Author Topic: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment  (Read 6847 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« on: December 01, 2010, 02:17:51 AM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Offline marie glen

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 12:40:55 AM »
1 Thessalonians chapter 4, especially verses 13 and 14, answers the question New Testament believers had concerning believers who had now died before the return of Jesus. Paul wrote that these ones were asleep in aJesus and would return with Jesus at His return. Verses 15 and 16 tell us those thus awakened will precede Jesus' gathering to Himself His elect at His return (cross reference Matthew 24:27,29-31). This of course is the first resurrection, also spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, when believers will "put on immortality" which I presume means immortality will not be put on earlier, namely at each individual's death.

The "Judgment Seat of Christ" occurs at, or follows this first resurrection when believers will receive rewards, etc. So die, then judgment.

All unbelievers will be resurrected in the second resurrection after the millennial reign of Jesus, the second advent (literal like the first). And of course we know Judgment Day follows that resurrection. Die, then the judgment. But surely the day of examining/judging all things, all human history, etc will be a very long day. And by the end of that (day) when God says "those not believing will go to the second death" who is not going to believe?

Why would there be conviction and sentence passed upon those who never even "heard" the gospel, which will be a large part of the second resurrection. "How will they hear unless they are told?" Romans 10:14. It defies logic and scripture such as "God is love" 1 John 4:8 and "God desires all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9.
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
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http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline legoman

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 08:53:45 PM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the verse that is used to "prove" that no one can be saved after death.

The false premise is that judgment is quote a "bad thing" that is to be avoided - it is simply a synonym for eternal punishment.

The truth is that God uses judgment for a good thing - Isaiah 26:9 gives us an example: when God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.  That is what judgment does.

Judgment means to make a decision about a situation, upon which a resolution is given which will set things right.  So the participants of this process will learn what is right by understanding the decision and what was done wrong.  ie. they learn what righteousness is - righteousness is doing the right thing.

Therefore this verse is proof that everyone will ultimately learn what is right. (ie. righteousness).  Everyone will learn this through judgment - for everyone is judged, either here and now or after death.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:03:10 PM by legoman »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 09:36:01 PM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the verse that is used to "prove" that no one can be saved after death.

The false premise is that judgment is quote a "bad thing" that is to be avoided - it is simply a synonym for eternal punishment.
Even if judgement is  a bad thing it doesn't automaticly mean it's an everlasting thing.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Nil Recurring

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 12:12:32 AM »
Exactly...we have judges on earth and when they do judge someone it is often to a temporary punishment.

The parable of the debtor in Matthew 18 even says: 32Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

There's an example right there of someone being judged and found guilty, but his punishment is not forever, it is simply until he pays back what he owes.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 12:27:36 AM »
This verse has allways been against the idea of reincarnation, because a man only lives once then the judgment. But it has occured to me that perhaps the man that dies, is Adam, in Adam we all die, so we are all spiritually dead until the judgment, the white throne judgment where we will be written in the lambs book of life.

So with this in mind it can then be possible to physically die many times, because that's not what the verse is possibly warning against, but is talking about a spiritual death, which we all are, until we are judged through christ.

 :2c:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 05:41:00 PM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This verse is used along with a couple of doctrinal assumptions asserted to be absolutely true.

1. That you must believe in christ before you die from earth
2. Judgment along with #1 carries the assumption that if you die not believing in Christ then you are judged to eternal misery.

The verse in and of itself poses no problems to all men being saved because this verses meaning is only supported by the context in which a persons doctrinal position rests.

In other words, this verse is not a proof text for any doctrinal stance, the verses meaning is DEFINED by a doctrinal position.







GalanSRQ

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 09:31:34 PM »
Another assumption is that "the judgment" is the NEXT event in that person's after-life experience, whereas perhaps it is merely an eventual event.  As the old song goes, "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Not that I have worked through any changes in my understanding of future events as a result of  recently embracing "ultimate reconciliation," but......if I say I'm driving from New York City to Washington, D.C., that may include a stop in Philadelphia and a stop in Baltimore.  I still end up in D.C., but D.C> isn't the ONLY and NEXT stop on the trip.



