Author Topic: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it  (Read 26234 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #200 on: October 23, 2011, 12:58:22 AM »
NIV   The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
NASB   For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
NLT   If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace.
MSG   Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life.
BBE   For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
AMP   Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
NRSV   To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
NKJV   For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Here and the next verse Romans 8:7 are the only place I've found the term carnal mind.  In this sense I'd say no Jesus did not have a carnal mind, and I think that may be more likely what people are referring to when they say carnal mind, He didn't have His mind set toward the flesh.
look up the word Flesh[ Sarx] it means Carnally Minded= we are No longer FLESH but Spirit~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #201 on: October 23, 2011, 01:03:19 AM »
   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me? 

Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #202 on: October 23, 2011, 01:16:40 AM »
   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me?
# No bud,~ the Flesh is a SYMBOL for the carnal MIND being enmity to the Spirit, the very cause of death in the Garden ~It wasnt Eves LITERAL flesh that seperated  was Her mind~ the MIND that NEEDS Tearing away, The carnal Mind is the Old man wihch perishes,[ saved as Passing throu the flame] as its the cause of SIN[ seperation] its this very Mind which persishes   in the LOF,  , The mind has to DIE for Him To LIVE, Hence we  are  cast Into the Flame[ Love]Destroying the MIND as In Baptism[ symbolic death] so we can be written in the BOOK of Life .

No Christ Did not have  a Carnal Mind as the Carnal Mind Birthed By Eve was the cause of Death , Christ was Tried as WE were But came to Fulfil HIS will and desire making them ONE~he was Carnal mind FREE, as again the god of this world being the Carnal Mind had No part In Him~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Pierac

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #203 on: October 23, 2011, 01:37:52 AM »
Why do you still seek so strongly to be right in your understanding of verses, individual Greek words,  and such nonsense?  :dontknow:

What part of given to you do you not understand?

Joh 5:36  "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Joh 17:4  "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

PAY attention!

Joh 18:9  to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

Are you really listening...

It's all about to whom it has been given... nothing about our understanding of Verses, Greek readings and such orthodox teachings!  :2c:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #204 on: October 23, 2011, 02:20:42 AM »
I don't guess you have a new thread you'd like to start here, huh Paul? 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/

 :laugh2:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #205 on: October 23, 2011, 02:22:49 AM »
grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all glory be to God unto the age

study to show yourself approved, a workman that need not be ashamed


one plants, one waters, but GOD GIVES the increase 

 :bigGrin:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #206 on: October 23, 2011, 04:47:30 AM »
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.
I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.

I agree with all of that :o)
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Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #207 on: October 23, 2011, 05:07:18 AM »
Paul are you talking to me?

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #208 on: October 23, 2011, 06:13:12 AM »
   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me?
# No bud,~ the Flesh is a SYMBOL for the carnal MIND being enmity to the Spirit, the very cause of death in the Garden ~It wasnt Eves LITERAL flesh that seperated  was Her mind~ the MIND that NEEDS Tearing away, The carnal Mind is the Old man wihch perishes,[ saved as Passing throu the flame] as its the cause of SIN[ seperation] its this very Mind which persishes   in the LOF,  , The mind has to DIE for Him To LIVE, Hence we  are  cast Into the Flame[ Love]Destroying the MIND as In Baptism[ symbolic death] so we can be written in the BOOK of Life .

No Christ Did not have  a Carnal Mind as the Carnal Mind Birthed By Eve was the cause of Death , Christ was Tried as WE were But came to Fulfil HIS will and desire making them ONE~he was Carnal mind FREE, as again the god of this world being the Carnal Mind had No part In Him~

Didn't He say not my will but yours be done?  doesn't that imply He had a will that could have been contrary to Fathers?  Yet He submitted to the Fathers will.  I understand the mind has to die for Christ to live.  Isn't that what He did?  He died to His own human/flesh/carnal desire to not take the fathers cup.  He condemned sin in the flesh, and He lived.

