Author Topic: Eternal Death  (Read 4157 times)

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Offline rjohnson741

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Eternal Death
« on: June 10, 2012, 02:37:26 AM »
If eternal death and eternal torment are true then death claims a huge victory over millions possibly billions of sentient beings in the lake of fire since according to eternal torment they remain dead in their sins forever. If eternal death and eternal torment are true then the 15th Chapter of 1st Corinthians ceases to have any real meaning. But the 15th Chapter of 1st Corinthians makes it perfectly clear that sin and death are not victorious in God's universe. The wages and sting of sin is death and "death is swallowed up in victory." Thus Paul taunts the defeated power with the rhetorical question "Where O Death is thy victory? Where O Death is thy sting?" If God's revealed will for the salvation of all is frustrated, if God's revealed will to make all alive is frustrated, if God's revealed will to be all in all is frustrated in even one instance because of sin and death, then death can truthfully answer-----"HERE I AM. MY VICTORY IS RIGHT HERE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE"  But this is a rhetorical question. The question is not suppose to have a reply. There should be complete silence since death is a defeated enemy. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 06:49:47 AM by rjohnson741 »
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 09:26:37 AM »
It's hard for me to be silent. So please allow me to speak just one word.

Welcome!
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 06:52:52 PM »
Thanks for the welcome. Hope we have some good discussions.
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline lomarah

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 07:07:35 PM »
When WW says hard what he really means is impossible.  :wink2:

Welcome!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 01:38:54 AM »
If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, then how can anyone still be dead after that happens?  And how can hell (the grave) still exist after that?  That which is implied can be just as important as that which is obviously stated.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 03:51:25 AM »
"The last enemy that will be abolished is death" 1Corinthians 15:26.(NASB). How can death be eternal if death is abolished or destroyed? And the Bible makes it clear how death is to be abolished or destroyed---"For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER" 1Corinthians 15:22-23(KJV). Jesus Christ abolishes or destroys death by making everyone alive!!
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline jugghead

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 06:05:13 AM »
"The last enemy that will be abolished is death" 1Corinthians 15:26.(NASB). How can death be eternal if death is abolished or destroyed? And the Bible makes it clear how death is to be abolished or destroyed---"For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER" 1Corinthians 15:22-23(KJV). Jesus Christ abolishes or destroys death by making everyone alive!!

and the truth shall set you free .............. free from the fear of death
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline Deena

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 06:59:56 AM »
Jugghead, in Richard Rohr's book "Falling Upwards" he says, "the truth will set you free, but it will usually make you miserable first."  Interesting.

Offline jugghead

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Jugghead, in Richard Rohr's book "Falling Upwards" he says, "the truth will set you free, but it will usually make you miserable first."  Interesting.

It did, I was on a roller coaster ride. When God first brought it to my attention, I was constantly up and down, back and forth asking, how can any of that be true. It took Him years, but He showed me how.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 03:28:56 PM »
Jugghead, in Richard Rohr's book "Falling Upwards" he says, "the truth will set you free, but it will usually make you miserable first."  Interesting.
She's gone to bed now.  (She just turned 84 Friday the 3rd.)  Hopefully I can remember to get her to respond tomorrow.  I think Marion (as well as another friend of mine, though now deceased,) not only knows Richard Rohr personally, but that he was influential and well liked by her.  There are tapes of his around the house.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 03:32:49 PM »
"The dead in Christ shall rise first," is what is written; NOT, "The dead shall rise first."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline gasman

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 03:57:51 PM »
Amen.

Those who judge themselves now so they will be not judged later. For judgment must begin in the house of the Lord. Those who have put to death the old man, the carnal man and put on the mind of Christ will be 'dead' in Christ. Only Christ remains. Untouchable by the fires of Gehenna. Purged, salted with fire, the wood, hay and stubble has been consumed and the gold remains.  Then with joy shall we draw waters out of the wells of salvation. Don't you just love 2nd, 3rd and 400th chances?

Offline Molly

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 04:05:27 PM »
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

--1 thess 4:16,17



So who are "we who are still alive and are left"....?


