Author Topic: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus  (Read 2308 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« on: December 01, 2010, 02:32:02 AM »
Luke 16:19-31

 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Assertion:  This is an actual story that proves hell exists, it is eternal, and sinners go there.  Even if it's a parable, Jesus didn't talk about things that didn't/wouldn't really happen.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 05:31:51 PM »
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Does this mean that all those who recieves good things, gets rich, and prospers, will go to a place of torment; and that all who recieve evil things like Lazarus will be comforted in a place called Abrahams Bosom?  :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 05:58:53 PM »


In this reply I am addressing noted assertion concerning a parable.

The assertion is simply false, if it is a parable, then the literal story is not the message being converyed and that is a plain fact of a parable.



Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 07:22:47 PM »

In this reply I am addressing the assertion that it is a real story that proves hell exists.

Not only does the passage not mention hell it is a parable because Jesus started here speaking in a parable.

 Lk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,


There is no defining scripture that suggests it is anything but a parable. 





Offline marie glen

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 11:00:15 PM »

In this reply I am addressing the assertion that it is a real story that proves hell exists.

Not only does the passage not mention hell it is a parable because Jesus started here speaking in a parable.

 Lk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,


There is no defining scripture that suggests it is anything but a parable.

I agree with this! It's a parable.. an allegory.. :bigGrin:
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process? by the end of judgement age, veRy few to cleansing in LOF?
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- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

pickr

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 12:39:10 AM »
I think it is Preston Eby that has a pretty thorough dissertation on this parable.

In a nutshell, he argues that Lazarus (Eleazar in Hebrew, meaning "He whom God helps") is representative of the Gentiles, while the rich man is Judah (five brothers, clothed in the purple of kingship, called "son" by Abraham, etc.)

You may find it here:

http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 11:34:41 AM »
Lazarus and the Rich man already happend because Jesus said:  Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar
So it's a parable because Jesus was the First Fruits. The first one to rise from the dead.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyIrvinDamboiseII

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 03:59:11 AM »
Luke 16:19-31

 


Assertion:  This is an actual story that proves hell exists, it is eternal, and sinners go there.  Even if it's a parable, Jesus didn't talk about things that didn't/wouldn't really happen.

             
The Teaching of the Parable[/size]

   But what does the parable teach?  That the Jewish nation, and especially the Scribes and Pharisees were about to die as a power, as a church, as a controlling influence in the world; while the common people among them and the Gentiles outside of them were to be exalted in the new order of things.  The details of the parable show this; "There was a rich man clothed in purple and fine linen" In these first words, by describing their very costume, the Savor fixed the attention of his hearers on the Jewish priesthood.  They were emphatically the rich man of that nation.  His description of the beggar was equally graphic.  He lay at the gate of the rich, only asking to be fed by the crumbs that fell from the table. Thus dependent were the common people, and the Gentiles on the Scribes and Pharisees.  We remember how Christ once rebuked them for shutting up the kingdom of heaven against these.  They lay at the gate of the Jewish hierarchy.  For the Gentiles were literally restricted to the outer court of the temple.  Hence in Rev. 11;12 we read:" But the court, which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles."  They could only walk in the outer temple.  This is the significance of the language of the Canaanitish woman, Matt 15:27, who desired the Savor to heal her daughter.  The Savor, to try her faith, said: "It is not meet to cast the children's bread to the dogs" She replied, "Truth Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their Mater's table."  The prophet{ Isa. 1:6 } represents the common people of Israel as "full of wounds, bruises, and putrefying sores." The brief, graphic descriptions given by the Savior, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation on the one hand and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.
   The rich man died and was buried. This class died officially, nationally and its power departed.  The kingdom of God's dear son where is neither Jew nor Greek, 2004 years ago at His cross, but where all are one in Christ Jesus. This is the meaning of the expression "Abraham's boson."  They accept the true faith and so became one with faithful Abraham.







 










Abraham is called the father of the faithful and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles would accept Christianity and become Christian nations, enjoying the blessing of the Christian faith.  What is meant by the torment of the rich man?  The misery of those proud men, when soon after their land was captured and their city and temple possessed by barbarians. And they scattered chaff before the wind -a condition in which they have continued from that day to this. All efforts to bless them with Christianity have proved unavailing.  At this very moment there is a great gulf fixed so that there is no passing to and fro.  And observe, the Jews do not desire the gospel.  Nor did the rich man ask to enter Abraham's bosom with Lazarus.  He only wished Lazarus to alleviate his sufferings by dipping in water and cooling his tongue.
   It is so with the Jews today.  They do not desire the gospel: they only ask those among whom they sojourn ( dwell ), to tolerate them and soften the hardships that accompany their wanderings,  The Jewish church and nation is now dead,  Once they were exalted to heaven, but now they are thrust down to Hadees, the kingdom of death, and the gulf that yawns between them and the Gentiles shall not be abolished till the fullness of the Gentiles shall come in, and "then Israel shall be saved." 
   Lightfoot says: "The main scope and design of it seems this: to hint the destruction of the unbelieving, Jews, who, though they had Moses and the Prophets, Did not believe them, they would not believe though one ( JC ) rose from the dead.
   Our quotations are NOT from Universalists, but from those who accepted the doctrine of eternal punishment, but who were forced to confess that this parable has no reference to that subject.  The rich man of the Jews were and are in the same   Hell  in which David was when he said: "The pains of Hell ( Hadees)  got hold of me, I found trouble and sorrow," and "thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Hell."  Not in endless woe in the future world,  but in misery and suffering in this world-------- ( age )   
But is this a final condition?  NO, wherever, we locate it,it must END….