Couldn't the god of this world having no part in HIm, mean He didn't let it win, His spirit took dominion over His mind, He only did what He saw His Father do, only does His Fathers will.  We see that in the temptation in the wilderness.  If satan is the carnal mind then He had to have it otherwise how was He tempted?  If satan isn't the carnal mind then I could see that hold up better (that He didn't have a carnal mind) because then satan was outside of Him.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #209 on: October 23, 2011, 12:23:47 PM »
Quote from: ww
A great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:
Clear. Nobody can answer my questions. So the faith card is played. Faith doesn't make things more or less true. Neither does the true meaning of the verse alter my faith.
My guess is that my posts/proofs aren't even read. Quick glance at best.

2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be time when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but they will accumulate teachers to themselves according to their own desires, who tickle the ear,

Bye.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #210 on: October 23, 2011, 02:33:20 PM »
I read em WW, and value your opinions/points.  That doesn't remove the fact that I and everyone else desire to see you be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #211 on: October 23, 2011, 03:15:38 PM »
Quote
Didn't He say not my will but yours be done?  doesn't that imply He had a will that could have been contrary to Fathers?  Yet He submitted to the Fathers will.  I understand the mind has to die for Christ to live.  Isn't that what He did?  He died to His own human/flesh/carnal desire to not take the fathers cup.  He condemned sin in the flesh, and He lived.

Couldn't the god of this world having no part in HIm, mean He didn't let it win, His spirit took dominion over His mind, He only did what He saw His Father do, only does His Fathers will.  We see that in the temptation in the wilderness.  If satan is the carnal mind then He had to have it otherwise how was He tempted?  If satan isn't the carnal mind then I could see that hold up better (that He didn't have a carnal mind) because then satan was outside of Him.

:icon_flower:

Amen He did not do HIS own will but came to Do the will of His Father ,He being the SOUL of HIS father, Mind \Heart \Will and desire~ unlike Eve ,shown as OUR soul who did , SUCCUMBING TO the serpent, The Serpent likened to the Ego Had no part of Him, the god[ Father of this World being the Serpent, the serpent gave the seed to eve and she birthed the carnal Mind, Therefore Christ didnt have one ~ He was Spiritual Minded of the Holy Spirit from Birth, but subjected to the same trial\ordeal of men, HE WAS Spiritually minded not Carnally Minded, To be Carnally minded is DEATH , to be Spiritually Minded is LIFE and Peace, is how im given to see this :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 04:10:28 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #212 on: October 23, 2011, 05:14:41 PM »
Quote from: ww
A great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:
Clear. Nobody can answer my questions. So the faith card is played. Faith doesn't make things more or less true. Neither does the true meaning of the verse alter my faith.
My guess is that my posts/proofs aren't even read. Quick glance at best.

2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be time when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but they will accumulate teachers to themselves according to their own desires, who tickle the ear,

Bye.
That's so unfair, ww.

I do read your posts.  I usually enjoy your posts a lot.

Does that mean I always have to agree with you?  I often agree. 

But, sometimes I don't.   And, sometimes I just don't know.

And, sometimes I'm not interested in the topic you are addressing.

That's seems a pretty normal response to me. 

But, your thoughts are valuable to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #213 on: October 23, 2011, 07:14:03 PM »
Jesus was not carnally minded, but he was tempted in all manner like as we are. He had flesh. He had to mortify it daily. He was born of a woman, born under law. His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time, and to me, that is the testimony of love. Only love can set us that free to obey. Yet, he sweat, as it were great drops of blood, as he wrestled in the garden. He pleaded with his Father to find another way. I love you Lord Jesus, your humanity astounds me.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #214 on: October 23, 2011, 08:39:37 PM »

His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time...


That doesn't completely sit right with me.
Jesus tells us the He expressly came to do His Father's Will.


















« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 09:33:06 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #215 on: October 23, 2011, 09:12:42 PM »
I often wonder what is the will of Jesus. Was that will perfect as he is perfect or was that will his carnal will?

Consider this. What if the will of Jesus was not evil or sinful, but rather simply a different path?.