Bob

Offline Pierac

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 11:56:49 PM »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 01:00:49 AM »
Wow  :mshock: many bits and pieces that resonate with me, it's nice to see someone who also as the same revelations. I said somehwere on this forum that there were 7 or 8 judgments that man has to go through since Adam. If only i could keep up with what God is doing, he's way to fast for me in terms of revelations, it seems that many in the body of Christ are also receiving many revelations in these days, not just the preachers and the big shots, put the common simple folk, glory to God who loves the meek. It's good that he loves the meek, we people tend to love those who are great in the world, charismatic, Intelligent etc, but God gives time for all people, which is amazing to think that someone with Gods intelligence would want to spend time with people who are so dumb and simple as us. But God loves the simple things in life, e.g bread  :bigGrin: 


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 06:43:05 AM »
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:12-16)

In Hebrews 9:27 there is nothing at all that implicates ET or ED. It simply says that man is given one life, and at death the sum of it will be judged. Note: it does not say "then comes the condemnation". The word used for judgment is "krisis" which refers to an objective tribunal. This is further explained by Paul to the Romans where he clearly states that "on the day" (the day of the Lord comes like a thief- death is the thief, and no man knows the day or the hour) - in that day everyone will be tried by the record of their own conscience(the deeds written in the book- the book is the conscience, that is why we need our "heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience")- THEIR CONSCIENCE EITHER ACCUSING THEM OR DEFENDING THEM.


 Why is this? It is because only God knows the secrets of men's hearts. WHY DO YOU GO ON JUDGING BEFORE THE TIME! Only when those eyes that are as flames of fire burn through all the darkness to purge the soul hiding from the light will it be known- Who was that good and faithful servant?

Maybe NOT the Pharisee or the Levite or the Baptist preacher or the Pentecostal deacon! Maybe the unknowing Samaritan whose conscience will DEFEND him in the presence of God when the words ring out, "I was beaten and left for dead by the side of the road and you helped me", "I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was naked and you clothed me".

When the eye is dark the whole body is full of darkness. Because we always condemn, when we hear the word "judgment", we hear the concept of condemnation. This is the log in our corporate eye. So, we cannot see that judgment is about the discernment of God, the "whys" of God.We forget that judgment and mercy have met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other, and that mercy triumphs over judgment. Because our deeds are evil we attribute to God our own image.

First get the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see the splinter in anothers eye, and you will say, "Forgive them Father".... and maybe then He will give you permission to remove the splinter, because it is causing them pain and hurting their vision.

If you find a brother in a fault, "those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering your own selves....."

"Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved  ON THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!"  This fire is about restoration. This is the same day of Romans 2:12-16.  Jesus is that DAY.  "I am the light of the world". The DAY is the FIRE that CONSUMES THE DARKNESS.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:13-15) Again, this fire is about restoration. The first to feel the fire will be those who condemn others.

These judges who want to place everyone in an eternal hell ought to search the scriptures because they are building wood, hay and stubble- misrepresenting the eternal power and divine nature of God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
(Rom 1:18-20)

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness cannot understand it. Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory, the exact representation of His nature. Behold, I am making all things new!

Their is judgment and there is chastisement but.....It is all always eventually about restoration. "For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21)

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)

Not all in some, all in ALL, even these enemies who have now been subjected.

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the completion of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. (Eph 1:9-10)

Summed up..... gathered into one(NASB). Why?... so that God may be all in all. How?... Through the blood of His cross

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:19-20)

When? When time is completed.....When the last enemy, death is subjected.