The 'dead in Christ' are nekros, a corpse.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 04:12:58 PM »
Amen.

Those who judge themselves now so they will be not judged later. For judgment must begin in the house of the Lord. Those who have put to death the old man, the carnal man and put on the mind of Christ will be 'dead' in Christ. Only Christ remains. Untouchable by the fires of Gehenna. Purged, salted with fire, the wood, hay and stubble has been consumed and the gold remains.  Then with joy shall we draw waters out of the wells of salvation. Don't you just love 2nd, 3rd and 400th chances?

I like that!  Thank you.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline CHB

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 01:22:35 AM »

So who are "we who are still alive and are left"....?

Hi Molly,

I have wondered if it wasn't Paul and the rest of believers of his day?

CHB

Offline jugghead

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 04:02:02 PM »
Amen.

Those who judge themselves now so they will be not judged later. For judgment must begin in the house of the Lord. Those who have put to death the old man, the carnal man and put on the mind of Christ will be 'dead' in Christ. Only Christ remains. Untouchable by the fires of Gehenna. Purged, salted with fire, the wood, hay and stubble has been consumed and the gold remains.  Then with joy shall we draw waters out of the wells of salvation. Don't you just love 2nd, 3rd and 400th chances?

It is in this that I understand (IMO) the second death, we first suffer death (separation from the father) through our own understanding and then if "a truth" (not "THE" truth; just a part of the truth) is revealed to us, (by the Spirit, either through another man or straight from the Spirit) we take pride in that understanding of what was revealed and we can suffer a second death (a second separation) through understanding what men might teach us.

We constantly have to judge ourselves in what we think is righteous and unrighteous and surrender our own ability to choose what we may think is righteous and align it with the Father's understanding of good and evil (what is righteous and unrighteous).

If we choose to remain in our own understanding, or the understanding of other men (not increasing in His), our second death will be when we stand before the Father and He reveals the truth to us in who we are and what we understood, that revealing will bring our own judgment against ourselves that we were wrong in what we understood.

I do not believe that judgment comes from the Father, only the revealing of truth and it is by that revealing that our own judgment of what is righteous and what was unrighteous will be brought down upon us and we will want to hide from our own judgment of ourselves in that we are not worthy to know His righteousness.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline rosered

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2012, 01:56:48 AM »
 great posts..... I read them all ,,
 
went to a funeral today and  was shocked at how well the  preacher  spoke ..  on Life and
 not the gloom and doom   :eek:
   there is something  wonderful going on in this  moment  in  time to the glory of God .
 
 though the 'men [kings ] of the earth are not aware

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2012, 09:28:10 AM »
So who are "we who are still alive and are left"....?


The 'dead in Christ' are nekros, a corpse.
1 Thessalonians 413-18 (Concordant Literal) . . .
13 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation.
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words.

The Lord Himself will be descending out from the heavenly realms, manifesting into the earthly and lower reality IN a shout of command, IN the voice of the Chief Messenger, and IN the trumpet of God.  In these aspects of manifestation His presence will become realized:  IN an archangel's shout of command, not only the sound, but also the working of the command to bring about alignment with what is so ordered.  The trumpet is certain members of Christ's body, a prepared vessel, producing specific resonances as a result of the wind of the Holy Spirit blowing throughout the changing chambers of it.  There are seven Voices sounding.  There are seven thunders resulting from the bright lightening of great power exchanges.  There are seven trumpets not making an uncertain sound.  These will bring about irreversible changes among the sons of men.

The dead, those whose bodies have corrupted in death and who have been placed in Christ, those also who have experientially entered the baptism into His death shall be rising first.  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, who have not already ascended, entering by the work of the Spirit at that time into things pertaining to incorruption and immortality, those not yet participating in the feast of tabernacles, shall at the same time be snatched (a form of harpazo meaning "seized, possessed," not "away" as even the CLT has added) but possessed together, that is we are brought into a level of simultaneity with them in clouds which are the dust of His feet, with them in the glory clouds to meet the Lord in the air, the lower atmosphere which is that relating to the earth.  And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.  What the Lord possesses us into is not something we come back out of.  So shall we ever be with the Lord.  It's something right here on earth, but we will no longer be subject to what Adamic life was, such as gravity, need for food, or protection.  These changes will occur among humanity over a period of time as we are being brought into a simultaneous experience and manifestation with one another and the Lord.

