Author Topic: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me  (Read 5205 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« on: November 25, 2010, 07:43:17 AM »
Matthew 7: 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'  (KJV)

Assertion;  this verse proves some will think they know God, that they have done His works, and will expect to get into heaven;  when in fact, they will be judged by God, refused entry into heaven, and either cast into hell for eternal torment, and/or separated from Him for eternity - or, be cast aside to be permanently destroyed.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 02:25:48 AM by jabcat »

Offline Ross

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2010, 11:02:28 AM »
Hi;
Assertion some think they will know God is good. Many will claim to know Christ. They are doing some of those miracle things today.
BUT they never knew Christ. They know of Him, and use His name, but they do not know Him personally. This seems to because they are trying to claim their postion through their own efforts instead of death to self and alive " In Christ."
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 08:58:49 AM »
So it was not for christians at all but to the disciples.
In that case the requirements are even strickter.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 05:21:40 AM »
In context Jesus is talking about the end times, the day of the lord, hence many who say on that day have we not done many works in your name? Since they are doing works or claim to do works in Jesus name, either

1. They were false miracle workers, Jesus said many false christ shall arise saying I am the christ and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect.

2. They did great works but had no charity. The apostle Paul said that works with out charity is of little value , nothing but a loud annoying noise, so they work hard but their heart is not right before the lord. A bit like a violinist, who tries to play, in a angry mood, the sound infuriates, rather than produce fruit of beauty.

3.  They were charlatans who claimed to do miracles, but were false workers who made merchandise out of the sheep, fleecing the flock with vain words and false teachings. Hence Jesus calls them workers of lawlessness.

I think the second or third option is the most likely, for those of option 1 are likely to be false ministers of the devil, transforming themselves into agents of light and thus have no interest in the real Jesus, but serve a false Jesus. I have seen some of these workers of option 1, and they are very deceptive beyond imagination, one key to recognize these false workers is that they deny Jesus as the son of God, but see him as a master or teacher, they also have other new teachings. I tell you this so that you are warned in advance if you come across them, to not be sucked in by their apparent miracle powers. John said to test every spirit, ask whether Jesus/Yahushuah has come in the flesh.

, when these false workers or wolves from all options or rather option 2 and 3, who desire to escape judgment will not be granted Noahs ark of escape, whether that be the "come up hither", or to the desert prepared for the woman, where she is nourished and spared from the dragon.

So this verse is not talking about sheol, or eternal hell fire, because fire produces light, and a spirit does not gnash teeth. The parallel to these verses I believe are found in the book of revelation, where those who knew their masters will but did not do their masters will, will be beaten with many stripes.
Thrust out of the kingdom into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:07:05 AM by thinktank »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 05:49:11 AM »
You do know that Jesus is talking to the disiciples and giving them the proper instruction  for their walk. It would not be sheol, it is Gehenna, for it is a judgement for those who are his disciples.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 05:53:32 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline urpilgrim

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2010, 02:29:35 AM »
At this time of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, God was still in covenant relationship with Israel only. God's plan was (and again one day will be) to reach Israel first, and then, through Israel's instrumentality, reach the nations (Gentiles -- see Mk. 7:27; Isa. 60:3).

Christ's earthly teaching ministry was clearly one of confirmation. The record of Scripture is again quite clear: the purpose of the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ was to "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Rom. 15:8).

Christ did not come with a new message, but rather His teaching was one of confirming the promises of the Old Testament Scriptures (Matt. 5:17). We must remember that this backslidden nation was near to God by way of her covenants (Eph. 2:12). Christ was calling these "lost sheep of the house of Israel" back into right relationship with himself through the Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Matt. 4:23; 10:7-8). John the Baptist introduced this ministry (Matt. 3:2-3; Mk. 1:2-6).

There are certain things which are common in all dispensations. We may apply the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ, just as we would any other teachings of the Old Testament. Yet just as with Old Testament teaching, we must always remember that while ALL Scripture is written FOR us, it is not all written TO us, nor is it all ABOUT us.

In the "Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) Christ's earthly teachings were TO Israel, just as in Paul's letters (Romans Philemon) Christ's heavenly teaching ministry is TO the Body of Christ.

The first thing that Paul reveals to us concerning the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ is that it was clearly to the Circumcision. The record of Scripture is quite clear that Christ "was a minister of the Circumcision" (Rom. 15:8). Jesus Christ, while on earth, dealt exclusively with Israel, until that is its final rejection of Christ just before His death and the Upper Room discourse. (c.f. Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24; Rom. 9:5; Eph. 2:12).

So when we come to scripture like Matt. 7:21, we need to remember to whom it was intended for. Christ here is speaking (IMO) to and of the Nation of Israel. The words of the Matt5-7 (The Sermon on the Mount) is a message of the Kingdom then and yet to come. Israel is the one being alluded to here as being prevented to enter the Kingdom and not us Christians of this age, the age of Grace. There's just too much do and don't do to be for us.

This I believe will keep us from much confusion when trying to interpret the Scriptures I hope. My  :2c:

Grace and peace
If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!