E.g Father God wanted Jesus to go down the path of the cross. What if Jesus also had a divine plan or will, that desired to be e.g the king of Israel and rule the Earth with his rightoeus will. Nobody can say that this was evil, but yet Father wanted Jesus to go to the cross, so Jesus says not my will but thou will be done.

Also consider maybe Jesus had 3 different paths

Path 1 - Obey Father and trust Him
Path 2 - Trust Himself and become King and do great works
Path 3 - His carnal flesh nature temptations that pull him as gravity towards selfishness and sin e.g rule the Earth as King but through sinful means e.g control, fear, mezmerizing.




Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #216 on: October 23, 2011, 09:54:59 PM »

 :bump:
Amen He did not do HIS own will but came to Do the will of His Father ,He being the SOUL of HIS father, Mind \Heart \Will and desire~ unlike Eve ,shown as OUR soul who did , SUCCUMBING TO the serpent, The Serpent likened to the Ego Had no part of Him, the god[ Father of this World being the Serpent, the serpent gave the seed to eve and she birthed the carnal Mind, Therefore Christ didnt have one ~ He was Spiritual Minded of the Holy Spirit from Birth, but subjected to the same trial\ordeal of men, HE WAS Spiritually minded not Carnally Minded, To be Carnally minded is DEATH , to be Spiritually Minded is LIFE and Peace, is how im given to see this :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #217 on: October 23, 2011, 10:06:43 PM »

His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time...


That doesn't completely sit right with me.
Jesus tells us the He expressly came to do His Father's Will.

Yea, but he never said it was easy ;o)
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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #218 on: October 23, 2011, 11:20:29 PM »


He was joyful about it!


Hebrews 1:
8; But about the Son he says,
   "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
   a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9; You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."



Offline Molly

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #219 on: October 24, 2011, 04:30:13 AM »
I learned something new today....
There were punctuation marks in the ancient Greek texts.
Article: http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf
Main site: http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php

 
Page 2.
There are three marks [or, 'points'], a period [or, 'a finished point'], a semi-colon/colon [or,
'a middle point'], and a comma. On the one hand, the period mark is a sign for a complete
expression, but a semi-colon/colon [or, 'a middle point'] sign is breathed according to those
Page 3.
the full point. The point at the top of the line (.) (stigmhÉ teleiÈa, 'high point') was a full stop;
that on the line (.) (
uJpostigmhÈ) was equal to our semicolon, while a middle point (stigmhÉ
meÈsh) was equivalent to our comma. But gradually changes came over these stops till the top
point was equal to our colon, the bottom point became the full stop, the middle point
vanished, and about the ninth century A.D. the comma (,) took its place. About this time also
the question-mark (;) or ejrwthmatikoÈn appeared. These marks differed from the stiÈcoi in
that they concerned the sense of the sentence. Some of the oldest N.T. MSS. show these
marks to some extent. B [Codex Vaticanus] has the higher point as a period, the lower point

for a shorter pause.
9

Page 19
As the response from Rome states clearly, the color of the lower point in
Codex B in Luke 23:43 after the Greek word for "today" is brown, not black or darker as is the
ink of the second hand or the even later scribal corrector.
Even if it were a mark by one of the other two scribes, it would still serve as an indication of the
belief of the scribe identified as to how the sense of the text was understood at the time it was
corrected. But since the point is apparently of the original "brown" color, then the mark after
"today" in Codex B in Luke 23:43 should be included as part of the good reasons which indicate
the correct understanding of Luke 23:43 according to one of the best available texts.



The way I read the above:[/size][/color][/font]

I say to you today; you shall be.....[/size][/color][/font]

I didn't comment on this because, quite frankly, I am not able to comment on it.

This is a fight between Greek scholars over punctuation, and you have found one that disagrees with the rest, and how can I judge who is right and who is wrong?

To do that, I would have to study for years in a very particular part of a very esoteric field, ancient texts in Greek and Hebrew.

Plenty of people have already done that for me.  To find one that disagrees with the majority does not serve your cause.