This is unlike the Rapture doctrine, which says we will be caught up only to return in another second coming after some un-agreed upon and never mentioned in the Bible length of time.  This gap between two second comings is not mentioned in the Bible, so of course neither are the timings related to them.  Neither are we going to suddenly disappear to some other Biblically unspecified place.  "When He appears we shall appear with Him in Glory!"  Here is where the answer of the travail will come forth.  Here, from the birth pangs of all creation shall be birthed those born of God, those whose bodies are placed into the complete liberty and authority of being physically born of God.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 09:50:03 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline lomarah

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »
Wow, awesome reFORMer, and VERY exciting!!!  :boogie:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 03:19:25 PM »
Rosered,
Having been to several funerals in my lifetime, preachers, pastors, and priests all (usually)refrain
from using the funeral to say the deceased will be ET'ed.
I did hear one say the deceased was a lowlife, theiving, adultering, murderer and that just about everyone that knew him knew he was going "straight to hell." (Is there a curved or crooked way to hell?)
Since for ET'ers the matter is settled at death, often one of the 3 P's will state that they had a talk with the person or family  of the person and "Knew that they believed in God."
At least, it's not like when an atheist dies, "All dressed up and no place to go."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline rosered

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 03:46:39 PM »
Rosered,
Having been to several funerals in my lifetime, preachers, pastors, and priests all (usually)refrain
from using the funeral to say the deceased will be ET'ed.
I did hear one say the deceased was a lowlife, theiving, adultering, murderer and that just about everyone that knew him knew he was going "straight to hell." (Is there a curved or crooked way to hell?)
Since for ET'ers the matter is settled at death, often one of the 3 P's will state that they had a talk with the person or family  of the person and "Knew that they believed in God."
At least, it's not like when an atheist dies, "All dressed up and no place to go."
     
 ded2daworld ,  :iagree:
 I hear you   all to well ,  hee hee  :Peace2:
 
 But  it seems  those called to preach the good news   can sure be distinquished by those whom  STILL  accuse  the brethern   before God day and night ..
 the voices above and below 
It was great to go to a funeral and actually not leave depressed  , but lifted 
 I could be happy for those  leaving this place  and excited to   go  myself    :laughing7:

 now that is faith  believing  and   getting    some positive results  :dsunny:
 

 If you compare  70 years more or alot less [average  life in the flesh]  to  eternity 
 how much damage can you do in one breath of vanity ?
 
 If God   moves in you  during the  days of your flesh   and you are  aware your  of His  Spirit and life, it  goes way beyond the  moment  you leave this place of  learning   experience and torment 
 of knowing good and evil    , it does take that sting out of death the last enemy   for sure
 

Offline shawn

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 03:57:30 PM »
"The last enemy that will be abolished is death" 1Corinthians 15:26.(NASB). How can death be eternal if death is abolished or destroyed? And the Bible makes it clear how death is to be abolished or destroyed---"For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER" 1Corinthians 15:22-23(KJV). Jesus Christ abolishes or destroys death by making everyone alive!!

But don't you know?  Death is indeed destroyed, and that is why punishment does not have an end. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 05:07:16 PM »
Yep, the saints are resurrected to eternal life.
That's why the people in hell don't die.
Well they do die but very slowly. So slow they never are completely dead.
 :doh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Eternal Death
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2012, 11:03:34 PM »
Just as Jesus is not being eternally tortured for the sins of the world, (thus showing ET is false)
Jesus is not dead either like he should be if eternal death were true.
Not to mention, what loving Father would WILL that any of his children have no concious contact with him ever again?
Eternal death MIGHT be possible if God was not Love and Life, but creating human beings that after a very short time on earth
are gone forever?  Nope.
BUT, eternal death was my halfway point between ET and UR in the belief scheme of things.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"