Author Topic: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?  (Read 6772 times)

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clayton

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How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« on: May 25, 2011, 12:00:31 AM »
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the board. I need some advice.

 My adult Sunday school class this coming weekend may touch on the Lake of Fire. The lesson book we are using treats it in the traditional way. I've never brought up in class or in church my own growing belief in UR and I am a little nervous about contradicting the orthodox view of the LoF. Any advice would be greatly appreciated on how I might GENTLY present a, let's say, differing viewpoint on the LoF without turning off folks who have probably never heard of such ideas.

Thank you in advance and I am very happy to be here. I hope I can contribute something to the board in the future.


Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 12:21:36 AM »
Clayton,

Just make sure you are ready to accept the consequences of bringing something like that up.  Many in leadership could see you as a threat, and a heretic.  People have been kicked out of church for much less.  If that is a risk you are willing to take there are many topics on here about the LoF.  I would do a search and go through them. 

Online jabcat

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 01:45:04 AM »
Over the past bit of believing in UR, and various attempts at sharing it, I've come to these thoughts;

easy does it;

perhaps "prime the pump" instead of tipping over the whole barrel;

i.e., "there are many things we've believed that bear further consideration.  There are mistranstralations of some key words having to do with eternal destiny (aion, gehenna) that affect our views of [the Lake of Fire, etc.]."     AND THE KICKER - "I believe there are many scriptures, when looked at in an accurate translation and keeping the above in mind, say that God's punishment is corrective - and He says in Habbakkuk, 'I will not cast off forever' ".   A good place to check this out further is ________/ I recommend reading________".

If you get "too far" into this, be prepared to never be seen the same way as before, and for your life to change.  The desert is a "lonely" place - but that is often where He calls us to and hence walks with us the closest.

Blessings, James.

PaoloNuevo

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 05:14:16 AM »
J. Preston Eby, LOF:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/lakeoffire.html

Forever and Ever; a Poor Translation - from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS: Louis Abbott

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »
Hi and welcome Clayton,

Reread Shawn's answer a dozen of times...
If you go down the path make sure you know "everything".
Classic verses will be used to refute your view.
Matthew 25:46 ==> Clayton are you saying eternal life isn't eternal either?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2011, 10:45:51 PM »
Hi and welcome Clayton,

Reread Shawn's answer a dozen of times...
If you go down the path make sure you know "everything".
Classic verses will be used to refute your view.
Matthew 25:46 ==> Clayton are you saying eternal life isn't eternal either?

I second that.
I made the mistake of trying to promote UR when I wasn't ready for it yet.
In the end I ran out of arguments, and the ET crowd thought they got me.
So practically I probably made more harm than good to our cause.
Sorry about that, folks...

Having said that... I do not know if you're ready or not. Maybe you really are. After all I do not know you at all.
I'm just saying that if you're going to take that step, be sure you have enough Scripture under your belt.
At least do read Martin Zender's (or Aldai Loudy's, or some other UR scholar's) take on Matthew 25:46.
Since that it THE PASSAGE that is going to be used to refute your case. I only speak from experience.

EDIT:

You could also take a look at the "God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross" link in my sig.
Read the testimony, and take a look at the diagram.
The chances are it'll explain a lot of stuff for you.
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline dboutwell

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 08:58:49 AM »
Definitely what Shawn said!  If you keep studying Universal reconciliation, it won't be very long until you will have a larger view of it that is connected with just about anything a "naysayer" can bring up.
Debbie :)
Blessings :)

Debbie

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 05:24:27 PM »
bibletruths.com  or  bible-truths.com

http://not1lost.blogspot.com/
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 05:40:08 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Texas Son

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »
Most traditional ET's will intentionally walk in darkness unless the Lord illuminates the truth for them as He had done for me a few years back.

Here is one Scripture I use to get them to at least think though:

In Revelation Jesus is talking to the seven church's. To each He gives encouragement and admonishment. He also says "he who overcomes" and then shares a particular reward. Remember, He is talking to the Church's, so the ones He calls "overcomers" are specifically called out from the Church.

Sooo... in Revelation 2:11 Jesus says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." Notice, He did not say they would not enter the second death, only they would not be "hurt" by it.

What is the "second death"? It is the Lake of Fire of course! (Revelation 20:14, and Revelation 21:8)

The second death, is simply death to death. We are already in death now in this life. When we are saved, we enter into Christ's life. We are born out of death into Life. Those who do not claim His Life in this life, will enter the second death, to die to death. It is God's purifying fire.

Notice the Church is not exempt from the "second death" or Lake of Fire. Even the elect will enter into God's all consuming fire, yet they will not be "hurt" or "injured" for they have already been purified and purged of any carnal nature.

One other Scripture I have recently been studying is Isaiah 33:14,14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. Who among us can live with the consuming fire" Who among us can live with continual burning? (The answer in verse 15) "He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain, and shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed, and shuts his eyes from looking upon evil".

Notice, the question is "who can live with the consuming fire", or KJV I believe says "who can dwell in the consuming fire?" It does not say the righteous will be outside of the fire. Indeed we will be in the presence of God where no carnal or fleshy thing will stand. This is the Lake of Fire.

