Author Topic: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement  (Read 5797 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« on: May 19, 2011, 09:39:25 AM »
Hebrews 9: 27 And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,
---> The classic verse to prove there is no chance for salvation after death.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
---> Maybe they make fake confessions to escape hell?
---> That can only be true if the Holy Spirit inspires lies and fake confessions....
 
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.
---> That's very clear; all who kneel do so because the Holy Spirit dwells within them. So the kneeling is a genuine confession...
---> Note that this is also the case before death.
---> But maybe it's to late anyway?
 
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.
---> Short recap: Everyone will make a true confession and at that point they will be saved. Obviously mrs muslim and mr. satanist never confesed in this life. Yet they are part of "everyone".
---> Ergo there is a chance after death. Ergo salvation after death is a Holy Spirit enforced fact for those groups.

---> Finally all the above are unconditional statements. But if there is still doubt....
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I have sworn, the word has gone forth from my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess to God
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:09:58 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 09:47:34 AM »
Yes, Tony.  Very good.

One little point, that IMO, makes one of the scrips even "stronger".  I've seen a more literal translation say "IN" the Holy Spirit rather than "BY".   :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 09:51:43 AM »
All the above are from the ACV version, because it reads well.
Maybe KJV is even better? Point proven with the classic... (instead of a Universalist Bible)

BTW I see not much difference in "by" and "in" because in both cases HS is pulling the strings.
But if I have to choose I would use BY.
Just because IN can sorta point to an already believing state of the person.
But BY (for me) points to an external force taking over the person. Ruling out every bit of free will choice.

 :dontknow:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 10:11:41 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »
Nice  logical proof there that all will be saved, ww. :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online micah7:9

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 08:35:17 PM »
Very well put :bigGrin: :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 08:56:43 PM »
The weak spots that will draw attention:

ACVPhilippians 2
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of the heavenly, and the earthly, and the sub-earthly,
11 and that every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Guess I need a replacement verse without should/may.
This one is ok but not direct enough
ACV1 Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign until he will put all his enemies under his feet.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 10:26:12 PM »
That 'should bow' is not 'ought to bow.'  It's not a suggestion.

God gave him a name above every other name so that every knee should bow to him.

It means they will bow because of the condition [highest name].

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 10:56:13 PM »



Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee must bow, of things in heaven and things upon the earth and things beneath the earth,

Translation of the New Testament from the original Greek, 1902, William Godbey.

http://lookhigher.net/englishbibles/godbeytranslationofthenewtestament/philippians/2.html#v1


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 11:02:03 PM »


Phi 2:10 that in the name of Jhesu ech kne be bowid, of heuenli thingis, of ertheli thingis, and of hellis;

Wycliffe Bible, 1395, John Wycliffe

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgment
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 11:42:14 PM »
Molly: You should by now know that everything that isn't exactly as in KJV is uninspired or a UR translation.
And I agree it's no suggestion. In case there is a slight doubt it should go away when taking all verses in my post.
It's just that I want an air tight set of verses for Gary. I'm already very much convinced there isn't a single suggestion in any of the verses I posted


David: That's better. Do you also have a similar KJV verse? I just picked Phi 2:10 because that's the one that sprung to mind. But that's not necessarily the only and/or the best verse.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 11:55:01 PM »
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.     KJV

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgment
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »
 :thumbsup: Red

Romans an Phil obviously are parallel verses. So either should and shall mean the same or one of the verses is translated wrong.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgment
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 12:21:11 AM »
:thumbsup: Red

Romans an Phil obviously are parallel verses. So either should and shall mean the same or one of the verses is translated wrong.
Yes of course they mean the same thing.  The NT does not rewrite the OT.  It's just one of those idiosyncracies of English that you are running into with this usage of 'should.'


Use Red's translation for Gary if you must



 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--Phil 2

Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 12:26:23 AM »
BTW you also understand that this means the name of Jesus [Y'shuah] is above the name of Jehovah [YHWH]?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 12:31:52 AM »


Ephesians 1:10;
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:37:00 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2011, 12:37:27 AM »



Isaiah 45:23; King James Bible
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Right.  Guess who said that? :bigGrin:



Jesus, Redeemer of my soul,
O gracious God of Israel!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2011, 12:40:49 AM »


Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Offline shawn

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 12:57:02 AM »
I think the surrounding verses in Isaiah 45 (KJV) are relevant to the topic...