Offline CHB

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 08:10:16 AM »
urpilgrim you are so right.  :thumbsup:

I think this is the very thing that causes so much confusion and why most cannot reconcile with the salvation of all. Jesus plainly said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24. The Covenants were to Israel not Gentiles. Covenants have rules and regulations, doe's and don'ts, laws. Gentiles are not under any laws. Most people mix the two. Paul said to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2Tim. 2:15). 

There are so many works and laws that are talked about in the Bible till that is what mainstream religion focuses on. Religion cannot see past these laws, the same vail remains even today (2Cor. 3:14-15).

The mistranslation and misuse of words such as punishment, damnation, forever, eternal ,and everlasting are a hindrence in understanding a lot of scripture. Some religions use the blaspheme against the Holy Gost to show that not all will be saved. "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" (Mark 3:29).

CHB

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 08:41:30 AM »
This seems like a pretty popular verse the Self Righteous use to tell people that they are not good enough to get into heaven, because they just missed by that self righteous persons standards.  However that verse seems more geared to the Self Righteous Christians.  I think prophecy, wonders and exorcisms are great things.  However they do not appear to be required for salvation.  So it appears that these people have very little of a case in righteousness.  This reminds me of Jesus story on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ect.(Dont really remember the rest off hand).  These all reminded me of simple acts of mercy, where that person is not trying to pump up their high ego.  They were surprised that Jesus commended them.  So it sounds as if these people had nothing else to make a case, like feeding the hungry, visiting the lonely, comforting the miserable or housing the homeless.  Reminds me of those worldwide Catholic Charities where people go to those third world countries to help those less fortunate.  And I think there are other Christian Charities.  However I have never heard these nuns working in those charities, or the priest, ministers or laymen casting judgment or blabbing about Hellfire.  And Im sure most of the people at Tentmaker see the importance of basic acts of mercy.  All these acts appear to create justice by switching a wrong to a right.  But the doctrine of Hellfire represents endless revenge and no justice.  No wonder these people who work in Charity can barely even speak Hellfire.  Reminds me highly of the Christians who can claim righteousness on exteriors, like music, dress, clean language, or appears sinless.  And there are those who dont even observe the weightier matters, being based primarily on Love.  However the whole idea of Hell contradicts the very essence of love.  So they seem to take on the smaller matters, without any love create only a sense of pride, self righteousness, and judgment against others.  So they seem so surprised that their puffed up self righteousness is deflated when they have little to offer for righteousness, but some silly works with no charity.  They appear to not have Jesus spirit, but the spirit of the Pharisee.  Most of the people I have the most respect for are those who have a living spirit of Christlike Kindness, not this dead spirit of observance of dead laws.  In fact, I find it hard to respect those who brag about righteousness because they observed a specific code of conduct.  This reminds me of a story someone told me about how they prided themselves in never being arrested.  He stated that being arrested means someone did something wrong.  One person told them that both Paul and Peter were arrested.  And the person claimed that they did something wrong. 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 02:25:56 AM »
At this time of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, God was still in covenant relationship with Israel only. God's plan was (and again one day will be) to reach Israel first, and then, through Israel's instrumentality, reach the nations (Gentiles -- see Mk. 7:27; Isa. 60:3).

Christ's earthly teaching ministry was clearly one of confirmation. The record of Scripture is again quite clear: the purpose of the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ was to "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Rom. 15:8).

Christ did not come with a new message, but rather His teaching was one of confirming the promises of the Old Testament Scriptures (Matt. 5:17). We must remember that this backslidden nation was near to God by way of her covenants (Eph. 2:12). Christ was calling these "lost sheep of the house of Israel" back into right relationship with himself through the Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Matt. 4:23; 10:7-8). John the Baptist introduced this ministry (Matt. 3:2-3; Mk. 1:2-6).

There are certain things which are common in all dispensations. We may apply the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ, just as we would any other teachings of the Old Testament. Yet just as with Old Testament teaching, we must always remember that while ALL Scripture is written FOR us, it is not all written TO us, nor is it all ABOUT us.

In the "Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) Christ's earthly teachings were TO Israel, just as in Paul's letters (Romans Philemon) Christ's heavenly teaching ministry is TO the Body of Christ.

The first thing that Paul reveals to us concerning the earthly teaching ministry of Jesus Christ is that it was clearly to the Circumcision. The record of Scripture is quite clear that Christ "was a minister of the Circumcision" (Rom. 15:8). Jesus Christ, while on earth, dealt exclusively with Israel, until that is its final rejection of Christ just before His death and the Upper Room discourse. (c.f. Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24; Rom. 9:5; Eph. 2:12).

So when we come to scripture like Matt. 7:21, we need to remember to whom it was intended for. Christ here is speaking (IMO) to and of the Nation of Israel. The words of the Matt5-7 (The Sermon on the Mount) is a message of the Kingdom then and yet to come. Israel is the one being alluded to here as being prevented to enter the Kingdom and not us Christians of this age, the age of Grace. There's just too much do and don't do to be for us.