Offline CHB

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 05:25:30 PM »
I like what you said.  :thumbsup:

CHB

clayton

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 03:48:44 PM »
Thanks everyone,

I meant to reply earlier but I have been so busy following some of these links you have given me.

 It's Sunday morning and I am just going to let things take their course in the Bible study.  IF and only IF the LoF subject comes up and people start railing on about ET I don't think I can just sit there and say NOTHING. This awful lie that makes our loving Father into a sadistic monster has to be opposed.

I'm not going to try to win the war all by myself in one little Sunday morning Bible study but maybe I can plant a little humble seed in somebody's mind. Who knows what a seed can grow in to?

I'm thinking I will just remind the class that scripture often uses fire to symbolize God's chastening and purifying and have a couple verses ready if called on to back it up. If the discussion begins to turn toward me and what I've said then I will remind everyone that the overall lesson is not about the Lof and let it go at that.

Thanks again.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 05:24:55 PM »
Clayton, another approach is to use their own words against them. No frontal attacks but guide them a liitle with questions so they start thinking. Like: I really loved lastr month sermon about God having ultimate power to make His will be done. But I couldn't sleep of last week's sermon that seems to say satan is stealing most people against God's will. I searched and searched my Bible for many hours last week but I couldn't figure out how an almighty God can loose 95% of what He desires. ==> http://home.online.nl/spamfree/christian_double_talk.htm

The Matthew 25:46 verse is a lot harder to answer directly. It involves things that can be debated for ages without agreeing. In that case adding another set of clear verses to the mix may be the way to go: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_after_death_comes_judgement_9660.0.html
 

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/molten_sea.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/fire.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ur%20in%202%20verses.htm


Most classic argumensts are discussed on this forum. Just start a topic about your pastor's favorite topic and I'm sure people will give you some good verses and links.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 06:16:19 PM »
Thanks everyone,

I meant to reply earlier but I have been so busy following some of these links you have given me.

 It's Sunday morning and I am just going to let things take their course in the Bible study.  IF and only IF the LoF subject comes up and people start railing on about ET I don't think I can just sit there and say NOTHING. This awful lie that makes our loving Father into a sadistic monster has to be opposed.

I'm not going to try to win the war all by myself in one little Sunday morning Bible study but maybe I can plant a little humble seed in somebody's mind. Who knows what a seed can grow in to?

I'm thinking I will just remind the class that scripture often uses fire to symbolize God's chastening and purifying and have a couple verses ready if called on to back it up. If the discussion begins to turn toward me and what I've said then I will remind everyone that the overall lesson is not about the Lof and let it go at that.

Thanks again.

I'll let you know how it goes.

I think this is a terrific approach.  We plants seeds, and God grows.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 09:36:53 PM »
I like what you said.  :thumbsup:

CHB


Double that  :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Online jabcat

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2011, 09:56:17 PM »
Most traditional ET's will intentionally walk in darkness unless the Lord illuminates the truth for them as He had done for me a few years back.

Here is one Scripture I use to get them to at least think though:

In Revelation Jesus is talking to the seven church's. To each He gives encouragement and admonishment. He also says "he who overcomes" and then shares a particular reward. Remember, He is talking to the Church's, so the ones He calls "overcomers" are specifically called out from the Church.

Sooo... in Revelation 2:11 Jesus says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." Notice, He did not say they would not enter the second death, only they would not be "hurt" by it.

What is the "second death"? It is the Lake of Fire of course! (Revelation 20:14, and Revelation 21:8)

The second death, is simply death to death. We are already in death now in this life. When we are saved, we enter into Christ's life. We are born out of death into Life. Those who do not claim His Life in this life, will enter the second death, to die to death. It is God's purifying fire.

Notice the Church is not exempt from the "second death" or Lake of Fire. Even the elect will enter into God's all consuming fire, yet they will not be "hurt" or "injured" for they have already been purified and purged of any carnal nature.

One other Scripture I have recently been studying is Isaiah 33:14,14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. Who among us can live with the consuming fire" Who among us can live with continual burning? (The answer in verse 15) "He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain, and shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed, and shuts his eyes from looking upon evil".

Notice, the question is "who can live with the consuming fire", or KJV I believe says "who can dwell in the consuming fire?" It does not say the righteous will be outside of the fire. Indeed we will be in the presence of God where no carnal or fleshy thing will stand. This is the Lake of Fire.

Good post.  The bolded is how I see it and have shared it as well.  There is still one thing about it that gives me pause though;  the scripture that says the Lake of Fire was prepared "for the devil and his angels".  Anyone have insight into that?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 12:56:35 AM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:......Devil and his angels = a head and a body that is adversarial to THE Head and His body. Nothing is ever completely destroyed with God, including the smithy HE created to be an adversary for HIS purposes. God is a consuming fire and all it does is turn whatever is not like Him, into something that IS like Him. In centuries past, men wasted a lot of time trying to turn base things into gold. God turns everything into gold, ie. His nature, which is witnessed by the furniture of the Most Holy being composed of gold. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Texas Son

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 06:41:58 AM »
:cloud9: My  :2c:......Devil and his angels = a head and a body that is adversarial to THE Head and His body. Nothing is ever completely destroyed with God, including the smithy HE created to be an adversary for HIS purposes. God is a consuming fire and all it does is turn whatever is not like Him, into something that IS like Him. In centuries past, men wasted a lot of time trying to turn base things into gold. God turns everything into gold, ie. His nature, which is witnessed by the furniture of the Most Holy being composed of gold. Blessings.....