 Who? ALL, as it is written, because it cannot be less than all if the Word of God is true. This was His original plan and purpose, the mystery of the gospel.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:32-36)

Yes, it is given to every man once to die and then come the judgment. That judgment is the light of day, the fire in the eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts". For some that judgment will be, "Well done you good and faithful servant, enter the joy of your Lord". For some it will be 30 fold, for some 60 and for some 100. For some it will be 5 cities, for some 10 talents. For some it will be a few stripes. For some it will be many stripes. For some it will be "Go into the fire prepared for the devil and his messengers, to be penetrated by absolute light, light as a fire that will consume the darkness, till every knee bow and every tongue confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord". Until death is NO MORE! Neither first death or second death, because THE LAST ENEMY TO BE SUBJECTED IS DEATH.
 BEHOLD, I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!




« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 07:14:10 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 08:51:11 AM »
This is another terrible proof text to prove that there is no chance after death.  However why are there no other text to assert that once one dies, your eternal fate is sealed?  It seems like a pretty important matter than to dedicate one scripture.  This is the popular line the Street Preacher makes when he starts his long rants "The bible says it is appointed for men once to die and after this the Judgment"  Yet that is the only piece of scripture they can acknowledge when they proceed to their carnal rants.  So if "One Chanceism" can only be supported by carnal reasoning, then its not worth even considering. 

Plus even satan can twist scriptures, but the Holy Spirit has the power to untangle satans knots.

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So, are you saying then
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 09:21:11 PM »
 That  Hebrews 9;27 does NOT by itself  Rule Out Universalism :dunno2:

Offline shawn

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Re: So, are you saying then
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2012, 05:01:53 PM »
That  Hebrews 9;27 does NOT by itself  Rule Out Universalism :dunno2:

Is that  a question or a statement?  No, that verse doesn't rule out universalism.  What it states is there is a judgment after death.  Most  believers believe that to be true.  The purpose of the judgment is what we tend to disagree upon.  Is the judgment punative and permanent in nature.  Is that consistent with agape love or the Bible in the original languages?  Or is the judgment corrective in nature?  Take everything you have been taught and brainwashed with since you were a wee tot out of this...just think which one makes more sense.  One makes no sense...the other makes perfect sense. 

Offline Rhodes

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 12:50:28 PM »
Without having read through the thread, I believe that there is no need to assume that this verse teaches an instant judgment for those who die. Not when you consider that other verses teach a waiting period still future, when God will judge the world in righteousness...

Quote
Act 17:31  because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Even Revelation teaches the same...
Quote
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

The souls of the dead were asleep in ther grave/Hades waiting for the resurrection. The judgment will set them free from their fleshly rebellion as the fire of God deals with it...in love...purifying and purging them.
An Aussie who believes God is God enough, and Love enough to save all.

Offline Deena

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 01:35:36 PM »
The "judgement" is a bit of a paradox for me. If only by the Spirit and God's gift of faith does one come to believe, then why is there any judgement for believing or not believing? It is like holding someone accountable for something they can't control. If it is God who works in us by grace to teach us to deny ungodliness, if it is He who does the work, not us, then what are we being judged for? Apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus said it Himself. So what am I being judged for? If He is the author and finisher of my faith and I am trusting in Him for righteousness and strength as He calls to me to do, then what is there in me to be judged? And with those who do not yet believe, can God justly sentence people of whom He has not revealed Himself? The bible tells us that God has purosely blinded some to the truth. Can a just God hold them accountable for that? For me, the only way to settle this is with God's proclamation "I am a just God and a Savior"-- He is the Savior of all because He is a just God. We have all been subjected to futility by His will in hope. Surely He must save all or He is not a just God. So then what is being judged?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2012, 03:09:09 PM »
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 05:33:47 PM »
The "judgement" is a bit of a paradox for me. If only by the Spirit and God's gift of faith does one come to believe, then why is there any judgement for believing or not believing? It is like holding someone accountable for something they can't control. If it is God who works in us by grace to teach us to deny ungodliness, if it is He who does the work, not us, then what are we being judged for? Apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus said it Himself. So what am I being judged for? If He is the author and finisher of my faith and I am trusting in Him for righteousness and strength as He calls to me to do, then what is there in me to be judged? And with those who do not yet believe, can God justly sentence people of whom He has not revealed Himself? The bible tells us that God has purosely blinded some to the truth. Can a just God hold them accountable for that? For me, the only way to settle this is with God's proclamation "I am a just God and a Savior"-- He is the Savior of all because He is a just God. We have all been subjected to futility by His will in hope. Surely He must save all or He is not a just God. So then what is being judged?

