IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE,LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME.MANY WATERS CANNOT QUENCH

   LOVE[DRAGONFLOODS TRYING TO PREVAIL AS GATES OF HELL]

    RIVERS CANNOT WASH IT AWAY[DOCTRINES OF CONDEMNATION/DEATH

     SPEWED OUT OF DRAGONS MOUTH]

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2011, 08:44:57 AM »
Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.
The wages of sin is death. Was Jesus a sinner?  :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2011, 09:38:53 AM »
Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.
The wages of sin is death. Was Jesus a sinner?  :dontknow:

Sorry, not sheila.  sheila can go next   :laughing7:


He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him  Is. 53:5


He committed no sin,  and no deceit was found in his mouth."   When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.  He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.  I Peter 2:21-26
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2011, 10:16:49 AM »
I know those verses James. It just puts a totally different light on "the wages of sin is death".
The wage is still death but not necessarily for the one who commited the sin.
Of course a similar system was very frequently used in OT. The wages of sin is the death of a sheep/goat
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2011, 12:29:33 PM »
I know those verses James. It just puts a totally different light on "the wages of sin is death".
The wage is still death but not necessarily for the one who commited the sin.
Of course a similar system was very frequently used in OT. The wages of sin is the death of a sheep/goat

Exactly.

This is an interesting article.



In the book of Leviticus we read of an intriguing ceremony which was performed every year on the Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur, in ancient Israel. God commanded the people of Israel, "From the Israelite community he [the high priest] is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. . . Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. He is to CAST LOTS for the two goats -- one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat . . .


"He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way he will MAKE ATONEMENT for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. . . .


"When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Ten of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites -- all their sins -- and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a SOLITARY PLACE; and the man shall release it in the desert" (Lev.16:5-22).


What is this mysterious "scapegoat" that carries the sins of all the people into the desert? What does this strange ceremony symbolize and foretell?


All commentators are agreed that the first goat, which is sacrificed for a sin offering, whose blood is sprinkled over the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, represents Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who was slain for the sins of the world. John the Baptist looked upon Jesus, and declared to his disciples, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29). The apostle Paul wrote of Christ, our High Priest, "Such a high priest meets our need -- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE FOR ALL when he offered himself" (Heb.7:26-27).


Paul explained further, "When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL BY HIS OWN BLOOD, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb.9:11-12).


As Paul wrote, "For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place ever year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (Heb.9:24-28).


Notice! Jesus gave His life for our sins ONCE and for all time. His sacrifice COMPLETELY paid the penalty of our sins. This awesome event is portrayed by the first of the two goats, the one whose lot fell "to the LORD," the goat that was sacrificed by the high priest as a SIN offering for the people! As Paul explains to the Corinthians, "God made him who had no sin to BE SIN for us, so that in HIM we might become the righteousness of God" (II Cor.5:21).


Therefore, this first goat which was offered on the Day of Atonement every year, pictured to perfection the unique sacrifice of Jesus Christ who laid down His life for our sins, as our "sin offering." Jesus is also the "Passover Lamb" who was slain for us, that our sins might be covered by His blood, and we might be forgiven, and have peace and reconciliation with God. "For Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed" (I Cor.5:7).


Why then, in the ancient yearly ceremony on the Day of Atonement, was there the unique feature of a SECOND GOAT -- one not "for the LORD," but for "Azazel"? The sacrifice of Jesus Christ PERFECTLY satisfied the requirement and symbolism of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There would have been no need whatsoever for a second, additional goat to also represent Christ in His capacity as our "sin bearer." The first goat, who was SLAIN for our sins, fulfills this symbolism PERFECTLY! What, then, does this second goat really represent?


Let's understand!


The "Azazel" Goat


Peake's Commentary on the Bible asserts, "Having thus isolated the sin of the people from all holy things, Aaron now proceeds to get rid of their sin altogether. He puts both hands on the head of the live goat, recites over it all the sins of the people of Israel and thus transfers their sins to the goat. The goat is then sent away and is lost in the wilderness. There was a man waiting in order to follow the goat and see that it was successfully lost. In the time of the Second Temple this man was usually a non-Israelite" (p.248).


This Commentary continues:


"According to Hebrew tradition, as preserved in the Mishnah,

Yoma vi, 8, the goat was driven to a rocky terrace twelve miles

east of Jerusalem, identified as the modern Bet Hudedun, and

was driven over these jagged rocks to perish over this precipice

. . . G. R. Driver, 'Three Technical Terms in the Pentateuch,' . . .

shows that the 11th century Jewish commentator Rashi was right

when he understood AZAZEL to refer to the place to which the

goat was sent. It means, 'jagged rocks, precipice,' and only later

did the word come to refer to a desert demon . . . the Rabbis were

very clear that the goat was in no sense a gift to Azazel. Rabbi

Eliezer declared that the goat was not a gift to Semjaza (Sammael),

the chief of the Fallen Angels, nor a bribe to him not to make their

offerings void or falsely to accuse Israel. It was not a sacrifice

since it was not slaughtered. It was SENT AWAY BY GOD'S

COMMAND. God chooses the goat that is sent away to Azazel.