This I believe will keep us from much confusion when trying to interpret the Scriptures I hope. My  :2c:

Grace and peace

 :thumbsup:  Earthly ministry (very much mostly) to the house of Israel (He did help the Caananite woman, at her insistence).  Then He died and rose again for us all.  Each in his own turn.  Hallelujah.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 02:52:25 AM by jabcat »

waitinontheLamb

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 12:34:04 AM »
Regardless the reason, the fact is that Jesus did not say that they could never come back. He said depart. I have sent my child to her room before because of bad behavior. The time in there is intended to correct the behavior. But she has never (yet) been banished there forever.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 01:49:13 AM »
Regardless the reason, the fact is that Jesus did not say that they could never come back. He said depart. I have sent my child to her room before because of bad behavior. The time in there is intended to correct the behavior. But she has never (yet) been banished there forever.

And I think this is the key.  While Jesus is clearly speaking to the nation of Israel, the question that comes to mind is if he is also speaking to us as well.  It's hard for me to imagine that he isn't.  All too often I see scriptures that seem difficult from a UR stance explained away by "well they were not speaking to us".  For me to believe that, I would have to believe that Jesus was teaching Old Covenent law abiding practice....so very little of what Jesus said has relevance to our walk.  I would suggest this stance is similar to the understanding that Jesus speaking about Gehenna was only about the judgment of 70 AD.  I believe both were speaking not only of events in that time to those people but painted a much broader stroke...to Gentiles and across time.  If not, I would be more of a disciple of Paul than that of Christ.  It's not a stance that makes sense to me.

Instead, I believe there will be those across time and ethicity who will fit into this category that Jesus is speaking of in this passage.  And I believe their fate will be the refiners fire of Gehennna...whatever that entails.  But, I have come to believe that will not be forever...and kolasis is truly a pruning.  Away from me...doesn't mean forever. 

This is merely my understanding today.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 02:34:59 AM »
As, ( should have said this the last post)I understand the Word of God, the Bible as a work that has been and is working in each and every man(that man is speaking as well of woman.)
We, at least I at one time tryed to figure, reason, and understand this Word of the OT and the NT as a type of history, to learn from. A history that one learns in schools, colleges and seminaries, but I do not anymore accept that anymore. This Word, be it the Ot or the NT is being worked out in me, in you, in all of His creation. Should it be tangible and a phyiscal hurt or good thing, it is God working it out in me. We, mankind exisit by Him, in, Him, and from Him. We know in part.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 05:15:40 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 02:48:08 AM »
Regardless the reason, the fact is that Jesus did not say that they could never come back. He said depart. I have sent my child to her room before because of bad behavior. The time in there is intended to correct the behavior. But she has never (yet) been banished there forever.

And I think this is the key.  While Jesus is clearly speaking to the nation of Israel, the question that comes to mind is if he is also speaking to us as well.  It's hard for me to imagine that he isn't.  All too often I see scriptures that seem difficult from a UR stance explained away by "well they were not speaking to us".  For me to believe that, I would have to believe that Jesus was teaching Old Covenent law abiding practice....so very little of what Jesus said has relevance to our walk.  I would suggest this stance is similar to the understanding that Jesus speaking about Gehenna was only about the judgment of 70 AD.  I believe both were speaking not only of events in that time to those people but painted a much broader stroke...to Gentiles and across time.  If not, I would be more of a disciple of Paul than that of Christ.  It's not a stance that makes sense to me.

Instead, I believe there will be those across time and ethicity who will fit into this category that Jesus is speaking of in this passage.  And I believe their fate will be the refiners fire of Gehennna...whatever that entails.  But, I have come to believe that will not be forever...and kolasis is truly a pruning.  Away from me...doesn't mean forever. 

This is merely my understanding today.

 :bigGrin:  My belief is the first thought needs to be "who was Jesus primarily speaking to, and about what"  ("I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" - Mt. 15:24).  Then, I need to consider how universally it may apply (as at the very minimum, everything is written for our learning, while some things seem more clearly intended for all generations as well);   all the while being very careful to make the attempt to not misapply the primary meaning as being to me/us, and totally away from the setting in which they were spoken - thus mixing the messages and not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

I don't believe that's easy, but if looked at in that perspective, rather than just automatically mish-mashing everything together like much of mainstream does (and I have done), I believe it's at least a good place to start.  I guess that's why it's called rightly dividing;  it can be wrongly done ... :2c:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 03:11:36 AM by jabcat »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 05:51:09 AM »
Who is the lost sheep of the house of Israel?   
Mat 15:24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
ISRAEL
H3478 yiśrâ'êl  he will rule as God. From H8280 and H410 H8280 śârâh A primitive root; to prevail:[/b] from H410  strength[/[/u]b]
Those who hear His voice at that time will not have a need to depart, but those who walked the steps, and repeated words, and did the works for self, these are offered "Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness!"
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 7:21:23 I Never Knew You, Depart From Me
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2011, 07:37:12 AM »
The whole context of the verse is very interesting.

Mt. 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

I see this as then Jesus responded to her - as "out of her time" (the Gospel had not as yet gone to the Gentiles).

 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.