Amen!

I see satan or the devil as a spirit of religiosity within each of us. I don't know if the devil is as much of an entity as a spirit within man that tries to usurp God which began in the garden. The Lake of Fire was meant to burn off anything apart from God's image within us. The spirit of satan and his like messengers (angels) will be burnt out of the heaven and earth within each of us.


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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 01:04:08 AM »
Notice, the question is "who can live with the consuming fire", or KJV I believe says "who can dwell in the consuming fire?" It does not say the righteous will be outside of the fire. Indeed we will be in the presence of God where no carnal or fleshy thing will stand. This is the Lake of Fire.

Good post.  The bolded is how I see it and have shared it as well.  There is still one thing about it that gives me pause though;  the scripture that says the Lake of Fire was prepared "for the devil and his angels".  Anyone have insight into that?

Anyone have input on the Lake of Fire being cleansing, yet "prepared for the devil and his angels"?

Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 01:59:23 AM »
Notice, the question is "who can live with the consuming fire", or KJV I believe says "who can dwell in the consuming fire?" It does not say the righteous will be outside of the fire. Indeed we will be in the presence of God where no carnal or fleshy thing will stand. This is the Lake of Fire.

Good post.  The bolded is how I see it and have shared it as well.  There is still one thing about it that gives me pause though;  the scripture that says the Lake of Fire was prepared "for the devil and his angels".  Anyone have insight into that?

Anyone have input on the Lake of Fire being cleansing, yet "prepared for the devil and his angels"?

It shouldn't be an issue for those who believe the devil and his angels will also be cleansed and forgiven.  For me, it still makes me uncomfortable saying God will eventually reconcil the devil.

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 02:06:40 AM »
That's what I see too Shawn.  However, I'm personally "OK" with God reconciling the devil, I see other ramifications there - as in, it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels, not men?  (I don't believe God went to a Plan B when mankind "ruined" His Plan A, so then I'm not sure how that all fits together.)   One writer I saw said the angels are messengers (which is what it technically means) and stated they are the preachers in the pulpits (and others in orthodoxy?) who are preaching a failed/weak God with an eternal torment. (!)      That was Mike Vinson (www.iswaswillbe.com).

Offline shawn

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 05:58:08 AM »
That's what I see too Shawn.  However, I'm personally "OK" with God reconciling the devil, I see other ramifications there - as in, it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels, not men?  (I don't believe God went to a Plan B when mankind "ruined" His Plan A, so then I'm not sure how that all fits together.)   One writer I saw said the angels are messengers (which is what it technically means) and stated they are the preachers in the pulpits (and others in orthodoxy?) who are preaching a failed/weak God with an eternal torment. (!)      That was Mike Vinson (www.iswaswillbe.com).

It's not that I am against anything God wants to do...will do or is doing.  It's just an uncomfortable stance for me.

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 06:09:22 AM »
I think I understand.  I'm just not getting past the "prepared for" part, especially since I don't believe in a Plan B in God's intent.   :scratchhead:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 08:37:02 AM »
Anyone have input on the Lake of Fire being cleansing, yet "prepared for the devil and his angels"?
Before that question can be answered two (three) other questions need to be answered.
a] What is LoF?
b] What is an angel (and devil)

We had that discussion before but it faded away...  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Texas Son

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Re: How can I refute traditional concept of LoF?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 04:14:17 PM »
Anyone have input on the Lake of Fire being cleansing, yet "prepared for the devil and his angels"?
Before that question can be answered two (three) other questions need to be answered.
a] What is LoF?
b] What is an angel (and devil)

We had that discussion before but it faded away...  :winkgrin:

Good questions WhiteWings.

My personal opinion about satan and his angels is that they are not "beings" but are spirits within us that drive us to religious doctrines, rituals, traditions and ceremonies which bypass and usurp God.

If you notice in the Garden of Eden, Adam never saw the serpent, nor did he accuse satan before God for his fall. He blamed woman. I believe the conversation between the serpent and Eve was in the heavens of Eve's mind.

Scripture says that the serpent was "more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made".   It doesn't say that the serpent was "made" just that he was "more crafty". Indeed satan is more crafty because it is a spirit within us that knows just where to strike for the best effect. It makes us question God and challenge His supremacy. When we are found to be "naked" we begin trying to clothes ourselves in religious acts to make ourselves presentable before God. Yet it is still all of "self" which is the seat or carnal thought.

Even pronouncing sentence on the serpent, I believe God is making him lower than any cattle or beast of the field that roam within our nature. The serpent will eat of the dust of which we came and always bring us the earthy thoughts rather than heavenly.

There is no need for satan or these fallen angels to be "saved" because they are only part of our corrupt fallen nature.

Just my  :2c: worth.

May