Deena, I agree with you. I think where we misunderstand sometimes is with the word judgment. I believe judgment is not what some see as punishment. God will judge the world in righteousness. Doesn't that mean he will pronounce the world righteous because of what his Son did and not what we do or don't do? Isn't judgment handed down after the judge reviews the sentence and sometimes the case?  If Christ sacrifice covered all sin, if what he did satisfied the Father, what is there to do put pronounce us innocent of all charges?

CHB

Offline Deena

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
It seems to me that we were already judged and sentenced by Jesus: forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Would God refuse Him?

Offline CHB

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2012, 06:36:10 PM »
It seems to me that we were already judged and sentenced by Jesus: forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Would God refuse Him?

You could be right on this also. (John 5:22,27)  3:17  9:39 )
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.  (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

(3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED. {COULD THIS BE THE JUDGMENT}

(9:39) And Jesus said, for judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. (Or is this a different judgment?)

(John 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: FOR I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.

Look at verse 48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.

In Romans 14:10-12) it says that "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". Is this now or later?

CHB 

Offline Deena

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 01:39:51 PM »
That is an interesting question that leads me a bit off topic, but here goes... what is the "now" for? I can scarce endure to see so much suffering with little power to do anything. Just what is the now for? In a practical sense, I have a job and kids and have real struggles with both. I've lost several family members far too young. What is the purpose of it all? Will what we learn be useful in the next age? What are we here for?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2012, 04:40:56 PM »
We are here to love God and others Deena. Jesus grew in knowledge and he showed how much God loves us.
That's kind of our job here and now. To love and grow.
As my best friend Linus from our Peanuts comic strip says, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."
Physically and spiritually, it is resistance and difficulty which causes us to grow.
If everything were handed to us on a silver platter(which God, who can do anything could do) we would end up a pathetic excuse for a child of God. ("For everyone God loves, he chastens")
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Deena

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2012, 05:02:34 PM »
To love God and love others--amen. I guess the rest will remain a mystery.

Offline sheila

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2012, 05:05:32 PM »
ENDURANCE    REV 3;10  SINCE YOU HAVE KEPT MY COMMAND TO ENDURE PATIENTLY

  I WILL ALSO KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL THAT IS GOING TO COME UPON THE WHOLE

  WORLD TO TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH

  hEBREWS 10;34  YOU SYMPATHIZED WITH THOSE IN PRISON AND JOYFULLY ACCEPTED

  THE CONFISCATION OF YOUR PROPERTY,BECAUSE YOU KNEW THAT YOU,YOURSELVES

  HAD BETTER AND LASTING POSSESSIONS.

   SO,DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE; IT WILL BE RICHLY REWARDED.....

    YOU.....NEED....ENDURANCE............SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD...

    YOU..WILL...RECEIVE..WHAT..HE HAS  PROMISED


    NOW...FAITH..IS BEING SURE..OF WHAT..WE HOPE FOR....AND CERTAIN OF WHAT WE DO NOT SEE



    and ps deena.......I GROAN AND SORROW TOO..........the whole creation groans..............Romans 8;22-27

Offline lomarah

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 Die, Then Judgment
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2012, 05:13:46 PM »
 :HeartThrob: Lots of groaning and sorrowing going on here too lol. Til that last trump.  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.