But, what I can say, is that the rendering of most translations, 'Today you will be with me in paradise,' is confirmed by other statements in the NT and OT that point to Jesus being alive in Spirit during those three days, and actively doing things with respect to the dead.

Jesus himself gives Jonah as the sign of his death,  and we all know that Jonah, although in the belly of the whale, was alive.

Common sense also tells us that it is impossible to kill the Spirit of God, and Jesus was filled with the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Therefore, I reject fights over comma's in favor of a more overwhelming body of evidence, the actual scripture itself, that Jesus, although dead physically, was alive in Spirit during his time in the grave.  And it is this Spirit which revivified his physical body.

Now I didn't say any of this at the time you posted because I was hoping to avoid any more fights over comma's and moving on.

But, you accuse me of not reading your posts by virtue of my silence, so now I feel I have to respond, if only to say, sometimes I don't respond because I choose not to prolong a fight and sometimes because I simply have nothing positive to say.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 04:43:27 AM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #220 on: October 24, 2011, 07:10:35 AM »


He was joyful about it!


Hebrews 1:
8; But about the Son he says,
   "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
   a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9; You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mar 14:35-36)

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
(Heb 5:7-8)

Every high priest is taken from among men

It could be said that his zeal for the Father's house consumed him. It could be said that his joy sustained  him through his sorrows and his pain. He sympathizes with our weakness because He knows them from experience. Great is the mystery of godliness.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline gkm

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #221 on: February 04, 2012, 04:42:12 AM »
Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall.  Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations.  According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations.  How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

The church apostatizing is different from its cessation of existing, in my view. In fact, the church started going into error, or apostatizing even before the close of the NT cannon, for in the NT we read of both grave errors (sins) in various churches, and prophecy that many would fall away from the faith.

No church is correct in every point of doctrine, in my view. There is doctrine which is essential for
receiving eternal life, and there are doctrines which affect the quality of life lived. I believe that in
most if not all Christian churches there are true believers, even though they may believe many false
doctrines. In my view, all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, have it. Since I believed
I have found out that I held many false doctrines, but I don't think that those false beliefs kept me
from being saved. I did not believe in UR until quite recently, and don't believe that kept me from
being saved at all. It's just the after coming to this new knowledge, I can explain much I could not before, and I am much more at peace with all of life. My view of God greatly changed when I learned the truth of UR.
In Christ,

Gary McNees gkmcnees@gmail.com

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it" Thomas Jefferson

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #222 on: February 04, 2012, 05:07:43 AM »
Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall.  Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations.  According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations.  How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

The church apostatizing is different from its cessation of existing, in my view. In fact, the church started going into error, or apostatizing even before the close of the NT cannon, for in the NT we read of both grave errors (sins) in various churches, and prophecy that many would fall away from the faith.

No church is correct in every point of doctrine, in my view. There is doctrine which is essential for
receiving eternal life, and there are doctrines which affect the quality of life lived. I believe that in
most if not all Christian churches there are true believers, even though they may believe many false
doctrines. In my view, all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, have it. Since I believed
I have found out that I held many false doctrines, but I don't think that those false beliefs kept me
from being saved. I did not believe in UR until quite recently, and don't believe that kept me from
being saved at all. It's just the after coming to this new knowledge, I can explain much I could not before, and I am much more at peace with all of life. My view of God greatly changed when I learned the truth of UR.

That's how I see it too.  I had a guy (no longer posting here) a few years ago tell me he didn't believe anyone that believed in ET was as yet reconciled to God (as he put it).  I've said several different times, the Bible doesn't say believe in UR and you will be saved...although I believe the revelation of UR is of course a very important one, being given faith to believe in Jesus as Savior is what the Bible says it takes to be spiritually reborn (saved).   
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 07:07:39 AM by jabcat »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Matt. 16:18 ...and the gates of Hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it
« Reply #223 on: February 04, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »
Say not, "We are children of Abraham". I can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. You are of your father, the devil.....he was a murderer from the beginning.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com