   A Rising Son Ministries, retyped by Me, By .Hanson, The Bible Hell.
found at tentmaker.org

HartleyIrvinDamboiseII

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Re: Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man and Lazarus
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 04:27:31 AM »
I don't remember where the post was for this article so I am pasting it here, it is worth reading , honest

The parable of the Sower
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed in his field:  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares
among the wheat, and went his way.  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth
fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,
 Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field?  From whence then hath it tares?  He said unto
 them, An enemy hath done this.  The servant said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(Matt.13:24-30) 

   We have always been taught that the wheat was the good folks-- those who went in an alter call, those who had received Jesus-- and the tare was the unbeliever, the sinner, and the reprobate.  However, the good seed and tare was sown in the same field.   
   He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angles.  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.  The son of man shall send forth his angels, and shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which so iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:37-42 )
   Jesus said that a man went and sowed good seed in his field.  The field represents the ground, and we know that man was formed from the dust of the ground.  The good seed that was sown in the ground was the children of the Kingdom, the seed of God, the spirit of man.  And while men slept, the enemy came and sowed the tare.  The tare that enemy sowed was the carnal man, the carnal mentality, the carnal mind, and the carnal thinking.  The tare is the false identity that you received by coming into the physical realm.  The tare is the seed of the serpent.
   You are a spiritual being on a human journey; but because of "the fall," you awoke in this physical realm not knowing where you came from, not knowing who you were or what your destiny was.  Although the Lord sowed good seed in the field (in your earth, in your ground), while you slept in this death state, the enemy came and sowed the tare of the carnal mind, the human personality.  And so, all your life, you were raised by your parents and teachers to think of yourself as something that was separate from God.  In reality, you could never be separate from God because you were created from His substance.  You are only separated in your darkened mind and understanding.  This is why you need to be regenerated.  You came out of God and are returning to God.  You were totally lost to your true identity through physical birth, and you were then told by religion that, to gain access to God, you must perform a certain way to gain His favor so that you can go to heaven when you die.
   The truth is that religion is also the tare.  The tare looks just like the wheat while it is growing.  Religious leaders want to control you and keep you in subjection to them. Believe me, religion is all about control.  It comes in many forms.  It sounds so good and right.  They say, "You need a covering over you, and we are that covering.  You must look to us because we are the bishops (or the pastors or the prophets), and we can hear God; but you are just a child and must look to us, your covering. We know what is best for you."  When you accept this kind of mentality, you come into religious Bondage.
Whenever you subject yourself to anyone`s control, you have just put yourself into prison.  You will stay there as long as you refuse to take the time to discover God within you, like Luke 17:21.  When you discover God within you and you learn to trust Him, He becomes your teacher.  Anytime anyone points you to anyone but Jesus as your example, you need to RUN from that person.  They will control you by telling you what to read and/or not to read, who to listen to or turn away from.  After all, they say, "We are the watchman on the wall, and we must tell you what to do.  We must warn you about so and so."  They usurp the Holy Spirit's control over you, and many let them do so.  Jesus said, "When He the Spirit of truth is come, HE will guide you in ALL truth."  Many are afraid of the truth because they have  submitted themselves to man's control; and when the Spirit begins to reveal truth to them, their religious leaders tell them it is deception.  NEVER let a man or woman control you.  I am not telling you that you should not ever take advice from another person, but you should never let another person exercise control over you and tell you what you must do.  For instance, many say you must be in a traditional church setting to really please God.  Some are even saying today that we need to go back to all the religious rituals with robes and candles.  If you feel that this is what the Spirit would have you do, then by all means do so; but do not let man convince you that you must do this to gain godliness in your life.  The truth is that, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."  (Matt. 18:20)  We should not forsake  the assembling of ourselves together for  fellowship, but it does not have to be in a traditional setting.  I do not mean  by this that we should not have churches.  I wish we had more of them teaching the principles of the Kingdom.
   Many people like this bondage because they are too lazy to shake themselves and wake up to the truth.  Also, religion causes you to fear your true identity.  "How could you, a mortal man, make yourself as God ?"  they will say.   This is what they said to Jesus, and this is what they will say to you when you begin to wake up to your true nature and identity.  So many people have struggled all their life with the carnal mentality, trying to make themselves godly, not knowing that they are fast in a mistaken identity.  That mistaken identity will never be God.  The mistaken identity is the abomination of desolation that sits in the temple, [in Humans ], of God, ruling as a carnal man instead of submitting to the spiritual man.   The answer to the sin problem is to discover that you are a spiritual being and that you have the life, the nature, and the character of God.  We are His offspring, His children.  How could we be anything less than what He is in His nature ?
   Well, that is why God is saying today.  "I will take you back to where you were in Me before the fall of man.  I'll restore your soul." 
 