Plainly and simply God himself is providing a means of getting

rid of Israel's sin" (p.248-249).


Notice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins. Secondly, this second goat was "sent away" to the desert by the COMMAND of GOD! Christ was never sent away to the desert, carrying our sins to the remote wilderness. This pictures some other altogether different event!


Notice once more: This second goat is chosen "by lot," as is the first goat. That is, God Himself choses which goat will represent Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer, and which goat will represent this other symbolism -- the "Azazel."


The very name "Azazel" itself is very significant. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible points out that this term literally means "GOAT OF DEPARTURE." It comes from two roots: aze, "a she goat (as strong)," and azal, aw-zal -- "a primitive root, to GO AWAY, hence to DISAPPEAR, fail, gad about, go to and fro, BE GONE, SPENT."

http://www.triumphpro.com/azazel-goat.htm




For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.


--Psa 103




"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." [Heb 10:17]




« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 12:35:54 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2011, 02:16:19 PM »
Why then, in the ancient yearly ceremony on the Day of Atonement, was there the unique feature of a SECOND GOAT -- one not "for the LORD," but for "Azazel"? The sacrifice of Jesus Christ PERFECTLY satisfied the requirement and symbolism of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There would have been no need whatsoever for a second, additional goat to also represent Christ in His capacity as our "sin bearer." The first goat, who was SLAIN for our sins, fulfills this symbolism PERFECTLY! What, then, does this second goat really represent?
..........
Notice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins. Secondly, this second goat was "sent away" to the desert by the COMMAND of GOD! Christ was never sent away to the desert, carrying our sins to the remote wilderness. This pictures some other altogether different event!
I disagree with that part. It would break the pattern. Jesus was also the second goat that carried away the sins.
Quote
He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task.
The man is the HS that let Jesus away after baptism.
Quote
The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a SOLITARY PLACE; and the man shall release it in the desert" (Lev.16:5-22). 
Jesus went to a solitary place (the wilderness) where He fasted for 40 days.


Quote
Notice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins.
Imo that's just a false assumption that Jesus' 1st-goat-sacrifice was enough. Lemme explain that a bit.
The ritual in Leviticus had two stages. When one part was not completed or not performed correctly the attonement would have failed. That wasn't because one of the goats wasn't good enough but simply because God commanded a 2 step ritual.
Same for Jesus. He had to follow the two steps also. So it has nothing to do with perfection but with rules. Otherwise I can just as well claim His death on the cross was a waste of time because the goat sacrifice was so perfect He basicly accompliced His work in the few seconds John the Baptist held Him under water.
Jesus was perfect and equally important He perfectly followed the laws/rituals.

 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 02:45:05 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2011, 02:30:03 PM »
Good stuff, ww.

Jesus went into the desert right after his baptism.

There he conquered Satan, regarding his life on the earth in the flesh.

It is a proof of his purity and also of his dominion over Satan [unlike Adam who lost the battle with Satan].

This is the high priest purifying himself first.

The Israelites were also taken into the desert as soon as they were released from captivity by God.

One could argue, some are still there.

Two brothers:  One conquers by Grace, One falls by the Law.

It is the Law which convicts us of sin and sets the penalty.

How does Jesus in the desert resemble the scapegoat?

How do the Israelites released from captivity and taken into the desert resemble the scapegoat?

God not only pays the wages for us, he removes sin from us completely!

He not only forgives our sins, he forgets them!

Those who entered the promised land are the second circumcision.

Quote
The very name "Azazel" itself is very significant. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible points out that this term literally means "GOAT OF DEPARTURE." It comes from two roots: aze, "a she goat (as strong)," and azal, aw-zal -- "a primitive root, to GO AWAY, hence to DISAPPEAR, fail, gad about, go to and fro, BE GONE, SPENT."

« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 02:38:36 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2011, 02:43:34 PM »
The Israelites were also taken into the desert as soon as they were released from captivity by God.
That's a pattern I never really figured out.
They were in the desert for 40 years. Jesus for 40 days. That's simple.
But they were only that long in the desert because they didn't obey. Their journey could have ended at mt. Sinai. I think there was "pentecost event" at that mountain.  (the cloud)

That was 3 months after they left Egypt. What happend to Jesus after 3 days? Or should the failure of the Isrealites no be part of the pattern.
Could be; but "3" is a to significant number to just ignore....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2011, 02:49:00 PM »
Thought/question.

Did satan tempt Jesus on His 3rd day in the wilderness?
If so is there a link bewteen satan tempting and Moses getting the 10 commandments???????
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2011, 02:51:38 PM »
Yes a pentecost event but it came only to/through Moses, the shadow of the Melchizedek priesthood.

The rest of the Israelites were not even to touch the mountain or they would die.

But Moses talked with God face to face.

Aaron and his priesthood had to do hours of daily ritural to clense themselves and then only the high priest could go into the holy of holies and only once a year.

But Moses stood in his dirty sandals before God  and talked with Him as one talks to a friend.




18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

 20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
 [Heb 12]