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

 25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


So what we clearly have here in the word every is two groups.  One group is those who opposed the Lord, and those who are considered part of Israel (believers).  The reason this is important is two fold, one is that no one should be able to say every isn't every.  And two because as part of this bowing is the group who opposed God feeling shame.  There is no mention of hellfire, but there is mention of a possible judgment and at the very least a consequence of opposing God.  Can you imagine bowing before the Creator of the universe, every sin and rebellious notion exposed?  I shutter at the thought.  But, if hell was a natural progression of these events why is it not mentioned?  Shame...then eternal hellfire.  It's interesting that there isn't even a suggestion of such a judgment here.


Offline Molly

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2011, 01:10:28 AM »
Quote
25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

And we know from Paul that those are Israel who are circumcised in heart--the children of the promise.

And one wouldn't bow to the Lord or confess his name unless one were circumcised in heart.

He is not one to force people to bow to him.  They will bow because they recognize his glory and his righteousness, and that by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, since all will bow,  all Israel will be saved meaning all will be saved.


Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2011, 01:29:56 AM »


So what we clearly have here in the word every is two groups.  One group is those who opposed the Lord, and those who are considered part of Israel (believers).  The reason this is important is two fold, one is that no one should be able to say every isn't every.  And two because as part of this bowing is the group who opposed God feeling shame.  There is no mention of hellfire, but there is mention of a possible judgment and at the very least a consequence of opposing God.  Can you imagine bowing before the Creator of the universe, every sin and rebellious notion exposed?  I shutter at the thought.  But, if hell was a natural progression of these events why is it not mentioned?  Shame...then eternal hellfire.  It's interesting that there isn't even a suggestion of such a judgment here.



I like this passage when I think about that moment
Zeph 3:8-9 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.
For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

Nations is Goyim as in gentiles

All His burning anger==> purified lips of all people
I don't see Dante's vision here


Offline shawn

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2011, 02:00:55 AM »


So what we clearly have here in the word every is two groups.  One group is those who opposed the Lord, and those who are considered part of Israel (believers).  The reason this is important is two fold, one is that no one should be able to say every isn't every.  And two because as part of this bowing is the group who opposed God feeling shame.  There is no mention of hellfire, but there is mention of a possible judgment and at the very least a consequence of opposing God.  Can you imagine bowing before the Creator of the universe, every sin and rebellious notion exposed?  I shutter at the thought.  But, if hell was a natural progression of these events why is it not mentioned?  Shame...then eternal hellfire.  It's interesting that there isn't even a suggestion of such a judgment here.



I like this passage when I think about that moment
Zeph 3:8-9 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.
For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

Nations is Goyim as in gentiles

All His burning anger==> purified lips of all people
I don't see Dante's vision here

Amen!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2011, 02:27:10 AM »
 :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Online micah7:9

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2011, 03:22:10 AM »



Isaiah 45:23; King James Bible
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Right.  Guess who said that? :bigGrin:





Jesus, Redeemer of my soul,
O gracious God of Israel!

Its just me, is there a difference?

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Hebrews 9:27 After death comes judgement
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2011, 11:36:13 PM »
Quote
25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

And we know from Paul that those are Israel who are circumcised in heart--the children of the promise.

And one wouldn't bow to the Lord or confess his name unless one were circumcised in heart.

He is not one to force people to bow to him.  They will bow because they recognize his glory and his righteousness, and that by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, since all will bow,  all Israel will be saved meaning all will be saved.



8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]


16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:


 21 But concerning Israel he says,

   "All day long I have held out my hands
   to a disobedient and obstinate people."[l]

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew


11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Israelites not saved but yet is saved. From this complexity Paul writes we can conclude that overall God saves all people, but yet in the current time frame only a remnant get saved, and Paul is trying his best to save some of them.