And that is where the problem is, because the carnal mind abides in the soulish realm--in our mind, our will, and our emotions.  The scriptures tell us that the natural man---the carnal mind---cannot receive the things of God.  It is absolutely impossible! That is why we have such a mass in the world today-- because carnal men have been trying to figure this out for years.  " My God, what do we need to do to get God to show up ?  What do we need to do to bring some unity into the church ?"  Men with carnal minds---good men---have devised hundreds and thousands of different kinds of religions and practices and ways and means and methods to be godly and to be filled with the Spirit and to be healed and to be prosperous and so many other things.  There are thousands of methods and teachings, and all they do is stir up our carnal mentality and keep us in that realm where we are trying to take a carnal consciousness and make it godly.
   Imagine, if you will, waking up one morning to your true identity.  You realize as the scripture says, "As He is, so are we in this world"  ( 1 John 4:17 )  Imagine what you would be like with this realization.  I remember reading Madam Guyon's autobiography.  She had many years of tribulation and much suffering, spending a lot of time in prison locked up by the church of her day for her faith.  But after years of suffering, she said, " I woke up one morning, and my soul had become like the New Jerusalem."  She woke up one morning in God's likeness and image.  And from that time, miraculous things began to happen in her ministry.  That is what has to happen to all of us.  We must WAKE UP  to our true selves and put on the mind of Christ and begin to reconcile all of creation back to God.  This is why I have repeatedly said that, all across the world, in all religions, in all nationalities, in all cultures, the Spirit of the living God is beginning to stir in the hearts of men and women everywhere.  We must realize the true nature of every person is that they are a spiritual being.  The majority of them have lost their true identity and the realization of why they came to this earth.
      In the parable of the sower, it is said, "Let Both grow together,"  but at the end of the age, God's
angels will come and separate the wheat from the tares.  That is what is happening NOW. But before the wheat and the tare can be separated within you---before God can remove the tare of your human identity---you have to have some understanding and some revelation to be able to go through what you have to go through to have that tare removed.  That is part of the reason why there is so much discouragement today among God's people.  They are going through some horrible fires of tribulation to remove the tare of human reasoning and religious and worldly thinking. We are at the end of an age, and the dawning of a new age.  God will arise within a people on the earth that are going to shine with the glory and the manifestation of God such as has never been seen before.  This is the beginning stage NOW.
   I wish that people everywhere could see what I see.  I don't experience a lot of it yet, but God is removing the veil from my eyes.  You need to understand that you are a spiritual person—you are not a carnal human being.  You may be carnal, and you may be a failure in your experience.  All of us, more or less, are failures in one way or another in the carnal realm; but you need to realize that is not who you really are.  You are a spiritual being; and in the very core, the very center of your being, you are a new creation man and woman in you have been regenerated.
   We know that the temple represents the human body (Body—Outer Court, Soul---Holy Place,
   Spirit---Holy of Holies).
So, rather than have this concept that you are in the bodily realm, or that you are in the Pentecostal realm trying to enter into the Holy Place , you need to have your eyes unveiled to realize that you are a spiritual being.  Your spirit abides in the presence of Almighty God.  When you begin to minister from that realm, you will experience the renewing of your soul.  "I'll take you back to where you were in Me before the fall of man."   These are your roots in Genesis 1. "I'll restore your soul."  When your soul is restored, you begin to manifest as a son or daughter of God.
                                                                                          Two Mysteries
In another song, Linda wrote, "God's seed is in all humanity.  You may not see it, but it's there.  Within us there lies a great mystery,"  There are two great mysteries in the earth today--- the mystery of godliness(God taking on human flesh) and the mystery of iniquity.  Many people think the antichrist is a person who is going to be an incarnation of satin and will one day rule the world.  However, antichrist is the tare that was sown in the field.  The antichrist is the human personality, that carnalmindedness that was sown in your field of All Humans.

Retyped by Lee Damboise II